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2011/05/12 16:05:18
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
King Pariah wrote:
Only 300 actually watch him, the rest watch over the palace grounds, keep an eye on other lords of terra to shut down on any attempt of treason, and participate in Blood Games
What are the Blood Games? Sounds awesome!
It's a story in "Tales of Heresy" and yes, it is awesome.
2011/05/12 16:54:33
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Pilau Rice wrote:
For this please, where is this coming from?
Not 100% trusting of 40k Wiki or Lexicanum as both are editable by anyone.
They both have teams of man who are checking the background daily and fixing anyone edit that is not correct fluff.
I edit once something on Wikipedia, in 15 minutes they change it back - so no worry about that...
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
2011/05/12 19:25:08
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Well seeing as the Custodes are one of the most elite organizations in the IoM I would say thay they have access to everything the GK have access to and more, also they are designed and trained to operate in totally different ways, the Custodes are supposed to be body guards and to work to keep one VIP safe the GK are made to counter the threat from the warp.
In a straight army vs. army duel the Custodes would probaly win with numbers because both sides of are of equal training atleast.
In a protracted war the Custodes still would proably win since they could preform a number of different skills that the GK relie on the various assassins for.
And as far as psyker go it says in the Lexicanum "Valdor, with a contingent of elite Custodian Guard, fought alongside Russ and the Space Wolves on Prospero. He and his forces were responsible for killing at least three of the greatest psykers of the Thousand Sons and routing a force much more numerous than their own,"
im2randomghgh wrote:Alright, let's start this discussion with this: I think the GK would be completely erased With each fallen Custode having killed many, many GK.
Ok Custodes are cool and everything but they aren't psykers and don't appear to have any protection against attacks of this nature. That's why during the assault on Prosepro the Sisters of Silence were sent with them. The Grey Knights are not that much different to pre heresy Thousand Sons. The Grey Knights, if they were fully 'Warded' up would annihilate the Custodes. If it was a hand to hand battle it would still be a close run thing.
im2randomghgh wrote:The Custodes are bigger, better, and only marginally weaker than Primarchs.
No, they are supposed to be a stronger and only slightly larger than an Astartes. Abnett claims that, though Custodians are slightly larger, on average, than Space Marines, their fighting skills are more or less equal Not sure where you are getting the 'marginally weaker than Primarchs' thing from. A Primarch would break a Custodes as much as an Astartes. The strength of the Custodes is their ability to think on their own. But reading First Heretic you will also know that this is their weakness. Astartes fight together as a group.
.
im2randomghgh wrote:There are 10,000 of them.
Ok, not sure where that is coming from either. They were never intended to be little more than the Emperor bodyguards or emissaries so that number seems way to big to me.
im2randomghgh wrote:Their Guardian Spears are just like the GK halberds...except they have bolters/huge lasers in the end
Grey Knights have Nemesis Force weapons and Storm Bolters. Halbreds are cool yeah, but what else do they have in their arsenal? The state of the Custodes now is more than likely different to when the Heresy was raging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They are lead by Valdor.
Are they really? Even now after 10,000 years? We don't know this.
im2randomghgh wrote:They out-number the GK 10:3
As above on the numbers, are you sure?
Hmm, doing some digging I have found a reference to 10,000 blades but this is back in 3rd ed. Need to do some more digging.
im2randomghgh wrote:They're Gold. Gold.
Whoop!
im2randomghgh wrote:They have armour that has been said by several sources to be better than any astartes PA, so it would be like artificer armour, except it is more trim, meaning that if anyone were to argue using game mechanics, they would probably have Fleet of Foot.
But then the Grey Knights armour is not your regular Astartes armour either.
im2randomghgh wrote:In The First Heretic One custodian had a full clip of bolts pumped into him, his head cut off, mounted on a pole, and was still alive, after having killed three astartes in 3 seconds.
What, alive, after his head was cut off ... impressive.
im2randomghgh wrote:Also in that book, a group of 3(?) custodians fought 11 possessed Chaos Space Marines, including a possessed chapter master, and killed 7(?)
I don't think those numbers are highly accurate either, i think it was more like 7 on 3 but will double check tonight and repost.
King Pariah wrote:Custodes, the original Captain-General of the Custodes, Constantin, beat Horus in a sparring match, and he wasn't/isn't even a primarch.
Source please?
ph34r wrote:The leader of the custodes is on par with a Primarch in power.
Source for that? I would guess that the leader of the Custodes is powerful, but only on par with the standing of a Chapter Master
I would sat that both are as Elite as each other as they both serve very specific roles.
*sigh* I will do this one by one.
1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
3. This was already addressed by someone else.
4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
7. GOLD.
8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
9. Yes, it is.
10. definately 7 dead.
11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 19:45:16
im2randomghgh wrote:*sigh* I will do this one by one.
Yes, sigh indeed.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
Hmm, ok ... so a psyker can't use it's powers to increase it's own abilities and only fire fireballs and lightning bolts? Where is your proof that a Custodes is that much better than a Grey Knight?
im2randomghgh wrote:2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
You're quoting from the wiki again. Please, provide an actual source for this.
im2randomghgh wrote:4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
True as from the perspective of the Sabretooth game and the Visions series, which is pretty much one and the same. Other than these there has been no mention of Dreadnoughts or Speeders in the Heresy series however. Perhaps after 10,000 years of never leaving Terra they have had cut backs. We don't know the current situation of the military might and capability of the Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. There's no proof that he is alive or dead, unless you have a specific source saying he is alive? 10,000 years is an awfully long time to be alive.
im2randomghgh wrote:6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
And I haven't found an actual source for this. I'm not saying it isn't there, but both Draco and the 4th EdRB make no reference to numbers of Custodes, so I guess it is in the 3rd EdRB.
im2randomghgh wrote:8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
Ok so where does it say it's better than power armour. It's more ornate and frilly but does the same job. The early Custodes only wore trousers and a helmet and were bare chested.
im2randomghgh wrote:10. definately 7 dead.
Didn't check this one yet but will do when I have a chance.
im2randomghgh wrote:11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
Quite clearly I did yes, otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. But their is no reference point to the sparring match between Horus and Valdor on there. So I have no further point to check. Was it in Blood Games or some other background, if you know and aren't relying on the wiki then please, provide the source and I will find out.
im2randomghgh wrote:NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
That's your opinion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
If an Astartes was trained to be an assassin or infiltrator then they could be able to do this too. But they are soldiers.
I see that you are as dedicated to the Custodes as you are to your Tau ...
Either way I like Grey Knights, the pre Ward ones anyway, and I like Custodes .The Custodes may or may not have 10,000 in number but I think if they were to ever get in an fight of equal numbers it would be a close run thing.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2011/05/13 10:22:05
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2011/05/13 10:09:21
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
The only thing that prevents a solid Custode victory is that GK are all psykers. If Custodes are lacking in psychic defense (which I doubt, otherwise an alpha/beta level psyker would have waltzed in millenia ago) then this presents a serious disadvantage.
Two things I take issue with here:
1. Astartes and Custodes don't age. Serious?
2. Only 1000 GK I was sure that GK numbered a bit more than the average chapter. I'm also sure the Custodes had decreased in number since the Age of the Imperium (as the Emperor didn't go skipping into battle anymore).
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2011/05/13 17:27:28
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
My money's on Custodes. There's just so little that can stop them.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Not 100% trusting of 40k Wiki or Lexicanum as both are editable by anyone.
On a side note, wikipedia is found to have the same % of errors that Brittanica has (i.e. as accurate as it's going to get), so why would lexicanum be any different? It's a good source of quick information without having to read through BL books again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/13 17:43:53
"Huddle close to your Emperor if he makes you feel safe. He cannot save you, for only Chaos is eternal."
If Custodes fight pyskers, as shown in A Thousand Sons, they drag some Sisters of Silence along. As for their own psyker defense, I'm sure they have something. Can't have an Alpha Plus walking into the Imperial Palace.
Beg for mercy, not that it will help you - Asdrubael Vect.
2011/05/13 17:49:51
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yep astartes don't age. I have also heard that the custodes number 10,000 and still have their pre-heresy jetbikes (Source:word of mouth)
They age like any human, but there bodies will remain strong and youthful forever, it's just on the outside.. They're functionally immortal in body but there minds are susceptible to the effects of extreme longevity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azariah Kyras wrote:If Custodes fight pyskers, as shown in A Thousand Sons, they drag some Sisters of Silence along. As for their own psyker defense, I'm sure they have something. Can't have an Alpha Plus walking into the Imperial Palace.
Sisters of Silence aren't part of this, because they don't exist and because they are not Custodes. You can't assume that they have Psyker powers. There's no source to say they do, therefore in this conversation they don't. Grey Knights have amazing Psyker powers so are at an advantage. Grey Knights would win if it were 100 vs 100. They can work coherently as a team, when Custodes don't.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/05/13 17:57:46
2011/05/13 18:20:47
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:First Heretic described it, each Custode is a Lion. Unmatched in might on his own, but they will not work together. Astartes are Wolves. Weaker on his own, but together, they outmatch even the Lion.
That's actually from a 40k book? Wow. You'd think they could have managed to pick a big cat that DOESN'T hunt in packs.
2011/05/13 20:02:49
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:First Heretic described it, each Custode is a Lion. Unmatched in might on his own, but they will not work together. Astartes are Wolves. Weaker on his own, but together, they outmatch even the Lion.
That's actually from a 40k book? Wow. You'd think they could have managed to pick a big cat that DOESN'T hunt in packs.
Male lions don't.
2011/05/13 21:48:00
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
Okie Doke. I don't really view Horus as the "best" of the Primarchs. Best in what way?
Generally the best over-all. Where others may excel in a few specific fields, Horus was the best all rounder, and had the ambition to lead, but no the arrogance to believe himself as the best.
2011/05/13 23:45:22
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all
Okie Doke. I don't really view Horus as the "best" of the Primarchs. Best in what way?
Generally the best over-all. Where others may excel in a few specific fields, Horus was the best all rounder, and had the ambition to lead, but no the arrogance to believe himself as the best.
Well obviously in the end he turned out to be PRETTY DAMN ARROGANT considering he thought he could lead better than the Emperor.
Also, 100 v 100 would depend. If it was all shooting, custodes would lose, considering their guns are on-par with those of the GK but the GK can shoot and TK at the same time.
If we're talking melee, conversation is finished, go home. If you are already home, go walk your dog. If you are home and dog-less, then go jog.
Well, he was made The Warmaster because he had ambition but not the arrogance of The Lion or Rowboat Girlyman.
In the end, he fell not because he was arrogant in the first place but because he was angered by the Emperors departure, leaving him just like that to carry on the Crusade, and because he was partly deceived by the Chaos Gods.
I stand by that 1 vs 1 it would be the Custodes winning. Anywhere more than about 30 vs 30, the odds begin to swing in the Grey Knights favour, up to 100 vs 100 where I think they would definitely triumph.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/14 00:09:09
2011/05/14 00:36:48
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:Well, he was made The Warmaster because he had ambition but not the arrogance of The Lion or Rowboat Girlyman.
In the end, he fell not because he was arrogant in the first place but because he was angered by the Emperors departure, leaving him just like that to carry on the Crusade, and because he was partly deceived by the Chaos Gods.
I stand by that 1 vs 1 it would be the Custodes winning. Anywhere more than about 30 vs 30, the odds begin to swing in the Grey Knights favour, up to 100 vs 100 where I think they would definitely triumph.
...what about 10,000:1,000?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Also, as I already meantioned, it has been stated that Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to Guardsmen, and while GK ARE a cut above astartes, Custodes are only very,very slightly weaker than Primarchs. Do you think a Librarian could kill a primarch? No.
There is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH, the Custodes haven't been in active combat since then, and they are immortal. What possible way could you suspect he died? Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM.
And Custodes armour IS better. In The First Heretic, A custodes had one full bolter clip unloaded into his face at point-blank range and his armour held completely. It even stated specifically that Custodes armour, despite being ornate, is better than even artificer armour, and looks better.
Plus, it's gold.
And it wasn't early custodes that went bare-chested, it is modern ones. Something about mourning rituals for the EoM? They still have their armour though, they just choose not to don it as they prefer their black-painted chests to represent their unending grief at the death of the only human being to ever be free from sin.
im2randomghgh wrote:*sigh* I will do this one by one.
Yes, sigh indeed.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
Hmm, ok ... so a psyker can't use it's powers to increase it's own abilities and only fire fireballs and lightning bolts? Where is your proof that a Custodes is that much better than a Grey Knight?
im2randomghgh wrote:2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
You're quoting from the wiki again. Please, provide an actual source for this.
im2randomghgh wrote:4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
True as from the perspective of the Sabretooth game and the Visions series, which is pretty much one and the same. Other than these there has been no mention of Dreadnoughts or Speeders in the Heresy series however. Perhaps after 10,000 years of never leaving Terra they have had cut backs. We don't know the current situation of the military might and capability of the Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. There's no proof that he is alive or dead, unless you have a specific source saying he is alive? 10,000 years is an awfully long time to be alive.
im2randomghgh wrote:6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
And I haven't found an actual source for this. I'm not saying it isn't there, but both Draco and the 4th EdRB make no reference to numbers of Custodes, so I guess it is in the 3rd EdRB.
im2randomghgh wrote:8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
Ok so where does it say it's better than power armour. It's more ornate and frilly but does the same job. The early Custodes only wore trousers and a helmet and were bare chested.
im2randomghgh wrote:10. definately 7 dead.
Didn't check this one yet but will do when I have a chance.
im2randomghgh wrote:11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
Quite clearly I did yes, otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. But their is no reference point to the sparring match between Horus and Valdor on there. So I have no further point to check. Was it in Blood Games or some other background, if you know and aren't relying on the wiki then please, provide the source and I will find out.
im2randomghgh wrote:NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
That's your opinion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
If an Astartes was trained to be an assassin or infiltrator then they could be able to do this too. But they are soldiers.
I see that you are as dedicated to the Custodes as you are to your Tau ...
Either way I like Grey Knights, the pre Ward ones anyway, and I like Custodes .The Custodes may or may not have 10,000 in number but I think if they were to ever get in an fight of equal numbers it would be a close run thing.
Sadly Pailia Rice, I have to side with Random on this.
The Custodes have always been known to be what Astrates are to guard. Custodes are to Astrates.
Custodes are the best of the best. Trained in every martial skill.
They have free will.
Rice you can't really agrue with me in that in this agruement you can't really support the grey knights as there are more custodes and they are way more powerful than the grey knights.
Sadly you have not supported the Grey Knights.
We do know there are 3,000 Custodes. As The Emperor at the head of the orkish wagh! lead an entire 1 chapter worth of custodes against the orc wagh, and it was the largest wagh, TOO DATE. 3 million green skins. And the custodes lost.... 5........ Out of 1000
Yeah The grey knights lose hundreds of their own just to kill a small ork wagh.....
The Grey knights also do not have access to Imperator and Warlord Titans....
The Custodes literally have 300,000,000 Ships at their command. And the Imperium would side with custodes in the fact they trust them more. Than the back stabbing sister killer Grey Knights.
I do agree with you preward the Grey knights would of had an awesome sparing match between them and the custodes.
Though I ask for a mend
How about a Champion of the Emperor (Custode) vs a Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion. This way its not like a debate of who is the best.
Now I shall be getting back to my other duties. Ash out.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2011/05/14 01:03:48
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:*sigh* I will do this one by one.
Yes, sigh indeed.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. No. If it was a hand to hand battle the GK would be torn to shreds. Their ONLY advantage is that they can psyker the Custodes from afar.
Hmm, ok ... so a psyker can't use it's powers to increase it's own abilities and only fire fireballs and lightning bolts? Where is your proof that a Custodes is that much better than a Grey Knight?
im2randomghgh wrote:2. Their fighting skills are not more or less equal. On the WH40K wiki it says they are to SM what SM are to guard.
You're quoting from the wiki again. Please, provide an actual source for this.
im2randomghgh wrote:4. The Custodes have plenty up their arsenal-they have terminators, dreadnoughts, and many other nasty surprises.
True as from the perspective of the Sabretooth game and the Visions series, which is pretty much one and the same. Other than these there has been no mention of Dreadnoughts or Speeders in the Heresy series however. Perhaps after 10,000 years of never leaving Terra they have had cut backs. We don't know the current situation of the military might and capability of the Custodes.
im2randomghgh wrote:5. Yes, they are. Valdor survived the Heresy (big surprise) and shortly after stepped down from being a high-lord so he could take a more active role in protecting the Emperor. Custodes, just like astartes, don't age. He is alive.
Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. There's no proof that he is alive or dead, unless you have a specific source saying he is alive? 10,000 years is an awfully long time to be alive.
im2randomghgh wrote:6. Someone else addressed this too. It is now actually 10:1.
And I haven't found an actual source for this. I'm not saying it isn't there, but both Draco and the 4th EdRB make no reference to numbers of Custodes, so I guess it is in the 3rd EdRB.
im2randomghgh wrote:8. Yes but GK armour is still PA. Custodes armour isn't. Custodes armour is lighter, leaner, and more powerful than GK armour. No comparison.
Ok so where does it say it's better than power armour. It's more ornate and frilly but does the same job. The early Custodes only wore trousers and a helmet and were bare chested.
im2randomghgh wrote:10. definately 7 dead.
Didn't check this one yet but will do when I have a chance.
im2randomghgh wrote:11. Search up Valdor on the WH40K wiki. Did you even bother doing research before you posted?
Quite clearly I did yes, otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. But their is no reference point to the sparring match between Horus and Valdor on there. So I have no further point to check. Was it in Blood Games or some other background, if you know and aren't relying on the wiki then please, provide the source and I will find out.
im2randomghgh wrote:NO, chapter master doesn't even begin to compare to Valdor. Marneus Calgar would be out-classed by any single Custode.
That's your opinion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not to mention Custodes go around being invisible.
That too
Plus, they (being ~9 feet tall) are able to infiltrate noble houses, which would probably have security that could hold out a guard regiment, unnoticed.
If an Astartes was trained to be an assassin or infiltrator then they could be able to do this too. But they are soldiers.
I see that you are as dedicated to the Custodes as you are to your Tau ...
Either way I like Grey Knights, the pre Ward ones anyway, and I like Custodes .The Custodes may or may not have 10,000 in number but I think if they were to ever get in an fight of equal numbers it would be a close run thing.
Sadly Pailia Rice, I have to side with Random on this.
The Custodes have always been known to be what Astrates are to guard. Custodes are to Astrates.
Custodes are the best of the best. Trained in every martial skill.
They have free will.
Rice you can't really agrue with me in that in this agruement you can't really support the grey knights as there are more custodes and they are way more powerful than the grey knights.
Sadly you have not supported the Grey Knights.
We do know there are 3,000 Custodes. As The Emperor at the head of the orkish wagh! lead an entire 1 chapter worth of custodes against the orc wagh, and it was the largest wagh, TOO DATE. 3 million green skins. And the custodes lost.... 5........ Out of 1000
Yeah The grey knights lose hundreds of their own just to kill a small ork wagh.....
The Grey knights also do not have access to Imperator and Warlord Titans....
The Custodes literally have 300,000,000 Ships at their command. And the Imperium would side with custodes in the fact they trust them more. Than the back stabbing sister killer Grey Knights.
I do agree with you preward the Grey knights would of had an awesome sparing match between them and the custodes.
Though I ask for a mend
How about a Champion of the Emperor (Custode) vs a Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion. This way its not like a debate of who is the best.
Now I shall be getting back to my other duties. Ash out.
+1 for agreeing.
The one thing I disagree with is that there aren't 3,000 Custodes, there are definately 10,000. 3,000 USED to be the GK numbers, but now they're chapter-strength.
iproxtaco wrote:Well, he was made The Warmaster because he had ambition but not the arrogance of The Lion or Rowboat Girlyman.
In the end, he fell not because he was arrogant in the first place but because he was angered by the Emperors departure, leaving him just like that to carry on the Crusade, and because he was partly deceived by the Chaos Gods.
I stand by that 1 vs 1 it would be the Custodes winning. Anywhere more than about 30 vs 30, the odds begin to swing in the Grey Knights favour, up to 100 vs 100 where I think they would definitely triumph.
...what about 10,000:1,000?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Also, as I already meantioned, it has been stated that Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to Guardsmen, and while GK ARE a cut above astartes, Custodes are only very,very slightly weaker than Primarchs. Do you think a Librarian could kill a primarch? No.
There is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH, the Custodes haven't been in active combat since then, and they are immortal. What possible way could you suspect he died? Especially considering he was more powerful the Horus, which means that Valdor surpassed the primarchs, which means the only mortal in the galaxy who could beat him in one-on-one would be the EoM.
And Custodes armour IS better. In The First Heretic, A custodes had one full bolter clip unloaded into his face at point-blank range and his armour held completely. It even stated specifically that Custodes armour, despite being ornate, is better than even artificer armour, and looks better.
Plus, it's gold.
And it wasn't early custodes that went bare-chested, it is modern ones. Something about mourning rituals for the EoM? They still have their armour though, they just choose not to don it as they prefer their black-painted chests to represent their unending grief at the death of the only human being to ever be free from sin.
Well 10000:1000 obviously the Custodes would win but I'm talking about an equal force.
Where is it stated that Custodes are only very slightly weaker than the Primachs? The entire Idea is ludicrous.
I don't suspect Valdor died. I only just looked into Valdor and since no evidence is given to even suggest his death then I agree with you but the point is still open. He DUELLED Horus. One on one with swords. He is obviously a lot more skilled with the blade than a Primarch, that doesn't mean he is more powerful in general. We need a source for this.
Page number? I'm checking this out. For now I still think Custode armour is just Artificer so equal to or only slightly better than Grey Knights Aegis.
Again, source please.
Well on the point of experience, the Grey Knights are superior. Just less than 10,000 years of constant battle against the worst enemies the galaxy can throw a them, compared to 10,000 years or more of constant training but little else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/14 10:46:44
2011/05/14 10:56:17
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
Why have the poll if you all ready knew the answer?
I've never heard any official source state that Custodes are to Astartes as Astartes are to IG, if anyone could provide a source that'd be good.
Even so, it would realistically need to be a source NEWER than the more recent HH novels, such as the 1st Heretic and the two TS novels which describe how Custodes are superior to an astartes, but not to the extent people are describing.
Whilst Valdor may have defeated Horus in a sparring duel, doesn't mean the rest of the custodes are similar in level to Primarchs. Valdor is an exceptional character and Custodian, it's like saying because Calgar defeated an Avatar, any Ultramarine can.
Custodian's are on a similar physical level to an Astartes, but possess a 'purer' Geneseed/creation process, which allows them to be physically (marginally) superior to an astartes, whilst they are better equipped and trained. A fight between an astartes and custodes is not a sure-fire win for the custodes; they have greater odds, but Astartes and Custodes are a lot more similar than many people seem to be saying.
I do think the Custodes would defeat the Grey Knights, but I still think many people are misrepresenting both Astartes and Custodes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:Where is it stated that Custodes are only very slightly weaker than the Primachs?
It's not.
I don't suspect Valdor died. I only just looked into Valdor and since no evidence is given to even suggest his death then I agree with you but the point is still open. He DUELLED Horus. One on one with swords. He is obviously a lot more skilled with the blade than a Primarch, that doesn't mean he is more powerful in general. We need a source for this.
Exactly, a duel of arms is very different to an outright fight. Valdor could still have likely defeated Horus, however Horus is physically superior and the source seems to suggest Valdor only defeated him the once. How many times they duelled is unknown however. As for Valdors fate, it's simply unknown and to say that "there is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH" is ridiculous. You (random) have no evidence for this and Valdor's fate is very much unknown. Primarchs died during the HH, the Emperor was near-killed and you think Valdor dying would be in"conceivable"?! As for the immortality; like the Primarchs and Space Marines, it's unknown. It's suggested that they don't die of old age, but it's simply unknown as they typically fall in combat first.
Page number? I'm checking this out. For now I still think Custode armour is just Artificer so equal to or only slightly better than Grey Knights Aegis.
Spoiler:
His armour didn't hold completely in First Heretic IIRC
I too think Custodes armour is more on-par to artificer than superior to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/14 12:21:36
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/05/14 14:06:27
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
During First Heretic, Argel Tal and his squad observe from afar, their accompanying Custode ofrce fighing on Forty-Seven Sixteen. "They're not brothers," Argel Tal said. "Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They're not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers." The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain's mind. "Lions," the sergeant said. "They're lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold," he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, "not grey."
Pretty big flaw fighting against the Grey Knights. Read pages 126-128 in The First Heretic for the rest.
Each individual Custode is a better warrior than a single Grey Knight. Put 100 Custodes against a force of 100 Grey Knights, the Grey Knights would work together, use their Psyker abilities, and would win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/14 14:07:31
2011/05/14 21:03:21
Subject: Re:Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
tarnish wrote:dont be so sure. the gk have an impressive arsenal of nasty that the custodes would have a hard time matching. im sure they have their tricks too, but the gk are all psykers which counts in the long run. Are they meeting up in the field or is this a siege battle? one on one i think a custodes would prevail, but it would be a close one. Custodes are not that big mate. not compared to a marine anyway.
They kind of are. A custode is to an Astartes what and Astartes is to a guardsman. Valdor, physically the same as every other custode, beat horus in a one-on-one fight.
Where are you getting that from? I was under the impression they were of a comparable size. Im sure *some* Custodes might be taller or shorter than *some* Astartes, but for them to have a difference in stature comparable to the difference between a marine & a guardsman is pretty ludicrous. You're talking Primarch size, and even then, not every Primarch was 10+ feet tall; Alpharius was able to pass for a normal marine when wearing full armour. I can't recall any Horus Heresy fluff that describes Custodes as being significantly taller or 'bigger' than Astartes.
somecallmeJack wrote:Where are you getting that from? I was under the impression they were of a comparable size. Im sure *some* Custodes might be taller or shorter than *some* Astartes, but for them to have a difference in stature comparable to the difference between a marine & a guardsman is pretty ludicrous. You're talking Primarch size, and even then, not every Primarch was 10+ feet tall; Alpharius was able to pass for a normal marine when wearing full armour. I can't recall any Horus Heresy fluff that describes Custodes as being significantly taller or 'bigger' than Astartes.
No there isn't, they say - like you have - that they are only marginally (if at all) physically superior to an astartes. Whilst the 40K background does require certain amounts of interpretation, AFAIK he's pulling that statistic out of his proverbial buttocks.
Btw, IIRC Alpharius is moderately larger than the average Space Marine. Whilst not the size of most other Primarchs, it was only Omegon or larger-than-normal Space Marines that stood in for him...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2011/05/14 22:24:04
Subject: Which faction is the most elite? GK or the Adeptus Custodes.
iproxtaco wrote:It harkens back to the point a made earlier -
Spoiler:
During First Heretic, Argel Tal and his squad observe from afar, their accompanying Custode ofrce fighing on Forty-Seven Sixteen.
"They're not brothers," Argel Tal said. "Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They're not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers."
The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain's mind.
"Lions," the sergeant said. "They're lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold," he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, "not grey."
Pretty big flaw fighting against the Grey Knights.
Read pages 126-128 in The First Heretic for the rest.
Each individual Custode is a better warrior than a single Grey Knight. Put 100 Custodes against a force of 100 Grey Knights, the Grey Knights would work together, use their Psyker abilities, and would win.
No. A pack of wolves can take down a lion, but that doesn't help you if the lions are even to the wolves in terms of numbers, and it REALLY doesn't help when they out number you 10:1.
And yes, custodes battle-armour IS superior to artificer, as it allows freer movement and greater speed while offering the same protection as the best armour space marines are physically capable of possessing.
Sounds awesome! 
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" 
in your name it shall be done" 
Iron Warriors 3k 
Yme-Loc 6k
Grey Knights 2k <3 Harlequin WIP
Vampire Counts 3K 
Dwarfs 2k
Sigged!
