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Ok, so here is the story. Our FLGS runs a league every year. This year, an ogre player came. He was sort of unclear about his experience level and said things like "I'm not that good." The league is intended as an incubator for newer players, and we try as best we can to rank people according to their power level. Since we weren't sure about this guy, we put in him a low division, with 2 people who've played less than 10 games each and another one of our guys.

Lo and behold, not only is the gentleman a highly accomplished warhammer player, he's also a complete and utter punk. Facing one of our kids, playing warriors of chaos, ogre boy took the leadership-modifying item and simply spammed panic tests (gut magic has a spell to do this) until all of the kid's units ran off the board. Win to the ogres. Note also that in the process here, ogre boy actually cheated by forcing the same unit to take more than one panic test per phase. This was the opponent who had to play him twice, and both games went the same way.

Facing a high elf list, ogre boy killed a unit of archers early, and then played point denial so that kill, just slightly over 100 points, got him the win since he lost zero. To accomplish this, he also deliberately slow-played to the point that it took four hours to reach the top of turn three, at which point the game store closed and the game had to be called. Win to the ogres.

Naturally, the two kids he pulled these shenanigans on were pretty discouraged, especially after he mocked them for not being able to do anything to him. The veteran gamers in our club (incl. me) are now in mama bear mode and out for blood.

As the league progresses, at the semester break all the divisions are reorganized. With his four wins in the first half (out of four), ogre boy is moving into the very top division with myself, and two other experienced players. Our goal is not just to beat him, but to humiliate him, frustrate him, cripple everything his army wants to do; in short, we want to demonstrate to him what it's like to have the kind of experience that he gave our newbies. My Canadian colleagues will understand: when the other team goes out of their way to rough up your guys, it's up to the veterans on the team to play even rougher, even if you have to spend some time in the box.

So. I play empire. I'm throwing the forum open: what disgusting dirty tricks can I play that will neutralize everything ogres want to do? I don't normally play this way, but this is a matter of principle.

Here's the general outline so far:

1) Ws10 pope on war altar (fencer's blades, speculum). Everything in the ogre list will need 5's to hit him except characters, which get speculumed to ws4 and then also need 5's to hit. Ogre boy likes to run a multi-character bullstar, so I should be able to stick it in place and then ignore it completely.

2) HelBlaster/engineer spam. Ogres do not like high-strength armor-wrecking shooting.

3)Priest/pope spam. I think I can undertake to make sure not one single gut magic spell will get off all game.

4) I'll combine this with a level 4 wizard to enhance my dispel rolls. He'll take heavens with the purpose of preventing all those s4 ogre attacks from ever hitting a damn thing (iceshard blizzard, curse of the midnight wind, ws10 pope will mean that ogre bulls or ironguts will only hit on 6's which they have to re-roll. Pha's protection from the pope wagon in reserve) He'll carry a rod of power to ensure he'll always have plenty of dice.

5) Lots of shooty fast cav to distract, confuse, avoid, and whittle down his units.

So far, we've got severely depleted units of ogres finally making it across the board to be met by his holiness, whom they'll struggle to be able to hit at all, while the rest of my army overwhelms the rest of his and then dogpiles on his bullstar. What I'm looking for is any ways to enhance this. Even softer-hearted players can pull out all the stops in good conscience; trust me, this guy's the kind of tool the hobby is better off without.

Ready, go!

Any idea what kind of list he runs? Your plan so far seems pretty solid though.

I would just skip the gaming and ask the prick to leave. Then I would allow him to leave only after apologizing to the beginner players and the store managers for deceiving everyone about his skill level.

That's just me.

What armies do you and the other avengers have at your disposal?

You'r empire plan seems solid. For several other races shadow will be pretty good too, epsecially the pit of shades. With dwarves you can totally screw his RiP spells over and then gunline his fat ass. And just for the fun of it try placing a comet in the middle of the board and then stand still and wait for him while you shoot him at long range.

Edit: And how could i forget my own lizards, just use light and the cube of darkness to mess up unbuffed Ogres with buffed saurus.

NightChild wrote:I would just skip the gaming and ask the prick to leave. Then I would allow him to leave only after apologizing to the beginner players and the store managers for deceiving everyone about his skill level.

That's just me.

I'd go with this idea. If he's going to be a WAAC type of guy and pretend to be a bad player just to achieve it, I really wouldn't bother playing against him.

I don't know how you can beat him, but let us know how badly he loses. I'm very interested now

Thanks for your input, everyone.

I hear what y'all are saying with regard to kicking him out. There's a couple problems with it. One is scheduling: half the league would have to have byes or something if he left, and then the scoring would be weird due to people with byes getting a draw. There are playoffs coming, and we'd like to maintain the integrity of the scoring system.

The other problem is a bit more personal; I'm looking forward to this.

His list so far (this was at 2000, and we're up to 2500 now in the escalation system) has been a horde of bulls (ironfists) with a tyrant, a slaughtermaster, and a bruiser BSB. Not sure about the items, but the tyrant is tooled for survival. Also a scraplauncher and the obligatory gnoblar troop. One of the characters in the bullstar had the crown of command.

Hoverboy, the division is me (empire), Ogre Boy, a skaven player who needs no help at all finding broken things to use (I anticipate his 2000 list rocking double pits and a powerscroll seer, as well as several warpfire throwers with their d3-multiwounding goodness) and a lizardmen player who's the leader of our club, and possibly the nicest guy God ever made. He brought a carnosaur to the league finals last season, is how nice he is. However, he does own a slann, which ogres have approximately zero tools to deal with.

This is the top division, and we'll have to see how our nemesis does now that he's fighting in his own weight class.

Feedback, ideas, etc, still welcome!

Oh, and as for my other armies, I have dwarfs in reserve, but the league rules require that you stay with the same army all season long barring a real catastrophe (by which I mean, the only exception we've ever made to this rule was when a guy got his whole army stolen from his car).

If he's rocking a Bullstar a 50 man Horde Greatsword unit with Wyssan's Wildform is hard to beat, especially if it's accompanied by a flanking detachment.

Or, you could be really, really cheesy and try to get off Purple Sun. It'd be hard, but if you could do it you'd essentially wipe the whole bullstar out in a turn. Give your Wizard the staff that allows them to save up to 3 power dice from the last phase, and then blow 'em all on Purple Sun. Sure, you'll probably miscast, but unless he rolls really lucky you're bound to kill at least half of the unit. It's still kinda risky though. Plus, you might not roll a 6 when you're choosing spells...

But yeah, Helstorm Rockets, Great Cannons, etc. are really great for aggravating Ogres.

NightChild wrote:I would just skip the gaming and ask the prick to leave. Then I would allow him to leave only after apologizing to the beginner players and the store managers for deceiving everyone about his skill level.

That's just me.

I would back this suggestion. Its the best way. If its so obvious get the store manager/club leader to warn him next time he pulls such a stunt he's out.

Beat him...




...up in the parking lot.

First step would be to get some rules in about stalling for time; 4 hours for 3 turns is just stupid. I'd refuse to give him a win based off of an incomplete game.

The best course of action is to have rules put in place to prevent this type of abuse, and disallow total jackasses from playing. Taunting an opponent (mean spirited) should never be tolerated.


Beating him, which isn't tough with a cheesy empire list, might not get the results you are looking for.

Here's an alternative: Deploy everything on your own deployment zone edge, and simply flee every charge. After the game ends, let him know that he's a jack ass and you'd rather hand him a win than waste 3-4 hours of your life with him; as would the other players in the league. You might also let him know that he needs to work on his sportsmanship or he's not likely to find people who will want to play him.
Sometimes people like this need an intervention, and can become positive people in the hobby. Giving him a hallow victory might be the smack he needs.

I did this to a brettonian player with my orcs and goblins. I even faced my own table edge. Game lasted ~20 minutes, then I was on to a game I enjoyed. He got the "win", and was unhappy to find out nobody else wanted to play him that day, and packed up and left. He did eventually become a better person, and has even won best sportsmanship since then.


-Matt

Matt, you sound like an experienced organizer. We're having the midseason league meeting, and rules for slow playing, rules for scoring incomplete games, and rules for restricting list cheese are on the list.

We're also considering a rule which will allow players to insist that a third party be present to referee. Any one of us vets would have put a stop to any of the real abuses (though we wouldn't have been able to do much about that panic-test-modifying item).

As for the intervention you suggest, it's definitely worth considering. I'll point it out to the guys. I've had those moments where I had a shocking realization that I was being an ass... who hasn't? Mainly it dealt with the kind of smack that routinely gets talked between people who know each other well, but gets taken the wrong way in another environment.

This is a one-year problem, in any case; returning league players are seeded based on their performance in the previous year, so now that we know what he's made of, he won't end up being able to bully newbies.

I respect and support this player-roughing proposal, but am afraid I'm still too noobish to contribute anything beyond that encouragement lol

Also, go Canucks

Malleus wrote:Matt, you sound like an experienced organizer. We're having the midseason league meeting, and rules for slow playing, rules for scoring incomplete games, and rules for restricting list cheese are on the list.

We're also considering a rule which will allow players to insist that a third party be present to referee. Any one of us vets would have put a stop to any of the real abuses (though we wouldn't have been able to do much about that panic-test-modifying item).

As for the intervention you suggest, it's definitely worth considering. I'll point it out to the guys. I've had those moments where I had a shocking realization that I was being an ass... who hasn't? Mainly it dealt with the kind of smack that routinely gets talked between people who know each other well, but gets taken the wrong way in another environment.

This is a one-year problem, in any case; returning league players are seeded based on their performance in the previous year, so now that we know what he's made of, he won't end up being able to bully newbies.

You're wrong about it being a single year problem. Even if he goes into the top division, he's still an ass. Slow play for a "win" is totally unacceptable. I'm not an experienced organizer, I was just lucky enough to play in extremely well organized events.
They had a take that if the only way you could find an opponent was to join a league where people are forced to play you, you should not be in the league.

This is especially true with new players. You don't need to throw a game, but you can still win and have your opponent enjoy the game and learn something.

If I'm not going to have fun, and I'm not going to learn anything, I might as well flee every charge and move on to the next game.

-Matt

Required Civil Approach:
"Have you talked to the guy and explained that that was unacceptable..."
Required Passive Aggressive Approach:
"Find someone to pick up his slot and continue with the league, when he shows up, tell him that he has been suspended for wearing his rectum as a hat."

'e is dishonorin Da Maw, smack him round the noggin then let da butcha feast on his inards!

How about a nice Purple Sun down the line of his Deathstar

Ogres like that alot!!!

Andy

QuietOrkmi wrote:Required Civil Approach:
"Have you talked to the guy and explained that that was unacceptable..."

Not only would this be the right thing to do, but it it would be the right example to set for the young 'uns.

Vengeance is allways the right answer

Grey Magic... use the spell that reduces initiative followed by Pit of Shades

At an average init of 2 the pit itself is enough against the Ogres.

Required Civil Approach:
"Have you talked to the guy and explained that that was unacceptable..."

You can't fight fire with fire. To set a good example and to not make him angry, therefore making him ignore everything you say to him, just explain what is acceptable and how he wasn't being sportsmanlike . Then proceed to whoop his ass in a game. He will be taught some humility!

p.s. I don't know much about beating ogres, but I'm an o&g player and both stanks and pit of shades wrecks me.

Question:

What happens when you go to the mat with your uber cheese, and he roffelstomps you?

Sounds like this guy lknows all of the tricks of the trade.

Being diplomatic about this is the best way to do it. Don't let him into group 1 with the experienced gamers, kick him out of the campaign, and take the bye's when he wants to know why let him know he failed his audition and hurt young players confidence in the quest for a simple win. Next campaign he gets a shot, but that will be his last chance.

Any other way is a lose-lose situation.

This is where I like to use what I call a win-win scenario.

Play him with your death army of ultradoom, and do your utmost to crush him like a sack of rice crackers.
If you win, you'll have proved your point, and just to be even more magnificent, be the gentleman at the end of the game, all smiles and good sportsmanship.
If you lose, reveal your doomsday weapon, a sledgehammer, and use it to crush his ogres literally.
Laugh like a maniac.

Either way, kid gets taught not to be a vagabond.

Kicking him out of the league may be the correct thing to do but not nearly as interesting, or memorable, as everyone in the group gearing their army to beat Ogres and stomping him every week

Have a chat with the other players, get them all to curbstomp his ogres and make it look like your game was boring with him. To play against the noobs just to get some wins when they have no chance, is a real horrible move.

You're mad at a player being a dick so you're going to solve it by being a dick?

Does this seem like:
a) a logical solution
b) a long term solution
c) the solution he would use on you
d) peanut butter

If there are interpersonal problems, they will not be changed by a game no matter what the outcome. The game will also not get him to quit smoking and/or use his turn signal before changing lanes.

If you approach the person in question and say something along the lines of, "all of us feel this behavior is unnacceptable for these reasons and if you do not change in this manner, you will no longer be allowed into the matches." In most situations in my life, I've found this to be effective. You are in a social, gaming group after all. Your strongest power is access to it. If he refuses to change, you now have the moral high ground and can boot him with an easy concscience. But being a jerk in a game can backfire in a lot of ways. You might give him new ideas to use. And you're basically encouraging him to continue his behavior by setting the example--I mean if you call him on it later, he can bring up your own tactics as justification. Not sure what you hope to accomplish.

2 steam tanks
3 cannons- each with an engineer.

If you really want to punk him send Karl franz on horse and ghal maraz with 9 knights into the bull star. Karl franz alone will win combat for you. The champ can take any challenge turn 1.
Hit on 3's auto wound, no armour, d3 wounds per failed ward/regen save. Karl Franz Lurves Ogres....

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:2 steam tanks
3 cannons- each with an engineer.

If you really want to punk him send Karl franz on horse and ghal maraz with 9 knights into the bull star. Karl franz alone will win combat for you. The champ can take any challenge turn 1.
Hit on 3's auto wound, no armour, d3 wounds per failed ward/regen save. Karl Franz Lurves Ogres....

Karl's only WS6, and that set up is 401 points. With only 4 attacks and D3 wounds per hit; I'm underwhelmed. He's averaging less than 6 wounds on the ogres; half that if they can regenerate.
He's not going to win it alone either. A tenderizing Tyrant (WS6 with 5 attacks at S7 doing D3 wounds each), is good for ~3.5 to 5.5 wounds depending on gear.

Cannon's aren't as good as mortars; as the D3 wounds isn't currently limited to under the whole. Sure the cannon will draw a line through the ogre block, but you need to kill each ogre for the cannon ball to hit the next ogre (8th edition cannon rules). It's pretty easy to fail to wound, or roll 1 or 2 for the number of wounds and have the ball stop short.
That 5" D3 wounding template will on average put out more hurt on a big block.

Then we come to steam tanks...
Best case is 6D3 S6 impact hits; then the ogre characters pound on it and kill/cripple it.
For 300 points, take Flagellents instead. Against an ogre horde, you go 14 wide, to toss out 44 attacks (hitting on 4's with re-rolls, and possibly, 3+, re-rolling to wound). You're looking at 22 to 29 wounds. Line up 3 of those on his death star.

-Matt

i would kick the guy out.


Ogres do not cheat, we rely on skill and sheer strength to win.

don't come down to his level to beat him, a really good ogre player knows the Weaknesses of his army and will know how to avoid Psuns and the like.



Don't let him play anymore untill he shapes up.

if that isn't an option, then you can go ahead and beat him down.



some general advice regarding ogres

Ogre Magic is tough. it may not see like that, but it is.

if he takes a little item called Grut's Sickle he can one dice spam spells to draw out your dispell dice until he loses concentration, then he uses the Sickle to get another dice by wounding his unit and then continues to cast.


once the Magic is up you have a difficult choice. all Gut Magic is dispelled on a 7 once it is up. if you only use 1 dice then you have a 1/3 chance of your Wizard losing concentration and his magic stays. if you do 2 or more dice then you are in serious danger of not casting any magic of your own.

Multi-wound weapons are good, but there is a catch.

Ogres really don't care about not getting armor saves(What armor?)

if a penetrating weapon fails to fully kill a model then it stops. Bolt throwers are terrible at killing ogres. you need to hit, wound, and then roll a 5 or 6 to kill completely.

cannons are better, but it's still a 1/6 chance of failing to wound and then a 1/3 chance of failing to kill.