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Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.

The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.

There are 10,000 of them.

Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end.

They are lead by Valdor.

They out-number the GK 10:3

They're Gold. Gold.

They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.

In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.

Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)

Spoilers! Arghh.

dont be so sure. the gk have an impressive arsenal of nasty that the custodes would have a hard time matching. im sure they have their tricks too, but the gk are all psykers which counts in the long run. Are they meeting up in the field or is this a siege battle? one on one i think a custodes would prevail, but it would be a close one. Custodes are not that big mate. not compared to a marine anyway.

tarnish wrote:dont be so sure. the gk have an impressive arsenal of nasty that the custodes would have a hard time matching. im sure they have their tricks too, but the gk are all psykers which counts in the long run. Are they meeting up in the field or is this a siege battle? one on one i think a custodes would prevail, but it would be a close one. Custodes are not that big mate. not compared to a marine anyway.

They kind of are. A custode is to an Astartes what and Astartes is to a guardsman. Valdor, physically the same as every other custode, beat horus in a one-on-one fight.

Custodes are better - they are after all the custodians of the Golden Throne and Emperor's remains.

But why people always assume ( you also ) that they need to fight one another to prove something? They are 2 most powerful SM in the Imperium, they will never fought one another...

Grey Knights are only better when it comes to psychic powers and experienced ( they have after all fought in the last 10.000 years - Custodes have not... ).

Brother Coa wrote:They are 2 most powerful SM in the Imperium, they will never fought one another...

Didn't Loken say much the same thing about his Brother Astartes in Horus Rising, almost word for word?

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:They are 2 most powerful SM in the Imperium, they will never fought one another...

Didn't Loken say much the same thing about his Brother Astartes in Horus Rising, almost word for word?

That was different, these are not ordinary Astartes...

I don't see why this is a question? The Custodes have always been the top dog of the Imperium in fluff, by far.

I'd say Custodes as well. Yeah the GK are psykers but I'm sure the Custodes have their own anti-pysker talents and wargear. There's no specific fluff mention (I think?) but it'd be beyond ridiculous if some epsilon-level nobody could wave a hand and bend over the most elite warriors in the IoM. They protect the Golden Throne ffs.

Custodes no contest. The leader of the custodes is on par with a Primarch in power.

Brother Coa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:They are 2 most powerful SM in the Imperium, they will never fought one another...

Didn't Loken say much the same thing about his Brother Astartes in Horus Rising, almost word for word?

That was different, these are not ordinary Astartes...

It is not that they arent ordinary Astartes, it is that they ARENT astartes. Their process of creation is entirely different, and so are they.

Also, as for them having battled in the last 10,000 years, I remember some fluff that said that sometimes daemons come through the hole in reality beneath the imperial palace and the three hundred custodes in the emperor`s personal presence fend them off regularly. Plus there`s the blood games...


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Who actually voted GK...I am just wondering...

I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.

Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.

So they're less elite because they guard The Emperor?

Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.

That is some of the worst reasoning I have ever read.

Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.

Because if the Big E ever was attacked the entire IoM would be at risk of being destroyed. Can't be too careful with that kind of job, more the better.

Ok they are more elite then grey knights. I just don't like them.

The Custodes are the reason Draigo is staying in the Warp.

Redshade wrote:Ok they are more elite then grey knights. I just don't like them.

That is more reasonable.

Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.


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Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.

Only 300 actually watch him, the rest watch over the palace grounds, keep an eye on other lords of terra to shut down on any attempt of treason, and participate in Blood Games

And the acting Captain-General participates in all meetings of terran high lords and the heads of all the adeptuses, or whatever the plural of adeptus is.

Redshade wrote: I did. I know fluff wise custodes are bigger and better equiped but until they do more then stand around the throne room they will not get my vote. why does it take 10,000 super spacemarines to watch big E. they could be doing so much more. tey should just give the Guardian Spears to some one who will use them. if they are as tough as they clame they shouldn't need them.

That's your reason? They don't just Guard the EoM but also Holly Terra. Because they are there, there is no need for Space Marines or Imperial Guard to Guard it. I say that actually relieve great number of solders need for it's protection...
Beside, who would you put to Guard Emperor? Even Guiliman is Guarded by Ultramarines veterans, I think they didn't abandon him even when Tyranid attacked....

im2randomghgh wrote:Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.

Ok Custodes are cool and everything but they aren't psykers and don't appear to have any protection against attacks of this nature. That's why during the assault on Prosepro the Sisters of Silence were sent with them. The Grey Knights are not that much different to pre heresy Thousand Sons. The Grey Knights, if they were fully 'Warded' up would annihilate the Custodes. If it was a hand to hand battle it would still be a close run thing.

im2randomghgh wrote:The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.

No, they are supposed to be a stronger and only slightly larger than an Astartes. Abnett claims that, though Custodians are slightly larger, on average, than Space Marines, their fighting skills are more or less equal Not sure where you are getting the 'marginally weaker than Primarchs' thing from. A Primarch would break a Custodes as much as an Astartes. The strength of the Custodes is their ability to think on their own. But reading First Heretic you will also know that this is their weakness. Astartes fight together as a group.
.

im2randomghgh wrote:There are 10,000 of them.

Ok, not sure where that is coming from either. They were never intended to be little more than the Emperor bodyguards or emissaries so that number seems way to big to me.

im2randomghgh wrote:Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end

Grey Knights have Nemesis Force weapons and Storm Bolters. Halbreds are cool yeah, but what else do they have in their arsenal? The state of the Custodes now is more than likely different to when the Heresy was raging.

im2randomghgh wrote:They are lead by Valdor.

Are they really? Even now after 10,000 years? We don't know this.

im2randomghgh wrote:They out-number the GK 10:3

As above on the numbers, are you sure?

Hmm, doing some digging I have found a reference to 10,000 blades but this is back in 3rd ed. Need to do some more digging.

im2randomghgh wrote:They're Gold. Gold.

Whoop!

im2randomghgh wrote:They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.

But then the Grey Knights armour is not your regular Astartes armour either.

im2randomghgh wrote:In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.

What, alive, after his head was cut off ... impressive.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)

I don't think those numbers are highly accurate either, i think it was more like 7 on 3 but will double check tonight and repost.

King Pariah wrote:Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.

Source please?

ph34r wrote:The leader of the custodes is on par with a Primarch in power.

Source for that? I would guess that the leader of the Custodes is powerful, but only on par with the standing of a Chapter Master

I would sat that both are as Elite as each other as they both serve very specific roles.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Ok, not sure where that is coming from either. They were never intended to be little more than the Emperor bodyguards or emissaries so that number seems way to big to me.

From Lexicanum : "The Eternity Gate is the Imperial Palace's final gateway to the Sanctum Imperialis and its Golden Throne, and the Emperor himself. Two Imperial Titans of the honored Legio Ignatum stand guard, an eternal vigil they share with the 10,000 guards of the Adeptus Custodes."

And now there is only 1000 GK, so they outnumber them 10:1

Ok, next thing to do then is check where Lexicanum sources those figures, 3rd and 4th ed Rulebook and Draco, two of which I have at home.

Custodes are slighty taller, stronger and faster than an average Astartes, as each one is an individual rather than a batch copy.

This individuality is their greatest weakness. Each is a warrior fighting his own battle. Sure they're powerful on their own, but they aren't a coherent team work force like the Space Marines.

Their Halberds are on par with Nemesis Force Weapons in terms of power and carry a varity of atached armaments such as a boltgun which is the most common, their armour is essentially artificer, so its between Power and Terminator in ability.

They are not psykers or blanks.

They are highly skilled fighters and experts with the blade, they were trained at the Emperors side, I assume that now they are trained internally by Veterans.

They are possibly the most loyal and motivated soldiers in the Imperium. They personally guard the Emperor in life and on The Throne. They have an near unmatched sense of duty.

Grey Knights are not your average Space Marine, as remarkable as they are. They are not physically stronger or faster than an ordinary chapter and aren't faster or stronger than the Custodes, but each is more of an individual than say an Ultramarine.

Whereas Custodes main weakness was their individuality, Grey Knights do not suffer from this, and whilst retaining part of what makes the Custodes special, they don't sacrifice their ability to work as a team.

As I said, their Nemesis weapons are on par with the Custodes Guardian Spears, and every Grey Knight carries a Stormbolter or another weapon on their left arm. These weapons are more powerful than the bolters on the Custodes weapons, and Grey Knights are able to transport several Heavy Weapons that the Custodes have not been described as using. Grey Knight Aegis armour is not as good as Artificer but it is better than you're average Power armour. The Majority of Grey Knights are equipped with Terminator armour, sacrificing speed and manouverability for protection and strength. As such, A grey Knight will probably equal or exceed the strength or a Custode in terminator armour, and will have better protection.

This is the Grey Knights greatest advantage. Each one is a powerful psyker, able to unleash the powers of the Warp, power that is amplified by the Grey Knights weapon and armour. Custodes have not been described as having any Psyker abilities so are vastly outmatched.

Each Grey Knight has equal or possibly even greater skill with their chosen weapon than the Custodes. Whilst the Custodes will obtain an higher level of mastery on the training ground, the Grey Knights formidable training is amplified by a life time of Battlefield experience, something the Custodes have so far never had.

Grey Knights are whilst hugely loyal, do not have the same sense of duty that the Custodes have. Guarding the Emperor gives them a conviction even the Grey Knights could never match.


If they were to battle, I would give it to the Custodes in an individual duel, but to the Grey Knights if it were a force of say, 100 vs 100. Grey Knights work as a team, they coordinate their attacks and abilities.
First Heretic described it, each Custode is a Lion. Unmatched in might on his own, but they will not work together. Astartes are Wolves. Weaker on his own, but together, they outmatch even the Lion.

King Pariah wrote:
Only 300 actually watch him, the rest watch over the palace grounds, keep an eye on other lords of terra to shut down on any attempt of treason, and participate in Blood Games

What are the Blood Games? Sounds awesome!

Pilau Rice wrote:Ok, next thing to do then is check where Lexicanum sources those figures, 3rd and 4th ed Rulebook and Draco, two of which I have at home.

Here you are:
Inquisition War (Novel Series), Inquisitor (Novel), by Ian Watson
Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook
Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook

Have a nice read....

Brother Coa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Ok, next thing to do then is check where Lexicanum sources those figures, 3rd and 4th ed Rulebook and Draco, two of which I have at home.

Here you are:
Inquisition War (Novel Series), Inquisitor (Novel), by Ian Watson
Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook
Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook

Have a nice read....

Yes I am aware of that, thanks ...

Pilau Rice wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.

Source please?

Constantine Valdor was one of the first High Lords of Terra. He also had a close relationship with the Primarchs Rogal Dorn and Leman Russ, although initially Russ and Valdor didn't see eye to eye. Dorn was ever-present at the Imperial Palace during the great Crusade and so Valdor and the Primarch spent much time together. On the other hand, Valdor only earned Russ's respect when the former defeated Horus in a sparring match. The two were then together during the Battle of Prospero. There is no mention of when or how Valdor was killed if he was killed at all. He stepped down from command as a High Lord so that he could protect his beloved Emperor, now ensconsed within the Golden Throne.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes#Known_Custodes

There's your source.

King Pariah wrote:Valdor only earned Russ's respect when the former defeated Horus in a sparring match.

For this please, where is this coming from?

Not 100% trusting of 40k Wiki or Lexicanum as both are editable by anyone.

Pilau Rice wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Valdor only earned Russ's respect when the former defeated Horus in a sparring match.

For this please, where is this coming from?

Not 100% trusting of 40k Wiki or Lexicanum as both are editable by anyone.

Okay, so I'm very new to 40k (I just started playing last October) so I don't have the extensive background most everyone else here seems to have. If i can find a more credible source, I'll post it, but until then, this is what I'm running on.