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Why the hell would they be T5? They're still Marines, not some super-entity. Increased WS and BS, I might be able to understand (I disagree with it, but I understand where you're coming from), even increased Initiative I suppose (Though again I disagree, as Terminator armor is not exactly easy to move around in) but increased toughness? No.

Well...plague terminators

Yeah, I agree. I should probably edit the first post now that I realize how stupid some of those things are

Honestly, out of all the possible changes to terminators, making them T4 (5) to represent the sheer bulk of their armor is the most reasonable one I can think of. It works for bikes, after all. Of course, I would require you to do truescale conversions on them, to get that

Samus_aran115 wrote:Well...plague terminators

What about them?

They are a completely separate issue. The fact that they are veterans in TDA isn't what makes them T5.

Monster Rain wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Well...plague terminators

What about them?

They are a completely separate issue. The fact that they are veterans in TDA isn't what makes them T5.

... everyone knows the only way for a space marine to get ...
A) get toughness 5
B) two wounds
... is for him to go up into the mountains and grab a wolf and start riding round on it.

Bromsy wrote:Honestly, out of all the possible changes to terminators, making them T4 (5) to represent the sheer bulk of their armor is the most reasonable one I can think of.

No problem, but they lose the 5++ that they got to represent the bulk.

I could see them with T4(5) and then with a 2+/6++. Then reduce storm shields to a 4+ invulnerable again.

yeah, that 3++ for storm shields has got to go, that was my biggest WTF moment when the new codex came out.

It actually does make sense though. Consider that Captains and Chapter Masters have Iv4+, so Storm Shields would be superfluous. If they scaled back the Iron Halo to Iv5+, then they could scale back the Storm Shield to Iv4+.

Personally I think it would be better if they conferred an Iv5+ or +1 to the unit's existing invulnerable saving throw. The upgrade to a Captain would remain the same, and it would scale nicely.

Nurglitch wrote:so Storm Shields would be superfluous.

...except to models who are not a Captain or Chapter Master (or Chaplain, don't forget the Rosarius).

Van Vets can also take Storm Shields, as can Assault Terminators... both of which benefit greatly from a 3++ save.

Nurglitch wrote:If they scaled back the Iron Halo to Iv5+

Although this isn't an unreasonable solution, but...

Nurglitch wrote:Personally I think it would be better if they conferred an Iv5+ or +1 to the unit's existing invulnerable saving throw. The upgrade to a Captain would remain the same, and it would scale nicely.

I like this solution the best. It would give a 5++ save to anyone without an invuln save, and a 4++ save to Assault Terminators, giving you an actual reason to take TH/SS still, versus with a 5+ save there'd be no use for it.

As noted, the T5 could come from the armor itself, not the veteran marine.

As it is, I've always found Terminator armor to be rather underwhelming, especially in terms of its ability to survive small arms fire, something that it should be almost invulnerable to.

I'd love to see a proper solution, but since GW is never going to put armor save modifiers back in 40K (though they should), I'm not sure what that solution should be!

One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

Of course they go down to small arms fire. Those idiots keep taking off their helmets!

I mean, seriously. You're wearing the man-portable equivalent of tank armor, and you take off your helmet?

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

Huh!

I never thought about that - nice solution and it has the added benefit of working within the existing rules too!

Elegant - I like it!

Terminators should have the following in my opinion:

Special Rules:

Honoured Veteran: May reroll all rolls to hit when shooting.

Terminator Armour: May reroll failed NORMAL armour save.

Also Terminators should have Strength 5 to set them apart from normal power armour.

I do think they need to bring back the options for Veteran skills even if you have to pay for them.

5 pts for Tank Hunters of Furious Charge was golden back in 4th.

If Chaos Terminators can take Mark of Khorne (extra attack) Mark of Nurgle (better toughness), Mark of Tzeentch (better Inv Save) and take combi-weapons then normal terminators should get:

Crux Terminatus: 5 ++ save

Crux Argentum: 4 ++ save at cost of 15 pts per model.

Master Crafted Storm Bolters: Firing bolts at AP 3 for 20 points per model.

Wait, CSM termies can purchase ALL marks at once?

Grey Templar wrote:Wait, CSM termies can purchase ALL marks at once?

No, they cannot.

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

The basic armor save isn't an issue that needs fixing.

There is enough AP1 & AP2 out there that they'd could have practically unlimited re-rolls of the Sv2+, because they'd never take it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

The basic armor save isn't an issue that needs fixing.

There is enough AP1 & AP2 out there that they'd could have practically unlimited re-rolls of the Sv2+, because they'd never take it.

AP1 and AP2 is found in special and heavy weapons, the number of which a given squad can take is generally limited. The "small arms fire" that Alpharius is referring to is typically mass bolters/lasguns/shuricats/devourers/etc., all of which allow the Terminator an armor save.

But anyone who's rolled armor saves for Terminators can tell you about how many are going to inevitably fail those armor saves.

Hell, just last night I killed three Chaos Terminators in one turn with Missile Pods, which are AP4. Bad rolls happen.

JohnHwangDD:

I agree, but I also disagree with the notion that better Terminators are a good idea in the first place. But I figured out I might get better mileage trying to offer reasonable alternatives to some of the crazy that gets thrown around in threads like these.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Sooo... I guess we can agree that 5 BS and 5 WS would be okay?

No

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

I agree, but I also disagree with the notion that better Terminators are a good idea in the first place. But I figured out I might get better mileage trying to offer reasonable alternatives to some of the crazy that gets thrown around in threads like these.

See, there you have it!

Wait...

Nurglitch wrote:But wait, aren't Terminators taller than regular run-of-the-mill Veterans? Surely that calls for enhanced stats!

They all have the special rule: "watch the door sill...oops too late"

SaintHazard wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

The basic armor save isn't an issue that needs fixing.

There is enough AP1 & AP2 out there that they'd could have practically unlimited re-rolls of the Sv2+, because they'd never take it.

AP1 and AP2 is found in special and heavy weapons, the number of which a given squad can take is generally limited.

Bad rolls happen.

When I started in 3E, it was with Eldar fielding I4 DNCCW-armed Wraithlords supported by all the AP2 Starcannons I could muster. When I play Guard, I start with 3 Demolishers backed by as many Plasma and Melta as I can pack into the list, and I would have no shame in turning the dial up to field 6 Demolishers in a "competitive" environment. As far as I'm concerned, the amount of AP1/AP2 available is effectively unlimited compared to the amount of Sv2+ that I might face. If someone wants to test that with a mass Sv2+ army (GKts or Deathwing, I would gladly see that across the board compared to pretty much anything else that I could face).

Indeed, they do. But it's just as easy to get a long string of "good" Sv2+ passed before you hit that "bad" clump.
____

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

I agree, but I also disagree with the notion that better Terminators are a good idea in the first place. But I figured out I might get better mileage trying to offer reasonable alternatives to some of the crazy that gets thrown around in threads like these.

I agree that Termies are OK as-is. Given the silliness in the thread, I'm not sure you'll have much success, but I wish you well in your endeavor!

I was trained as a philosopher: brainstorming solutions to non-existent problems is what I do best.

Why enhance thier stats though?

So what people want is a unit of captains in terminator armour for less points?

I dont see why the suit would increace anything except thier save (which shows the toughness on its own)

Weapon wise they are fine.

Wounds - This will cause problems.
terminators are hard enough to kill at times with a 2+/3+
Why give them another wound?
It will simply become a game of wound allocation with normal termies (chainfists and heavies to change them)
And the storms are still tough.


Fluff means nothing in this discussion.
If you want movie marines, go for it.
Marines have had thier stats scaled down alot to make the playable, without doing that, seems kinda pointless.

Fluff has SOME bearing on the units in the game, otherwise, what's the point?

I do think Terminators need a little something more to justify their points and how relatively easy they are to kill.

But, as always, this may be more of my 2nd Edition legacy than anything else.

Alpharius wrote:Fluff has SOME bearing on the units in the game, otherwise, what's the point?

I do think Terminators need a little something more to justify their points and how relatively easy they are to kill.

But, as always, this may be more of my 2nd Edition legacy than anything else.

T4(5) would work. They are just glorified marines in heavy armor, and this would sustanntially decrease the effectiveness of small arms. But they would have to cost more.