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Agreed. Give em true Apoc stats/cost and move em over. Like the Deathstrike, they have no place in regular games of 40k.

Grey Templar wrote: if they made Marines fluffy they would be OTT.

No, because everybody else would have "fluffy" uber stuff.

We'd be playing 40k-munda, with 2000-pt armies of 11 Marines fighting 20 Orks or a dozen Eldars.

jp400 wrote:Agreed. Give em true Apoc stats/cost and move em over. Like the Deathstrike, they have no place in regular games of 40k.

Honestly, I think terminators are fine the way they are. The only way to make them beefier with a points cost bump that I could see would be to either allow them to carry more weapons (storm shield and thunder hammer and storm bolter, for example) or to give them a rerollable invul save or something.

SaintHazard wrote:

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

Except that some Sergeants (specifically, Veteran Sergeants, who are not represented on the tabletop as such, beyond some helmet markings) are drawn from First Company.

Spot on, Sargeants ARE basically Veterans, upping Veterans may also mean upping Sargeants.

Ailaros wrote:Honestly, I think terminators are fine the way they are.

The only way to make them beefier with a points cost bump that I could see would be to either allow them to carry more weapons (storm shield and thunder hammer and storm bolter, for example) or to give them a rerollable invul save or something.

Agree. Termies are just fine as-is.

The way to bump them is to let them buy a Veteran Skill.

Why just not make all their weapons master-crafted? As codex chapters usually maintain around 100 suits, it could go fluff wise that the weapons have been around just as long. It wouldn't be too much of a point kick as a characteristic bump.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Considering how elite you have to be to even wear terminator armour, don't you think they would have 'better than marine' stats? I was thinking of trying this:

5 5 4 5 2 5 2 10 2+5++

So basically, another WS, BS, Toughness, Initiative and wound...Is this that bad? I'd be willing to pay more for them of course.

I just never understood why they were so...weak. You have to be a great veteran to wear the armor, so you'd probably have the +1 BS anyway. The higher initiative may be stupid, considering how large they are in the first place.

How does....60 points sound per model? I was thinking they should be less than..Sentinels, but more than regular terminators...

Thoughts? This would be a house rule thing.

Um, no. Your terminators would be cheaper than some crisis suit load-outs and at least twice as killy.

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

yeah i kind of want to see something like that, i don't get why vanguard, sternguard and regular veterans all have the same statline and are only different because of wargear (and powers derived from wargear ie: the sternguard special ammo). I think giving them +1 WS or BS would be a little much, but something like reroll 1's in melee/ shooting for vanguard and sternguard, respectively, might be neat to see, but overall its quiet unecessary...

Joetaco wrote:

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

yeah i kind of want to see something like that, i don't get why vanguard, sternguard and regular veterans all have the same statline and are only different because of wargear (and powers derived from wargear ie: the sternguard special ammo). I think giving them +1 WS or BS would be a little much, but something like reroll 1's in melee/ shooting for vanguard and sternguard, respectively, might be neat to see, but overall its quiet unecessary...

Then go play Second Edition.

But wait, aren't Terminators taller than regular run-of-the-mill Veterans? Surely that calls for enhanced stats!

Not so! My (metal) Termies (on 25mm slottabases) are smaller than my regular (plastic) Marines. Therefore, Termies stats should be reduced to S3 T3!

Nonsense! Your Terminator are ancient, and therefore should have W5 each!

Waitaminit, have we just gone back full circle?

If you want stats with more differentiation than there is, move to a d10 or higher. Hell, use inquisitor rules. At least they're free. As is, I think terminators are fine, and agree that eldar need a bump in Ws/Bs far more than marines.

You can get as much differentiation with a D6 as you can with a D10...

Okay, rephrase: Widen the range of numbers you use to represent stats, or Hell, use inquisitor rules.

And that would improve the game how?

....I didn't say it would improve the game. I said I like terminators the way they are. For those who feel that "terminators are not represented by the stats as being demonstrably better than tactical marines" expanding the range of numbers could allow greater differentiation between models for a more representative "feel" of how good they are in the fluff. Thus my advice. I personally think it would slow the game down and complicate things, but it would allow for a more nuanced approach.

Perhaps Tacticals should be nerfed to WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 so that Termies are clearly bettter.

How to make Terminators 'better' with no additional cost/modelling: Count the light on their shoulder/head as a lasgun shot at BS 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps Tacticals should be nerfed to WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 so that Termies are clearly bettter.

That would make them guardsmen w/ power armour... for 3x the points cost

Space Marines were just humans in Power Armor...

Something that it helps to remember is that numbers can multiply out, so that an improved Strength characteristic and improved Attack characteristic is more than twice as good as having either. Consider the effect of WS5 and BS5 on Venerable Dreadnoughts, even accounting for the tremendous survivability that Venerable confers.

You can sort of point out the Chaos Space Marine Chaos in this fashion, taking the Chaos Space Marine as the basic package and taking each increment as 1pt basic +1 per interacting decrement. So Berzerkers have quite the mark-up from the increased Weapon Skill, Attacks, and Furious Charge. Each decrement is likewise 1pt basic and -1 per interacting decrement.

I had a post way in the past where I showed that Chaos Space Marine Possessed apparently could be pointed like this, along with Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines.

Guys, I think all they need is plus 1 BS for Terminators, plus 1 WS for their Assault brudda's

Why though? That would overpower them.

You're saying Marines stuck in Terminator armor have the skills of a Captain for shooting?

and the skills of a Chaplain/Librarian/etc. for close combat?

They were made that way so they'd hit Space Marines (and their equivalents) on a 4+ in CC, facilitating the need for a Chaplain or a Captain or so on, meaning the Terminator couldn't simply smash the entire army apart.

and BS5? Isn't BS4 fine already?

Well If terminators (wearing tactical dreadnought Armour) are going to be beefed up so much may suggest ...

Dreadnoughts
5 5 5 6 3 5 2 10 2+4++
Venerable Dreadnoughts
6 6 5 6 4 5 2 10 2+3++
IronClad Dreadnoughts
5 5 5 8 3 5 2 10 2+4++

SR:- FNP, Eternal warrior, MC (relentless, fire two weapons)

So whats wrong with them at the moment?
You see them being used enough by marine players, so that should be an indication that they are fine.

1st company vets are just that.
They either take to the field as sterns, vanguard or wearing TDA.
Dont see why terminator armour should start to increace thier stats ontop of evering they get.

You get a 2+/5++ with a powerfist and stormbolter for 40 points?
Seem elite to me.
Basic marine is 16 points, give him a fist and storm and thats 56 points on its own, not including extra stats and the saves.

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Grey Templar wrote:Marines(not BAs) are not cheezy.

we are perfectly balanced with an even ratio of good, uber and suckish units.


if they made Marines fluffy they would be OTT.

Fluff is written a very large part from Empire perspective, an Empire not given to accurate or unbiased review (I mean, Tau vehicles are named after Empire classifications, for example). There's a large chance that taking the fluff to the next level of meta-thinking, the Marines as portrayed might actually be fairly accurate. Who is to say that heroic victories might actually not have been such heroic ones, but rather the result of massively disproportionate response forces? Empire historians? Not likely.
I will stop my fluff discussion short, there, though, since I truly don't find WH40K fluff to be interesting enough to read much closer than on-a-glance (reviews of a certain Goto keep me from delving deeper into Eldar fluff, especially).

Oh ok... my Wraithguard are even harder to kill than termies (do you know how resilient Wraithbone is...) so i should get a 2+/5++ save too!!
Upping termies to a frankly... slowed level will open a whole can of worms for other armies 'elite' units.

Termies get a 2+ save (in other armies thats usually very rare)
Termies get a 5++/3++ (in most other armies a 3++ is unheard of, a 5++ is hard to get)
Termies get relentless and can access ML and AC (both very good weapons and much better than some armies move+fire weapons)
The entire unit is equipped with PF,LC,TH or PW... (yea... Eldar can get all PW aswell... on a T:3 unit... oh and burna boys but they have a 6+ save)
How good must these be? termies are not 'movie marines' and no unit should be as good as some of the suggestions described on this thread... especially with KP rules (if it was VP, go nuts! at least you pay the price for your unit when it dies)

Termies could be better but then so can many units.

I'll just throw my voice in. I don't have any problem with how terminators perform (other than the fact that my terminators are from codex dark angels and thus don't have the 3++ or better cyclones but they're otherwise very cool). The suggestions from page one don't make sense to me, increased strength, toughness, wounds, or initiative would be wrong. I also just noticed that librarians/chaplains no longer have ws5/bs5 but ws5/bs4 in the 'other' new marine codex's instead of the 5/5 that they used to have.

I feel as though, being veterans in general, they should have either higher ws, or higher bs, or both, compared to tactical marines. GW even reduced the ws/bs of scouts to represent their lower amounts of experience, how then should veterans be represented with their higher amounts of experience? Higher ws/bs does make sense. But could be a bit much considering how other units in different armies all ready compare to terminators and veterans.

I like the idea of them having master crafted equipment available, or perhaps extra "targeting sensors" installed in their terminator/power armor that allows them to reroll hits. Or maybe their extra years of experience means they are better able to use the targeting sensors that they have which represents the reroll.

Its a very touchy subject thought. They are all ready a great unit from my point of view, making them even better isn't really required. But I can understand the feelings behind wanting their extra decades/centuries of experience being represented in their stats or rules or gear.

I can always dream of the day when terminators have special issue ammo for their storm bolters, basically being the same but shooting twice as much being a storm bolter vs a regular bolter.