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Lexicanum shows pictures of jetbikes and Grav-Rhinos, but I don't know how canon they are.

I don't know either Cheesecat, but if they did, they would still have less than the GK, who are all psykers.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yep astartes don't age.
I have also heard that the custodes number 10,000 and still have their pre-heresy jetbikes (Source:word of mouth)

They age like any human, but there bodies will remain strong and youthful forever, it's just on the outside.. They're functionally immortal in body but there minds are susceptible to the effects of extreme longevity.

Excluding any warp travel dickery and dreadnoughts, The Blood Angels chapter master Dante is considered to be the oldest Space Marine alive. At 1000 years old he is considered positively ancient.

And the head chaplain of the Ultramarines is considered very old at around 500.

Astartes live much longer than humans, even with rejuvenant drugs, sure. But they are by no means immortal.

Actually, I am pretty sure Darnath Lysander is older than dante...

And, in Salamanders, there was an astartes from the Heresy who was still alive, not chaos, not dread, not stuck in the warp, just kinda sittin`there.

Asherian Command wrote:
Sadly you have not supported the Grey Knights.

This isn't my intention. Currently I am disproving the notion that Custodes are a bazzailion times better than astartes. Which isn't the case.

Asherian Command wrote:As The Emperor at the head of the orkish wagh! lead an entire 1 chapter worth of custodes against the orc wagh, and it was the largest wagh, TOO DATE. 3 million green skins. And the custodes lost.... 5........ Out of 1000

Where is this information taken from please? Did the Emperor also sit back and let the Custodes do all the fighting? From After Deshea we know that the Emperor is an absolute monster in battle, the guy can also make an entire Legion bow before him. I'm not surprised that the Custodes only lost 5 guys if he was there, if this is a true story. The Emperor could simply blow up a million Orks with his Hex Rays

Asherian Command wrote:The Grey knights also do not have access to Imperator and Warlord Titans....

If the Inquisition required the usage of titans then the Grey Knights would be able to fight along side these. The Warhound Titans guarding the Eternity Gate still belong to the Mechanicum.

Asherian Command wrote:The Custodes literally have 300,000,000 Ships at their command. And the Imperium would side with custodes in the fact they trust them more. Than the back stabbing sister killer Grey Knights.

The problem is the current day Custodes never leave Terra.

Just Dave wrote:
I've never heard any official source state that Custodes are to Astartes as Astartes are to IG, if anyone could provide a source that'd be good.

Agreed

Just Dave wrote:I do think the Custodes would defeat the Grey Knights, but I still think many people are misrepresenting both Astartes and Custodes.

This is basically what I am saying, that a fight between a Custodes and an Astartes, regular or Grey Knight, is not as clean cut as some are saying. Even the Blood Games backs up the fact of this. The idea that a Custodes is close to a Primarch is a huge exaggeration.

Just Dave wrote:Whilst Valdor may have defeated Horus in a sparring duel, doesn't mean the rest of the custodes are similar in level to Primarchs. Valdor is an exceptional character and Custodian, it's like saying because Calgar defeated an Avatar, any Ultramarine can.

Just Dave wrote:Exactly, a duel of arms is very different to an outright fight. Valdor could still have likely defeated Horus, however Horus is physically superior and the source seems to suggest Valdor only defeated him the once. How many times they duelled is unknown however.

What is this source? I can't find it and I've asked for it but no one has come forth with the information... Dave, if you please!

Just Dave wrote:As for Valdors fate, it's simply unknown and to say that "there is no conceivable way in which Valdor would be dead. He survived the HH" is ridiculous. You (random) have no evidence for this and Valdor's fate is very much unknown

Thank you, my point exactly.

Just Dave wrote:I too think Custodes armour is more on-par to artificer than superior to it.

First Heretic mentions that Custodes Armour is a step up from Power armour - is it in reference to the power armour of the time. I would assume so. If the Custodes armour has not changed since the Heresy then it will be inferior as the Astartes armour has progressed since then.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:okie doke

I think it's a bit unlikely to be true as Horus was the best of the Primarchs after all

No, he wasn't. Horus himself said something along the lines of: Sanguinius, Roboute Guilliman, and Rogal Dorn would have been as good/better warmasters, but I know da emprah da most hahaha.

But the truth of the matter is the Emperor chose Horus to be Warmaster. Not because he was his favorite son but because he believed him to be the best and most suited of all the Primarchs to lead his armies. We all know how that turned out, but he still chose Horus. The Emperor doesn't do things on a popularity contest, he does things to get things done.

Just Dave wrote:
You're relying on a wiki page?

To try and clear up a few things. The traditional uniform of the Custodes is boots, leather breeches, tall brazen helmets (with protective, likely a field generator, and communication gear), bare chests, and long black cloaks. (Note the cloaks were red prior to the Emperor being put on the golden throne, which was also when they abandoned their armor.) However originally, they were equipped with the best power armour (this would be artificer armor, which is gold colored... like the armor of the Primarchs) of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions.

The equipment of the Custodes actually is what they based the Grey Knights armor/gear, for a large part, off of. (though they expanded and specialized the gear to a great deal, which is why not all Grey Knight armor is artificer.) So if the Custodes have time to gear up in their old gear and weapons they had prior to the Heresy... they will be better equiped. (Even including the specialized gear the Grey Knights have... as the Custodes have all the best gear from the age prior to the Heresy.) But if the Custodes are just wearing/using what they normally have... they are at a disadvantage gear wise.

Note every source I have seen just says the Custodes were the first modified warriors the Emperor made... NOT that he used his gene-seed directly with them like he did the Primarchs. (The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines. This actually indicates he may have started creating them prior to the Primarchs) And the proccess is individual for each Custodian made. Frankly they fact that they are each made individually, they were possibly created prior to the Primarchs, and they were never intended to be his army is very interesting. (Their individualism, additional training, and skill at politics and society games... seems to indicate a role of hero/noble/assassin than any part of a military.)

Grey Knights on the other hand were created using the purest gene-seed (possibly of the Emperor himself, though not confirmed). So their creation method is the faster batch method of the Astartes, though the gene-seed is pure.

The Custodes are listed as being slightly larger and stronger than a normal space marine. (Not on par with a Primarch, save a referrence to one Custodian beating Horus in a sparring match. Funny thing is, there are normal space marines that have beaten their Primarchs in sparring matches also per the fluff from the various codexes over the last decade or so.)

By the definition of elite the Custodes are most definately the most elite, as each is hand picked and goes through a custom proccess for them specifically to become one of the most beloved and respected guardians of the most Holy of worlds and the Emperor himself. They are also better equiped if they know prior to get their old gear out of retirement, and choose to do so. The Custodes are trained in a much wider variety of skills and talents than any Grey Knight. They also think as individuals vs. as a group... now this actually can be both a good and a bad thing. As an individual they can choose to stalk and assassinate a target, or use their skills with people to turn an entire city against them... but in a straight out fight, they will need to rely on their armor and weapons (which are superior) vs. working together to concentrate fire and take out targets as a group.

In the end the Custodes will most likely win in an even battle virtually everytime (remember luck and chance always have a part). But the larger the battle that is even on both sides the greater their losses percentage wise.

My questions is; why don't all the Grey KNights try and clear ou the webway tunnel beneath the golden throne?

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:My questions is; why don't all the Grey KNights try and clear ou the webway tunnel beneath the golden throne?

Because they can't clear it out. It's a permanent opening to the Warp, which is only kept closed by The Emperor. If he lowers his shield in any way, Daemons will pour through forever, the Grey Knights don't have the time, the resources, the ability or the need to fight the literally endless horde of Warp Spawn. There's also no need as The Emperor protects it. Also the risk. Why would they go in, only to be over-run and have the Chaos Gods conquer and destroy Terra, snuffing the Astronomican, killing the leaders of The Imperium and The Emperor.

im2randomghgh wrote:

9. Yes, it is.

10. definately 7 dead.

Ok so I have also read back through First Heretic and can now comment here.


Vendatha, manages to kill 3 on his own, but also has surprise on his hand as

sekerra wrote:
Not every source I have seen just says the Custodes were the first modified warriors the Emperor made... NOT that he used his gene-seed directly with them like he did the Primarchs. (The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines. This actually indicates he may have started creating them prior to the Primarchs) And the proccess is individual for each Custodian made. Frankly they fact that they are each made individually, they were possibly created prior to the Primarchs, and they were never intended to be his army is very interesting. (Their individualism, additional training, and skill at politics and society games... seems to indicate a role of hero/noble/assassin than any part of a military.)

Wouldn't the first modified warriors be the Thunder Warriors, the Proto Astartes, and the Custodes formed between these and the Primarchs?



Edit: Added spoiler tags. A thousand pardons Toastedandy

Pilau Rice wrote:

sekerra wrote:
Not every source I have seen just says the Custodes were the first modified warriors the Emperor made... NOT that he used his gene-seed directly with them like he did the Primarchs. (The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines. This actually indicates he may have started creating them prior to the Primarchs) And the proccess is individual for each Custodian made. Frankly they fact that they are each made individually, they were possibly created prior to the Primarchs, and they were never intended to be his army is very interesting. (Their individualism, additional training, and skill at politics and society games... seems to indicate a role of hero/noble/assassin than any part of a military.)

Wouldn't the first modified warriors be the Thunder Warriors, the Proto Astartes, and the Custodes formed between these and the Primarchs?

I was wondering, as have seen a few references to this, do the Custodes even have Geneseed? Reading p474 - 475 in First Heretic makes me question if they do.

That was what I was looking at, I have not seen any referrences of them having gene-seeds like the Primarchs (and the Astarte that were formed from the remaining geneseed after the Primarchs were taken). They are individually modified warriors from what I have read.

And actually the first genetic engineered warriors he used were the Geno Five-Two Chiliad, an imperial guard legion that used genetic engineering to make their warriors stronger (and have a weak psychic link between their female commanders and their "children")... which is thought to be where the Emperor got his idea towards making his Primarch. However the lore says the first genetic warriors he made were the Custodes... which would mean he watched the Geno Five-Two Chiliad's techniques, used them to make the Custodes individually, and in turn took what he learned to combine to make the Primarchs and later the space marines.

sekerra wrote:
And actually the first genetic engineered warriors he used were the Geno Five-Two Chiliad, an imperial guard legion that used genetic engineering to make their warriors stronger (and have a weak psychic link between their female commanders and their "children")... which is thought to be where the Emperor got his idea towards making his Primarch. However the lore says the first genetic warriors he made were the Custodes... which would mean he watched the Geno Five-Two Chiliad's techniques, used them to make the Custodes individually, and in turn took what he learned to combine to make the Primarchs and later the space marines.

But are we talking Emperor modified? The Geno were possibly one of the first but were they modified by the Emperors geneticists?

I still think that the Thunder Warriors were the first to come before the Custodes and Astartes, being the further away from humans. I am sure that genetic modifications were being done before even the Geno were created.

They are in the Last Church so i'll have a look at that to refresh, but there is no mention of Custodes in that and the Emperor has body guards with him then.

Come across some information in regards to the Age of Apostasy and at the time in M36 the Captain General of the Custodes was Excelsor.

Pilau Rice wrote:
On point 9 You saying that he had is head cut off is incorrect. Argel Tal throws his Crimson Sword into his mouth, smashing his teeth, which he survives much to Argel Tals surprise.

Point 10 you say 7 dead, I only make it 3 out of 8. Admittedly they are possessed, but they also do not appear to attack in unison. I think that would have the Custodes dead very quickly. Nirallus slays Malnor. Aquillon slays Sicar, who is feeding on Nirallus, and Sythron kills Xaphen. Argel Tal mentions that after the deaths of Malnor and Sicar there are 6 remaining Gal Vorbak.

Vendatha, manages to kill 3 on his own, but also has surprise on his hand as

If he had wanted Vendatha dead before killing anyone he would've just said shoot.

I was wondering, as have seen a few references to this, do the Custodes even have Geneseed? Reading p474 - 475 in First Heretic makes me question if they do.

Eh yeah spoiler tags exist for a reason?! I just bought the book today!!!!!!!!

Toastedandy wrote:
Eh yeah spoiler tags exist for a reason?! I just bought the book today!!!!!!!!

I do apologise Toastedandy, I forgot that there are other people who might be reading this thread who aren't aware of what is happening.

I've added spoilers.

Luckily it's not giving too much information away.

Gotta be gk