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2011/05/14 23:03:53
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:It harkens back to the point a made earlier -
Spoiler:
During First Heretic, Argel Tal and his squad observe from afar, their accompanying Custode ofrce fighing on Forty-Seven Sixteen.
"They're not brothers," Argel Tal said. "Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They're not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers."
The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain's mind.
"Lions," the sergeant said. "They're lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold," he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, "not grey."
Pretty big flaw fighting against the Grey Knights.
Read pages 126-128 in The First Heretic for the rest.
Each individual Custode is a better warrior than a single Grey Knight. Put 100 Custodes against a force of 100 Grey Knights, the Grey Knights would work together, use their Psyker abilities, and would win.
No. A pack of wolves can take down a lion, but that doesn't help you if the lions are even to the wolves in terms of numbers, and it REALLY doesn't help when they out number you 10:1.
And yes, custodes battle-armour IS superior to artificer, as it allows freer movement and greater speed while offering the same protection as the best armour space marines are physically capable of possessing.
But the lions are still at a disadvantage if they don't cover each other... you know what? Forget this extended metaphor.
I voted Grey Knights. Teamwork and psyker powers more than make up for the difference between them.
There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.
2011/05/14 23:22:11
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
No, he wasn't. Horus himself said something along the lines of: Sanguinius, Roboute Guilliman, and Rogal Dorn would have been as good/better warmasters, but I know da emprah da most hahaha.
Obviously with better grammar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
If they're force weapons it means either
A. Custodes are latent psykers
B The Emperor's presence powers their blades (unlikely since the custodes used to fight half the galaxy away from the emperor on occasions)
or
C. Being in the Emperor's presence for extended periods of time made them psychichally conductive.
...
or
D. Someone confused their terms (unlikely due to wiki mods that check all edited articles)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/14 23:28:00
Well since they do possess some of the Emperor's genetic material, it's not hard to imagine that they are at least latent
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
2011/05/15 06:07:21
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Btw, IIRC Alpharius is moderately larger than the average Space Marine. Whilst not the size of most other Primarchs, it was only Omegon or larger-than-normal Space Marines that stood in for him...
Ah of course, my mistake. Still, point about him not being massive stands.
Btw, IIRC Alpharius is moderately larger than the average Space Marine. Whilst not the size of most other Primarchs, it was only Omegon or larger-than-normal Space Marines that stood in for him...
Ah of course, my mistake. Still, point about him not being massive stands.
I think that'd be funny. An Alpha Legion raid against ultras, then Pasanius ends up fighting Alpharius, and looks down at him
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/05/15 14:44:01
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
for some strange reason i thought the adeptus custodes were the local law enforcement (stupid i know)
Son you can insult me, you can ambush me, you can even take away my weapons. But if you think im going to step one single pinky toe inside blue base with out my SHOTGUN... you must not know who you dealing with.
I said move...
and i said SHOTGUN...
yes I have your shotgun
no.. i mean SHOT...-GUN
what is this... you think im going to give you your shotgun back because you asked???
i said SHOTGUN.... SHOTGUN DAMMIT!!!
oh yeah shotgun... thats my que.
2011/05/15 16:26:21
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
I disagree. I think 'barely inferior to a Primarch' is a massive overstatement of their abilities. I know theres the whole thing about Valdor beating Horus in a sparring match, I haven't actually read the story, so I could be completely wrong, but is it not conceivable that Horus wasnt actually fighting to his full potential, what with it being a non serious sparring session against an ally he knew to be his inferior in combat?
And even if thats not the case, just because Constantin Valdor, (who was exceptional) beat a Primarch in a sparring bout, that doesnt mean, or even imply that every Custode is 'barely inferior' to a Primarch.
There is a legion of 10000 Custodes. If creating beings who are 'Barely Inferior' to the superhuman Primarchs is easy enough that the Emperor created a legion of ten thousand of them, why aren't regular Astartes made to be 'Barely inferior to Primarchs'? It makes no sense for Custodes to be so powerful.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also, on the wiki it said guardian spears were force weapons with bolters on the end o.0
I thought they were power weapons.
I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons. It may just be the title or an error, but I've never heard it state anywhere that they're force weapons or that they have psychic abilities. it wouldn't surprise me if they were latent psykers, but nonetheless I've never heard them referenced as being force weapons.
The point remains about them not being on par with Primarchs also.
On the wiki it said they were FW. But yeah, they are probably still power-weapons, because although they COULD be latent, and it actually makes a lot of sense, I have never heard it said elsewhere that they are force weapons.
And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
I disagree. I think 'barely inferior to a Primarch' is a massive overstatement of their abilities. I know theres the whole thing about Valdor beating Horus in a sparring match, I haven't actually read the story, so I could be completely wrong, but is it not conceivable that Horus wasnt actually fighting to his full potential, what with it being a non serious sparring session against an ally he knew to be his inferior in combat?
And even if thats not the case, just because Constantin Valdor, (who was exceptional) beat a Primarch in a sparring bout, that doesnt mean, or even imply that every Custode is 'barely inferior' to a Primarch.
There is a legion of 10000 Custodes. If creating beings who are 'Barely Inferior' to the superhuman Primarchs is easy enough that the Emperor created a legion of ten thousand of them, why aren't regular Astartes made to be 'Barely inferior to Primarchs'? It makes no sense for Custodes to be so powerful.
Because the creation process for custodes is unfathomably time-consuming, complex, and, since the Emperor doesn't actually DO anything anymore, unnecessary.
Imo, the Grey are the most Elite. The Adeptus Custodes wheere aparently made from the seed of the Emperor, the primarchs were also made from the genetic material of the Emperor. The Primarchs fell, and were not incorruptable, who is to say that the Custodes aren't aswell? The Grey Knights on the other are completely incorruptable, as incorruptable as the Emperor himself.
2011/05/15 17:45:58
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
It's implied, or even stated that the Custodes 'legion's Primarch is the Emperor. The Grey Knights Geneseed is the most pure of all Astartes and couldn't have come from anywhere else but the Emperor. Both are basically 'sons' of the Emperor, its just that The Custode creation process is more extensive and precise, creating an individual rather than the Grey Knights relative 'batch' process.
2011/05/15 19:12:40
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/05/15 19:16:18
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:It's implied, or even stated that the Custodes 'legion's Primarch is the Emperor. The Grey Knights Geneseed is the most pure of all Astartes and couldn't have come from anywhere else but the Emperor. Both are basically 'sons' of the Emperor, its just that The Custode creation process is more extensive and precise, creating an individual rather than the Grey Knights relative 'batch' process.
Well there WAS that theory that GK gene-seed is made from a genetic cocktail...I believe it more actually.
Also, if anything, custodes are even more incorruptible than GK. When Alaric had the collar of Khorne, he came so close to corruption, he relied upon his psychic shield and that is how GK remain pure.
Custodes do so through pure mental discipline and faith (more than GK even) in the Emperor. If you clamp a collar of Khorne on them, it doesn't matter, still incorruptible. If you do so to a GK, than he is no more resistant than a regular astartes.
Custodes have more of the Emperor's gene in them than any others (barring the Primarchs and, of course, the EoM), which is why they are more perfect than the Emperor. Astartes are poor shadows of Custodes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
How can you still think that when you have no evidence, quite the opposite in-fact?!
Did you even read the link to the wiki page I posted? It stated plainly that they are only marginally less Chuck Norris than a primarch.
Yes, I just used Chuck Norris as an adjective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/15 19:17:58
winnertakesall wrote:Imo, the Grey are the most Elite. The Adeptus Custodes wheere aparently made from the seed of the Emperor, the primarchs were also made from the genetic material of the Emperor. The Primarchs fell, and were not incorruptable, who is to say that the Custodes aren't aswell? The Grey Knights on the other are completely incorruptable, as incorruptable as the Emperor himself.
On the primarch thing, exactly, the Primarchs are not incorruptible, and the Astartes are lesser versions of the primarchs.
The custodes are closer than anyone to the Emperor (both biologically and literally) and know no duty other than service to the emperor. The Primarchs also had duty to their legion, and when loyalty is divided, you aren't truly loyal to either. Half were loyal to one, half to the other.
iproxtaco wrote:It's implied, or even stated that the Custodes 'legion's Primarch is the Emperor. The Grey Knights Geneseed is the most pure of all Astartes and couldn't have come from anywhere else but the Emperor. Both are basically 'sons' of the Emperor, its just that The Custode creation process is more extensive and precise, creating an individual rather than the Grey Knights relative 'batch' process.
Well there WAS that theory that GK gene-seed is made from a genetic cocktail...I believe it more actually.
Also, if anything, custodes are even more incorruptible than GK. When Alaric had the collar of Khorne, he came so close to corruption, he relied upon his psychic shield and that is how GK remain pure.
Custodes do so through pure mental discipline and faith (more than GK even) in the Emperor. If you clamp a collar of Khorne on them, it doesn't matter, still incorruptible. If you do so to a GK, than he is no more resistant than a regular astartes.
Custodes have more of the Emperor's gene in them than any others (barring the Primarchs and, of course, the EoM), which is why they are more perfect than the Emperor. Astartes are poor shadows of Custodes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:And yes, they are still just barely inferior to a primarch.
How can you still think that when you have no evidence, quite the opposite in-fact?!
Did you even read the link to the wiki page I posted? It stated plainly that they are only marginally less Chuck Norris than a primarch.
Yes, I just used Chuck Norris as an adjective.
You're relying on a wiki page? A wiki page whose sources predate the newer material which mentions nothing of the kind.
The Horus Heresy series describes how custodians are only marginally superior to an astartes. The First Heretic describes how it wouldn't be wise to make bets on a combat between a custodian and astartes, because they are so closely matched.
The custodians have superior equipment, however they are less experienced than the astartes (who get real, 1st hand training/experience), they are only marginally larger and stronger and are only marginally superior to the 'average' astartes. The HH series explicitly says so. They are NEVER describes as being marginally inferior to a Primarch. The wiki you link me to says "It has been said" - along with having outdated sources - displaying its inaccuracy. The HH series however provides solid evidence of the custodes being much more in-line to an astartes than a primarch.
If the custodes are nearly as powerful as you describe then there would never have been a HH; if they are as powerful as you say then the 10,000 custodes could've defeated Horus' rebellion in themselves. This isn't the case however; they are not nearly equal to a primarch, no matter how 'Chuck Norris' () you claim them to be. There's no evidence for your claims.
If you could please provide a source where it states that the custodes are incorruptible and have more of the Emperor's geneseed in them than any other, that'd be great too. As it stands however, unlike the Grey Knights who've been able to PROVE that they are - so far - incorruptible, there is no EVIDENCE for this in the custodes, nor is their creation process and affiliation to the Emperor known.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/05/15 20:19:23
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Imma gonna go with the Custodes at the height of their power, but better than primarchs? i think not. Just because Valdor beat a primarch once does not mean that every single custodes can. After all Valdor was the leader (or something)
But I personally dont think they are immortal, I think they died off along time ago. I think now its more of a home alone job with cutouts of custodes on a railroad track going round and round the palace.
2011/05/15 20:30:02
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Random, everything you say is either just something you think, or backed up by outdated sources. The Custodes are on par or marginally better physically than a Grey Knight, with equal or marginally better armour and inferior weaponry and experience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toastedandy wrote:Imma gonna go with the Custodes at the height of their power, but better than primarchs? i think not. Just because Valdor beat a primarch once does not mean that every single custodes can. After all Valdor was the leader (or something) But I personally dont think they are immortal, I think they died off along time ago. I think now its more of a home alone job with cutouts of custodes on a railroad track going round and round the palace.
With BB guns rigged to fire through the dog door and trip wires to send a comical boxing glove punch you out a window.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/15 20:34:01
2011/05/15 20:44:28
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:Random, everything you say is either just something you think, or backed up by outdated sources. The Custodes are on par or marginally better physically than a Grey Knight, with equal or marginally better armour and inferior weaponry and experience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toastedandy wrote:Imma gonna go with the Custodes at the height of their power, but better than primarchs? i think not. Just because Valdor beat a primarch once does not mean that every single custodes can. After all Valdor was the leader (or something)
But I personally dont think they are immortal, I think they died off along time ago. I think now its more of a home alone job with cutouts of custodes on a railroad track going round and round the palace.
With BB guns rigged to fire through the dog door and trip wires to send a comical boxing glove punch you out a window.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/05/15 21:56:25
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
I hate to be the jerk, but debating over Fiction is quite hilarious. Personally, I say we ask Matt Ward to make the Custodes their own codex just to see what the almighty has to say about this. But if we look at the game currently, and before you ask me for the source I'm gonna say hunt it down yourself because I've been working heavy machinery all day and am too exhausted, if you try playing Custodes, you're apparently supposed to use the Grey Knights as a basis for them which I think would more or less imply that they are fairly close to equal in strength. Though one (the Custodes in my opinion because Constantin Valdor is such a badass) may be at least marginally stronger than the other. King Pariah out.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
2011/05/15 23:07:27
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
King Pariah wrote:I hate to be the jerk, but debating over Fiction is quite hilarious. Personally, I say we ask Matt Ward to make the Custodes their own codex just to see what the almighty has to say about this. But if we look at the game currently, and before you ask me for the source I'm gonna say hunt it down yourself because I've been working heavy machinery all day and am too exhausted, if you try playing Custodes, you're apparently supposed to use the Grey Knights as a basis for them which I think would more or less imply that they are fairly close to equal in strength. Though one (the Custodes in my opinion because Constantin Valdor is such a badass) may be at least marginally stronger than the other. King Pariah out.
If Matt Ward wrote the codex, each custode would be on par with the EoM.
Assuming the OP's question was "who is more elite?", then the answer is the Custodes, hands-down. Being part of the elite guard of the God and Holy Land of the IoM is no small matter, and no matter how incorruptible you are, daemon-hunting is no where near the same level as the Custodes in the hierarchy as the elite of the elite.
On the other hand, if the question is "are they better in a fight?", which is what the OP's beginning statement seems to be going for, then it depends whether we are using current Custodes or Pre-Heresy. Pre-Heresy, they had the best equipment, including Dreadnoughts and Terminator armor, and the GK equipment was influenced by theirs. Now though, apparently they abandoned their armour, so that combined with their individual organization could mean their doom...
...That is until you realize a single Custodes can take down 10 normal SM on his own and all-together they out-number the GK 10:1.
Elector wrote:Assuming the OP's question was "who is more elite?", then the answer is the Custodes, hands-down. Being part of the elite guard of the God and Holy Land of the IoM is no small matter, and no matter how incorruptible you are, daemon-hunting is no where near the same level as the Custodes in the hierarchy as the elite of the elite.
On the other hand, if the question is "are they better in a fight?", which is what the OP's beginning statement seems to be going for, then it depends whether we are using current Custodes or Pre-Heresy. Pre-Heresy, they had the best equipment, including Dreadnoughts and Terminator armor, and the GK equipment was influenced by theirs. Now though, apparently they abandoned their armour, so that combined with their individual organization could mean their doom...
...That is until you realize a single Custodes can take down 10 normal SM on his own and all-together they out-number the GK 10:1.
They still have their equipment, they just don't wear it for ceremony's sake. If the Emperor were in danger, they'd be wearing gold within the hour.
Okay, fair enough, then I'd have to say they'd win. Just find the image of two Custodes Terminators walking through a concrete wall, weapons firing away, and you'll agree.
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
iproxtaco wrote:
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yep astartes don't age.
I have also heard that the custodes number 10,000 and still have their pre-heresy jetbikes (Source:word of mouth)
They age like any human, but there bodies will remain strong and youthful forever, it's just on the outside.. They're functionally immortal in body but there minds are susceptible to the effects of extreme longevity.
Excluding any warp travel dickery and dreadnoughts, The Blood Angels chapter master Dante is considered to be the oldest Space Marine alive. At 1000 years old he is considered positively ancient.
And the head chaplain of the Ultramarines is considered very old at around 500.
Astartes live much longer than humans, even with rejuvenant drugs, sure. But they are by no means immortal.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2011/05/16 00:14:58
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
) you claim them to be. There's no evidence for your claims.
Yeah with all these traps you know the custodes would beat grey knights
