Better terminators?

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**Guitardian**

Eldar have centuries of experience and far more technology (plus they actually understand theirs). They dedicate a few thousand years to learning one martial style and end up with a WS5 for it if they get 'lost' on the exarch path, and usually it's a 4 for aspects, and a 3 for Guardians (who are supposedly trained soldiers and hundreds of years old too). Putting it in perspective like that I think Terminators are just fine.

**Dracos**

... And if its a Vet Sgt (not normal Tactical/devastator/assault marine) sgt, he would get the stat boost too. I fail to see the inconsistency. Unless you are saying that normally Tactical/devastator/assault marine sgt are from the first company.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guitardian wrote:Eldar have centuries of experience and far more technology that they actually understand. They dedicate a few thousand years to learning one martial style and end up with a WS5 for it if they get 'lost' on the exarch path, and usually it's a 4 for aspects, and a 3 for Guardians (who are supposedly trained soldiers and hundreds of years old too). Putting it in perspective like that I think Terminators are just fine.

The problem I have with this is that Orks are WS 4 as well, and nobs can hit WS 5 with a waaagh banner. From that perspective, it seems odd that the best Vets SM can offer only have 4 WS.

**SaintHazard**

Dracos wrote:Unless you are saying that normally Tactical/devastator/assault marine sgt are from the first company.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Not all the time, but often.

**Dracos**

SaintHazard wrote:That's exactly what I'm saying. Not all the time, but often.

I thought that was more of the exception to the rule. I guess it makes sense as is if this is the case.

**Asherian Command**

Sorry but i read index astartes and it said terminators are greater veterans than the run of the mill veterans.
Sorry if i spoke out of term.
I read alot haven't checked it out for a while

**Dark Scipio**

SaintHazard wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

You pulled information out of your ass, with no cited sources. Wrong information.

Terminators have centuries of experience, yes, but so do Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. So do all Veterans, regardless of what kind of armor they're wearing.

A Terminator is nothing more than a First Company Veteran wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

They definitely don't need a T boost (T4 is bad enough as it is), and a WS and BS boost is debatable, since they wouldn't be that much better than the already elite Space Marines from which the First Company is chosen.

And a second wound is ridiculous. Nobz are big and hard to kill just by virtue of being hard to kill, not because they're wearing tank armor. So are Tyranid Warriors. Terminators, on the other hand, are nothing more than squishy humans inside of tank armor. Once you get through said armor, it's easy to kill the human inside.

Yes, they're hard to kill. That's the 2+ armor save. Yes, they have a shield generator built into their armor. That's the 5+ invuln save.

Terminators are fine as they are.

Totally agree, beside they dont have shield generators.

They could get a 1+/5++ Save, only ignored by AP1not 2. And perhaps BS 5 but the stats now seem right too.

I remeber 3rd Edition start, when the got now inv. save and they alwasy went do instant, also because we had a more Hvy Weapon heavy game.

**SaintHazard**

Dark Scipio wrote:Totally agree, beside they dont have shield generators.

Last I read, the 5+ invuln save has something to do with the bit of the Emperor's armor in the Crux Terminatus, hence "basically" a shield generator, though not literally one. Similar to a Rosarius, but not as powerful.

**JohnHwangDD**

Samus_aran115 wrote:Considering how elite you have to be to even wear terminator armour, don't you think they would have 'better than marine' stats?

So basically, another WS, BS, Toughness, Initiative and wound...Is this that bad?

5-man Squad with W2 base means damage allocation just got a lot better, like Nobs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guitardian wrote:Eldar have centuries of experience and far more technology (plus they actually understand theirs). They dedicate a few thousand years to learning one martial style and end up with a WS5 for it if they get 'lost' on the exarch path, and usually it's a 4 for aspects, and a 3 for Guardians (who are supposedly trained soldiers and hundreds of years old too). Putting it in perspective like that I think Terminators are just fine.

Or, we can just bump the Eldars to WS5 for CC Aspects, and WS7 for CC Exarchs, and so on, rippling through all of the Codices as they get updated.

**Maelstrom808**

Yeah, at some point fluff has to take a hit for game balance.

**Samus_aran115**

Sooo... I guess we can agree that 5 BS and 5 WS would be okay? How much would you be willing to pay for that? I'd say...55?

Wait. Obliterators have 2 wounds....Never mind. They also have about 7 enormous weapons.

**JohnHwangDD**

I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

**Mahtamori**

Dark Scipio wrote:
SaintHazard wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

You pulled information out of your ass, with no cited sources. Wrong information.

Terminators have centuries of experience, yes, but so do Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. So do all Veterans, regardless of what kind of armor they're wearing.

A Terminator is nothing more than a First Company Veteran wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

They definitely don't need a T boost (T4 is bad enough as it is), and a WS and BS boost is debatable, since they wouldn't be that much better than the already elite Space Marines from which the First Company is chosen.

And a second wound is ridiculous. Nobz are big and hard to kill just by virtue of being hard to kill, not because they're wearing tank armor. So are Tyranid Warriors. Terminators, on the other hand, are nothing more than squishy humans inside of tank armor. Once you get through said armor, it's easy to kill the human inside.

Yes, they're hard to kill. That's the 2+ armor save. Yes, they have a shield generator built into their armor. That's the 5+ invuln save.

Terminators are fine as they are.

Totally agree, beside they dont have shield generators.

They could get a 1+/5++ Save, only ignored by AP1not 2. And perhaps BS 5 but the stats now seem right too.

I remeber 3rd Edition start, when the got now inv. save and they alwasy went do instant, also because we had a more Hvy Weapon heavy game.

No save may ever be better than 2+, if a save becomes better than 2+, then it is treated as 2+.

**Monster Rain**

JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

**Mahtamori**

Monster Rain wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

Undying and constantly resurrecting spirits inside the Eldar Psyche whom are masters of their aspect of the god of war with centuries of training and millennia of field experience - not counting down time between conflict. Pick a profile you wish, but make sure several of the numbers or two-figure

On a serious note, though, one point of WS or S is a LOT of difference.

**Jihallah**

Mahtamori wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

Undying and constantly resurrecting spirits inside the Eldar Psyche whom are masters of their aspect of the god of war with centuries of training and millennia of field experience - not counting down time between conflict. Pick a profile you wish, but make sure several of the numbers or two-figure

On a serious note, though, one point of WS or S is a LOT of difference.

Damn straight.

The only recommendation I would make (asides from certain people reading their codex) is make them slightly tougher, and maybe bring back that ol' rule (afaik) with terminators using their stormbolters as pistols in closecombat for a +1a. I do think they could benefit from more toughness, maybe +1T, maybe FNP or something that works like it, than a boost in any other area. Their offensive is fine really, but wasn't their save 2+ on 2-3 dice orginally (lol!)

**kill dem stunties**

Stopped readin after i saw the statline in the opening post.

Overpowered, t5 and 2 wounds is too much, your marines arent nobs. For the statline you posted they would need to cost like 85 points a model minimum, and pay 5 for thss like blood angels.

**Guitardian**

WS S T BS... the difference between a 3 and a 4 is huge. Okay, so IG are trained human soldiers. Stormtroopers are better trained human soldiers. Marines are trained and augmented human soldiers. Veteran marines are trained and augmented and experienced human soldiers. Terminators are trained and augmented and experienced human soldiers with very thick clunky armor. How many levels of Chuck Norris can we climb before the elite of the elite of the elite of the elite starts to become kind of silly? Just give them their nice saves, teleporting, asscannons, powerfists, landraider assault ramps, 4 accross statlines and leave it be. It's not as if they don't have enough going for them already when you compare them to other armies elite choices.

**Sageheart**

game wise i think they are all good, fluff wise all marines are awful, the game doesnt play them up as unstoppable killing machines which can hold back entire armies of guardsmen. but gamewise im okay with how they are now, an increase in BS or WS would be okay, but anything else may be OTT

**JohnHwangDD**

Monster Rain wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

9s, of course.

And the C'Tan are 10s and 11s, because that's how silly Codex escalation gets when we all start grabbing at Fluff and trying to make our stuff more and more uber.

**SaintHazard**

I propose that my Chaos Daemons all get S100, WS50,000, and I15, and a -1+ invuln save. Also, FNP. Twice.

If we're going to start defining our statlines based on fluff, I will accept nothing less.

**Mahtamori**

Hmm, I don't think it's really called for ridiculing this topic. I mean, one can disagree in so many other ways.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

9s, of course.

And the C'Tan are 10s and 11s, because that's how silly Codex escalation gets when we all start grabbing at Fluff and trying to make our stuff more and more uber.

1. Your avatar is perhaps the most distracting one I've ever seen.
2. C'tan are an ancient god, I honestly don't think normal WH40k was made for his Chuck Norrisness.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Just throwing this out here, if GW buffs the NORMAL terminator to suggested levels, what happens to the Grey Knight termies? They are, after all, the "elite of the elite of the elite of the elite". Not to mention the Grand Masters... WS/BS 8, W 7, T 9, 2+/2++ FNP?

**warspawned**

Personally I find most stats aren't indicative with the fluff/fiction to begin with - currently the Chapter Master is a Captain with bits of wargear and a bombardment a Captain would have the authority to make anyway. I think Terminator's should be a little bit tougher without having to have SS but in the current stat state I'd say give them either an extra wound, or make them T 4 (5) or give them a re-roll to their save. I've had too many Termies die from light small arms fire - and not masses of it either (although I am unlucky whenever I field them) and make their wargear master crafted or something and adjust points accordingly. Something like that anyway...

**Irdiumstern**

Oh god another "My Marines aren't leet enough" thread.
You know what's base T5? Daemon Princes. Terminators should not be as tough as a creature twice their size made of pure warp stuff.
BS 5? That's part of what your own Captains get, who are supposed to be a step up from Veterans.
WS 5? Honour Guard Chapter Champion, the best warrior of the chapter that's not a Captain or the chapter master.
See a trend here?

**SaintHazard**

Yeah, the trend is "BAW MY MARINES ARE STATTED WRONG".

Yes they are.

Yes, that's intentional.

Can my Necrons all be T6 and have a 2+ armor save, like they do in the fluff?

And can they come back from the dead regardless of what kills them or how many times they fail a WBB roll?

And their weapons rip apart your infantry, therefore wound on a 2+ and cause instant death on all unsaved wounds, right?

And they're AP2, right?

'Cause if we're going to start defining statlines based on fluff, I've got a LOT of changes to make to my non-Marine armies.

**jp400**

So I take it I am not the only one sick and tired of marine players crying that they don't have an even more uber and cheesy army then what they already do?

Hell, if your marines need to be this good, then my Chaos Marines should be able to one up you in every way, shape, and form. After all, our main 4 have only been fighting since the Horus Hersey and traded off their souls for mutations and gifts to make them even stronger and more brutal.

**SaintHazard**

jp400 wrote:So I take it I am not the only one sick and tired of marine players crying that they don't have an even more uber and cheesy army then what they already do?

I'm a Marine player, and I'm perfectly happy with my Marines' statlines. They can outshoot and out-crump most other armies and can already beat down most other basic models in the game in single combat. They do not need a buff.

Unless they're going to be an entire army of inch-high C'tan, in which case I insist they cost at least 300 points per model.

**Grey Templar**

Marines(not BAs) are not cheezy.

we are perfectly balanced with an even ratio of good, uber and suckish units.

if they made Marines fluffy they would be OTT.

**jp400**

SaintHazard wrote:
jp400 wrote:So I take it I am not the only one sick and tired of marine players crying that they don't have an even more uber and cheesy army then what they already do?

I'm a Marine player, and I'm perfectly happy with my Marines' statlines. They can outshoot and out-crump most other armies and can already beat down most other basic models in the game in single combat. They do not need a buff.

Unless they're going to be an entire army of inch-high C'tan, in which case I insist they cost at least 300 points per model.

Well said.

Nice to see a marine player with a level head.

**JohnHwangDD**

Mahtamori wrote:1. Your avatar is perhaps the most distracting one I've ever seen.

2. C'tan are an ancient god, I honestly don't think normal WH40k was made for his Chuck Norrisness.

You're welcome.

Nothing wrong with moving the C'Tan to Apoc-only.