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Grey Templar wrote:
once the Magic is up you have a difficult choice. all Gut Magic is dispelled on a 7 once it is up. if you only use 1 dice then you have a 1/3 chance of your Wizard losing concentration and his magic stays. if you do 2 or more dice then you are in serious danger of not casting any magic of your own.

It's worse than that. They count as being cast on a 7, so you need an 8 to dispel them (got to beat the roll with RIP).
Also, being able to stack them now means that if I really need a +1 toughness and stubborn, I'm going to cast it on them 2 or 3 times (for +2/+3 toughness and stubborn). Now when it's dispelling time, you've got to get all 2~3 to remove the stubborn. Same goes for Regen/strength.

You just can't let the ogre player get ahead in the magic phase, as miscasts don't end RIP spells like they used to.




-Matt

I heard about this gut magic stacking but I cannot find any information on it... Care to elaborate?

You get the toughness boost off multyple times and the unit gets that much tougher and so on. It's in the FAQ.

QuietOrkmi wrote:I heard about this gut magic stacking but I cannot find any information on it... Care to elaborate?

the restriction in the book saying that no unit may have more then 1 spell on it at a time was removed.

the BRB says that Buffs of any sort stack.


all this combined allows for the stacking of buffs.

Ogres can potentially be Str10 and T10 with Regen and MR2.


the most dangerous things to ogres are tons of attacks, a single T buff makes them practically immune to Str3. if they also have Regen they become really awsome.

Regen even makes Cannonballs seem wimpy(except Dwarf cannons. Stupid Flaming rune )

+2 strength is what I'm always shooting for.
S6 bulls is just stupidly good.

Now if only I could actually hit my opponent.

-Matt

Ogres are already Str4.

T3 is the most common toughness.


you really only need Str buffs if your facing something really tough or well armored.

What page does it say that multiple buffs stack... the paragraph number would also be helpful...

If it is written plain as day, this changes everything! I would definitely drop MSU Ogres for 3x2 ogres strong!

Pge 31, italicised section between Hex and Vortex descriptions.

Grey Templar wrote:Ogres are already Str4.

T3 is the most common toughness.


you really only need Str buffs if your facing something really tough or well armored.

T3 is the most common? I'd say I see about as much T4 as T3.

Beast: T3 ungor, T4+ everything else.
Brets & Empire: T3, though S6 would help bust armor.
Dark Elves, high elves, Daemons: T3 core, no real need for strength (multiple +to instead)
Ogres, Lizards and Dwarf: T4+, and heavy armor (you don't need any sort of help against skinks)
O&G: pretty well split down the middle; but night goblin nets is quasi T4 so the S6 is useful 5/6th of the time.
Tomb Kings, Skaven: Split, T3 core, T4 specials, T5/6 rares, and then we have the bells/furnaces. S6 is good.
Vampires, warriors, wood elves: T3/T4 core, and T4 specials and T4+ rares. Again, S6 is good.

So I'd say that S6 is a waste against High/Dark Elves and Daemon, but just about every other game, it's been useful. It's useful for another reason too. You get to use your boosted strength to take the strength test for another boosted strength, so it's easier to cast the 2nd go around. Maybe you only "need" strength 5 (fight elves for example), having Strength 6 or 7 means that the elf now has to work through 1 or 2 extra dispels to get to that +1 strength. Going from wounding on 3's and saving on 6's to wounding on 2's with no save is a 50% increase in kills. Hell yes I'm going to double stack a spell that increases my kills by 50%. It's also nice that you don't take wounds/hits while doubling up on strength.

-Matt

Ive come to realize that Elves are still the ban of Ogres, all of them even WE. DE and HE can shut down his magic phase and rain death with lots of str 4 ap bolt shots. I had a large unit of glade guard, 22 strong, with the Aech banner(always stand and shoot) and slaughtered two units of bulls before they got to me, plus the stand and shoot helped a lot. Only had to deal with one ogre at that time and my frail little glade guard were able to beat them. As for empire Ive found Pistoliers to be the way to go, that and knights still seem to work really well against them. I dont even bother with WM any more because they are far to fickled for my taste. Kinda hard to battle plan with totaly random attacks. I do more damage to myself then my oppenant 90% of the time when I take war machines. Big blocks of spearmen work pretty well against ogres, as long as those ogres are still toughness 4. Great swords are a moot point, yes the str five is good but the always strike last is gonna hurt unless you're going after Iron guts then its a good fight. I normally take halberdiers as my attachment for greatswords as the str 4 attack help. I like a large gun line against ogres too, normally 3 units of ten handguners and 1 unit of 20 crossbowmen. This has been working really well for me against all armies I face, save skaven and that damnable banner. I still like taking a large unit of 10-12 inner circle knights with at least a mounted warrior preist and a fighty captain or something better.

Hopefully you can teach this guy a lesson or two. I hate meta gamers.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Cannon's aren't as good as mortars; as the D3 wounds isn't currently limited to under the whole.

I know this board has debated this topic before (at least I think it has), and I'm not looking to rehash it now, except to say that not everyone agrees with that sentiment, and at the very least you should be ready for a bit of an argument if you try that.

Purple Sun will bypass any toughness spells he has going. If he runs a deathstar, this seems very feasible. Just bring a sacrificial sorcerer (or 3)

No tactics to contribute, just saying I think you're doing the right thing, this is how people learn.

For inspiration, you should totally re-watch Oceans 13.

phogiston735 wrote:Purple Sun will bypass any toughness spells he has going. If he runs a deathstar, this seems very feasible. Just bring a sacrificial sorcerer (or 3)

Hey, to pull in from the thread on signature spells, it seems the best way do it would be 2 level 4's (one death w/power stone, one shadow), and 2 level 2's (death and shadow, one with rod of power)
Have the level 2's generate 1st, and swap out if you roll up purple sun or pit of shades (so the level 4's can get them).

It should be pretty easy to get that level 4 with purple sun in the right spot for it to hose the Ogres, and then with the dice that generates, throw a pit of shades at the survivors.


-Matt

Honestly, if you can't redirect/stall a Ogrestar with empire, the ass deserves to win. A couple of cannons will win you the day.
Make him play the Skaven player. A single unit of Slaves backed by two Warp-Cannons is essentially auto-win against deathsarry armies, especially an underwhelming one like ogre kingdoms. Your skaven buddy will get bonus points for withering them down to the point where death-frenzied and/or poisoned/ and or normal slaves win against him.

But seriously, the four hour thing should have been called out immediately after he did that. No game takes that long, and he is obviously bulling some kids who are probably too meek to stand up for themselves.

Mekniakal wrote:Honestly, if you can't redirect/stall a Ogrestar with empire, the ass deserves to win. A couple of cannons will win you the day.
Make him play the Skaven player. A single unit of Slaves backed by two Warp-Cannons is essentially auto-win against deathsarry armies, especially an underwhelming one like ogre kingdoms. Your skaven buddy will get bonus points for withering them down to the point where death-frenzied and/or poisoned/ and or normal slaves win against him.

But seriously, the four hour thing should have been called out immediately after he did that. No game takes that long, and he is obviously bulling some kids who are probably too meek to stand up for themselves.

Well, tying up an ogre deathstar isn't as easy as you think Mekniakal. they can pump out well over 80 attacks and thats without adding characters and having a rank or 2 of ablative wounds(28 bulls costs only 980 points)

you would need a truly massive Slave unit to even hope to tie it up more then 2 turns.



the best way to defeat a deathstar is to ignore it(hard to do i know), kill the supporting units and keep the deathstar from getting more then it's other units cost.

Dumb question incoming: Couldn't you use a spell that affects his whole unit? I don't know anything about Empire but couldn't Skaven use the dreaded 13th spell here?

Sadly for skaven the 13th only works on infantry and ogres are monstrous infantry, as far as nuke spells go Ogres hate the pit of shades and/or purple sun.

Pit of Shades isn't as bad as Purple Sun because it is a Strength test which ogres have a good chance of passing, but when you lose 35+ points in one go it can get expensive fast.


Frankly, i think the Miscast table needs to be twice as bad to make up for the damage these spells can do. and Dispell scrolls really need to be able to be taken more then once.

the only Level 4 wizard that is priced right for the damage it does is a DE Supreme Sorceress. everything else is just way undercosted.

beating him sounds fun, i'd like to hear all about it. I am however with the others about talking to him. Obviously he is an Ass, but he should be told in a cold and formal manner, repeatedly that that sort of conduct is not tolerated and delt with if possible as follows:

Deception about skill levels? Well i read about Fantasy battles for over 2 years before i played a game, for all anyone knows that realy could have been his first game. I've seen stranger things.

4 hours for 3 turns? no no nonono... there is no excuse for this whatsoever in a structured environment. I'd like to know on what context he was stalling like that, stuffing his face with Cheetos so he couldn't talk or what?

Lastly, taunting his opponents? I guess you are lucky he wasn't teabagging them. The best way to deal with someone like this other than a cattle prod or a Referee, is to use a game report card filled out by both participants in a given game with an option for rating your opponent's sportsmanship (that gets turned in after a game). Having the best rating on sportsmanship should get you a little prize or store credit or something, even if it's just a congrats. Being rated poorly, repeatedly might get you a talking to from the event manager, or eventualy a 'Penalty' to your ranking. Being rated even just once by an opponent as 'Unacceptable' should get your win counted as half points, or incur you a penalty. If people are getting rated this way unfairly they can appeal it, but most WHF players are not vindictive in my experience. A penalty if that is most applicable should drop you a ranking. Therefore our foolish Ogre friend would find that he was always rated poorly, and though winning every game to first place ranking, finishes say, around Last Place. If he rates other players badly, you can just have them appeal it with the circumstances and you'll know exactly who is at fault, as you do already. If he wants to win, he'll have to play with some common decency, if he wants to pack up his toys and play elsewhere problem equally solved... if he want to be a grief-giving ass, and just mow people and taunt them without caring about scores, then you can just kick him the hell outa your events, and if he resists, spray him with Mace.

Just a warning, the Deathstar will likely include the Rune Maw, which makes hitting them with spells problimatic.

Not template spells.
Also the pit of hades is an init test and thus very bad for ogres, it's dwellers below that does streinght.

If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Second stupid question:

Wouldn't he be vulnerable to cheap units with high volume attacks?

skyth wrote:If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Spells that Target the unit can get bounced. out of the uber spells only PoS is a direct damage spell(and as such targets the unit)


i think the runemaw should work against all spells(and it was intended to be that way), but at the time it was written there weren't any spells that didn't directly target a unit.

The morbid part of me wants to know if Ogreboy took an epic beatdown.

The logical part of me hopes the situation was handled in some other way.

The Competitive part of me hopes he got CRUSHED.

Let's hear the trip report!!!

skyth wrote:If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Spells that target the unit, not hit the unit. Purple Sun Owns him.
Pit of shades is just icing, as it isn't bad to kill the support too, if/when it does get bounced; though pendulum or whatever you call it; the draw a line 6D6" long and init test or remove would not get bounced either, it doesn't target a unit.

-Matt

Grey Templar wrote:
Well, tying up an ogre deathstar isn't as easy as you think Mekniakal. they can pump out well over 80 attacks and thats without adding characters and having a rank or 2 of ablative wounds(28 bulls costs only 980 points)

you would need a truly massive Slave unit to even hope to tie it up more then 2 turns.

980 points is a MASSIVE point sink. If we want to go into rough approximates with skaven units (at minimum size) 980 points nets you 490 slaves (in 24.5 blocks of 20), 245 clanrats (in 12 and a bit blocks) , and 140 stormvermin (in 14 blocks). Extreme cases, but Skaven can easily toss a big mix of those units in 980 points and have a bunch of points left in 2000/2500pts for sheer killy.

the best way to defeat a deathstar is to ignore it(hard to do i know), kill the supporting units and keep the deathstar from getting more then it's other units cost.

Ignoring it, like you say, is the best SOP for beating them. The biggest problem I see with newer players is that they believe they need to face the deathstar.

Get a shovel and beat his fat ass with it.

Grey Templar wrote:

skyth wrote:If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Spells that Target the unit can get bounced. out of the uber spells only PoS is a direct damage spell(and as such targets the unit)


i think the runemaw should work against all spells(and it was intended to be that way), but at the time it was written there weren't any spells that didn't directly target a unit.

Just borrowed a copy of the army book. That'll teach me to go by the wording in army builder and a friend's explanation.