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yeh that would mean you're now

WS4 BS4 STR4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD9 3+/3+

but tbh that just makes them tougher marines that always get a normal marine save. hmm

Super tactical dreadnought armour?

Isn't that a dreadnought?


Har har har

hmmmmm

Don't change their saves,

just have them able to reroll to hit when shooting and in combat.

If chaplain is with them then his rule becomes reroll to wound!

Reroll to wound Thunder Hammers.. ouch

I fail to see why people think that they actually NEED improvement... especially C:SM assault terminators, they're quite cheap and powerful for what they do.

It's simple.

They don't live up to the hype of being the ultimate infantry you can field as a SM or CSM

What better equipped infantry units do the Space Marines have?

that is part of the problem.


Fluff wize Terminators should be 2 wounds, WS and BS6 and T5.

normal marines would be 1 wound, WS and BS5.


but then again Fluff =/= game

Uh, why should they be "be 2 wounds, WS and BS6 and T5"? How are those number justified by the background?

Nurglitch wrote:Uh, why should they be "be 2 wounds, WS and BS6 and T5"? How are those number justified by the background?

+1

If anyone's terminators should be along those lines... i'd say chaos is more deserving then ANY SM ones.

CSM:
"Hail False god follower. To get my +1 (insert stat here), I had to sell my soul and dedicate my life to a dark chaos god. I have also physically been fighting longer then you, or your father have been alive! I have sacked entire city's and razed entire planets in the name of the dark gods!!! My base cost is high, and to upgrade my +1 I pay even a higher premium! What have you done?"

SM:
"Well, um.... I AM the poster child of games workshop."

CSM: "......"

Corennus wrote:Or why don't you have a 3+ save that's invulnerable.

That's an Assault terminator only option ...

Corennus wrote:It's simple.

They don't live up to the hype of being the ultimate infantry you can field as a SM or CSM

That's because the hype is stupid, not because they unit is bad. The unit is awesome.

Marines are not gods upon the battlefield (in fluff OR in tabletop). But terminators get pretty damn close (again, in both), given that you have to use a friggin' lascannon or meltagun to get through their armor, and even then there's their storm shield and refractor field.

*waves hands like a madman*

If we're upgrading Termies for this magical fluff value - can we upgrade the other virtual termies?

MANZ might want some love.
Then there's those bodyguard suit people the Tau have....

Just saying before you add those extra wounds - check out those that aren't named SPACE MARINEs and identify their counterparts.

and yet Battlesuits somehow have 2 wounds even though they are piloted by FWs.

Yeah, they're also Dreadnought sized and only have T4 Sv3+...

Just putting it out there that the big Ts aren't just named Terminators.

SaintHazard wrote:I propose that my Chaos Daemons all get S100, WS50,000, and I15, and a -1+ invuln save. Also, FNP. Twice.

If we're going to start defining our statlines based on fluff, I will accept nothing less.

This made me lol... Thanks, Hazard.

But in all seriousness, I do agree that Terminators are just fine the way they are. If you go around changing the Veterans' stats based on fluff alone, then you're looking at almost a complete overhaul of the SM Codex.

Grey Templar wrote:but then again Fluff =/= game

The problem is that fluff =/= fluff. That stuff is all over the shop, depending on who the book is focussed on. If it's a marine book then the marine protagonists will slaughter incredible numbers of mooks, each marine worth a hundred of anything else. But if it's a guard book, marines are pulled way back in power levels.

sebster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:but then again Fluff =/= game

The problem is that fluff =/= fluff. That stuff is all over the shop, depending on who the book is focussed on. If it's a marine book then the marine protagonists will slaughter incredible numbers of mooks, each marine worth a hundred of anything else. But if it's a guard book, marines are pulled way back in power levels.

Don't know orks seem to be doing well across the board, sure they die a bit but seem to be enjoying it as much as winning.

Hey, if they're all dead, it don't count as beat!

The only terminators that I even see worthy of ANY upgrades are the CSM and the DA (excluding GK from comparisons). I mean c'mon, the CSM have been fighting for millena and sacrificed their souls. And the DA, well their book says that the first company fights in nothing BUT termi armor,which in my book would make them superior to C:SM termis. Even then maybe just a BS/WS up for the DA or some cool DA rule, and continue the uber-iworshipagod-ness for the CSM with a BS/WS up maybe.

You know, instead of improving the terminator assault and terminator squads, I'd suggest adding in either some kind of terminator command squad or terminator honor guard unit. Their 'elite among elite among elite among elite' status could allow for some stat boosting or special gear options. Like terminators with relic sword and storm bolter. Unit leader has 3 attacks. Options for special issue ammo for their storm bolters, maybe some combi-weapon options. Or bring back the vet skill options just for this squad. There are lots of cool things they could do with a terminator honor guard/command squad.

Maybe give them Slow and Purposeful. That would improve them, and make them a little more like what they look like. Since it is kind of a drawback and bonus at the same time. Heck, give them some kind of lower initiative too if you want better armor. That gak's supposed to be clunky.

Terminators all ready have relentless, which is what slow and purposeful gives as a bonus. So giving them slow and purposeful in addition to that would just be a way to tone them down.

Ah you got my point then. Sorry but I just don't see something that clunky able to 'run' very fast. Their clunkiness should imply a low initiative (though their weapons already do that for the most part) but if you want their armor to be better, I think its only fair to make it slower.

Their slowness or bulkyness is currently represented by being unable to sweeping advance after an enemy flees from combat. But I can understand wanting some other kind of penalty added on if they gain some other kind of benefit.

It would be preferable to unify the rules that represent being slow and clunky. Though it would be better if Slow and Purposeful was like what Terminators have instead of what it currenty is, somewhat because it makes no difference to them to cross difficult terrain, but also because it makes them vulnerable to Combat Tactics without requiring the implementation of actual tactics to pull it off successfully (such as using a Walker to lock the enemy down while the squad Falls Back).

Okay make them T5 W2 with a 2+(5++save) Just cost them like an obliterator with Mark of Nurgle thrown on top of the unit cost and I will throw in the WS5.

Let's see 75 for an oblit and 50 pts for MoN? So a squad of 5 costs 425. At that rate you can have the heavy weapon for "free." So you can have super termies but then they are a significant hit on your FoC.

Sadly I have come to realise that there's no room for any kind of background related improvement within the confines of 40k today - even by increasing their base wounds by a mere 1 point (which I'd argue background wise isn't out of the question for Marines in general) - you'd be effectively doubling the ammount of damage/lastability of such an Elite unit. Simply beefing something up and then adding points is something that would cause statistical tremors across the board. If we did it to one thing we'd have to escalate it to others - all those Chaos Terminators would have to improve, then maybe all Chaos Lords should receive an additional wound (especially if we equipped them with Terminator armour) giving them the same wounds as a Hive Tyrant or a Bloodthirster - which can't be right?

As it stands terminators are veteran marines and no more than that - so why should we adjust Toughness, Strength & wounds to their base and not to other Marines? Because of their armour? They get a 2+ 5++ anyway to represent this. I now personally feel that if were true to the background they could reasonably be S&T 4(5) maybe with additional WS and or BS, even possibly a wound - but there's simply no room in the game as it is to make that improvement without suitably escalating other material.

Asherian Command wrote: Terminators are alot taller than their power armored brethren and have been serving for centuries.
Space Marines as they age get stronger, bigger, and alot more intellegent.

True to a point, because a marine wears Terminator does not mean that he has served the Chapter for centuries though, the fluff states that only acts of near suicidal bravery grants a marine access to the First Company and thus the right to wear TDA. There is no implication within the statement that length of service has any bearing on a marine's initiation into the First Company.

the reason is if you collected SM with those stats your army would cosist of 5 marines for about 1500 points...