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Hi!

Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking...
So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that?
Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that?

Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.

However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do.

Welcome to Dakka

That thread was originally about paper terrain but swiftly got derailed into a discussion about paper models. If I remember correctly that soon became rather heated, as this topic tends to.

As a modeller rather than a gamer I mostly agree with your viewpoint, but calling someone childish because you disagree with an opinion is giving the impression of an antagonistic OP.
Which is going some for your debut post on Dakka.

Nice start, most people at least choose to say, "Hi!" before kicking up a storm.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Welcome to Dakka

That thread was originally about paper terrain but swiftly got derailed into a discussion about paper models. If I remember correctly that soon became rather heated, as this topic tends to.

As a modeller rather than a gamer I mostly agree with your viewpoint, but calling someone childish because you disagree with an opinion is giving the impression of an antagonistic OP.
Which is going some for your debut post on Dakka.

Nice start, most people at least choose to say, "Hi!" before kicking up a storm.

I did

In which case I had better elucidate. Most people say Hi and then go on to say a little bit about themselves in an introductory manner. Sort of ice breaking rather than melting with a flamer.

Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.

This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.

Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.

It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.

snurl wrote:Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.

It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.

Tell me - what happens when that person with the 2D paper models wipes the floor with you?

Wargaming - in all of it's forms - is pushing little markers on the table and making the explode-y noises in our heads. Some people want to get more involved into the hobby than others, and some people will never paint a model in their life.

nkelsch wrote:Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.

This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.

1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...

infinite_array wrote:

snurl wrote:Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.

It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.

Tell me - what happens when that person with the 2D paper models wipes the floor with you?

Wargaming - in all of it's forms - is pushing little markers on the table and making the explode-y noises in our heads. Some people want to get more involved into the hobby than others, and some people will never paint a model in their life.

Thats just it. If you want to play with a paper army then go play a paper wargame. If you like the modeled version play that with models. Pushing into an established system with disregaurd for its requirements seems sort of rude to me. But what do I know?

I can't answer your other question because no one has ever wiped the floor with me.

DreamWeaver wrote:

1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...

Well, this seems less like an attempt at having a conversation and more an attempt at starting a flamewar, but I guess I enjoy either one, so why not.

There are 2 sets of guidelines here, with a single exception.

A.) If you're like actual, real-life friend, I don't care what you use for models so long as I can tell what they are and they are consistent (and more or less appropriately sized). I'd prefer not to be assaulted by a Coke can Carnifex, but you're my friend and I like hanging out with you, so whatever.

B.) If you're Little Johnny Nobody, then I spent a lot of time and money and effort getting my army done, and I'd like to play with someone with similar ambitions. So, I don't care if they're only basecoated plastic models, if they're a work in progress and you're working to eventually have a nice, well done army. But you can GTFO with your coke can carnifex. Saying waaagh, I'm too poor and the "GW lackeys" won't play with me is like complaining the Yacht Club is excluding you and your canoe because you can't afford a yacht. That's the game, brah. Go play something else if you don't want to play it.

At the end of the day I almost never get to play against actual people, and so I while I wouldn't refuse a game against Cardboard Cutout guy, per se, but he'd certainly be my last choice of opponent should I be so blessed as to have a choice of adversaries.

Single Exception: Drop Pods. These models suck, are expensive, and do nearly nothing. No matter who you are, I'm not complaining about plastic cup drop pods. I built and painted a single drop pod and hated it the whole time. Your peanut butter jar drop pod is OK with me, but at least paint it or something and don't break my immersion.

DreamWeaver wrote:Hi!

Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking...
So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that?
Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that?

Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.

However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do.

It's a shame that your friend is unemployed at the moment. As someone else has already pointed out, he's not entitled to any particular leisure activity. While his friends are probably happy to play him, neither he, nor anyone else, should expect other people to modify their gaming expectations to accommodate him. It's their leisure time as well and they should feel free to pursue it in the manner that gives them the most enjoyment, which might be playing against people using actual models.

As far as using 2d chits being more "hardcore" than using models, I don't see how that follows at all. If I'm gaming against someone that stinks to high heaven, I'm not going to assume that he spends so much time honing his "battle skills" that he doesn't have time to shower any more.

Clearly not playing against the person in question isn't immoral. It's people deciding that they want their gaming time to involve models and not paper tokens. Yourself and your friend can either deal with the fact that you don't get to tell people how they spend their free time or continue with the condescending rants.

I remember warhammer 40k 2nd ed coming with stand up card cutouts, 4th ed warhammer also. Also RT came with ork and marine counters for players to use at the battle of the farm scenario. Obviously these were "to get you started and playing" measures which I think should still be usable today for those starting an army up. You want to spend time designing a few dozen base sized tokens for x, y and z? Sure it helps people get playing faster, and they're either going to buy the model or not.
Also while this isn't the thread to hark on about the cost of models we have tgo take that into account partly. Lets say little Jimmy wants to start this cool game with toy soldiers, he goes out and spends big bucks on the warhammer rulebook after saving his money. Drooling over the figures he then looks at average army sizes to start costing stuff up. One google later he arrives at dakka and looks at the army list section. Cross referencing it with the GW site, then taking 20% off as he hears about discount retailers he realises that shiney rulebook and his dreams will take a few months to realise. Surely it is better that in the meantime he is at least trying to play and get to grips with the rules as he builds an army imo, after all tokens have been used in skirmish and up sized games for years from roleplaying to wargaming.
Now long term I'm not sure if I'd enjoy seeing the tokens drop each time on a large scale game and see the modelling and painting part of wargaming as part of the fun, but whos to say everyone does. When I was playing at least 2 or 3 gasmes a week there was still the sea of unpainted or just primed models and that hasn't changed in 15 years.

Vermillion wrote:I remember warhammer 40k 2nd ed coming with stand up card cutouts, 4th ed warhammer also. Also RT came with ork and marine counters for players to use at the battle of the farm scenario. Obviously these were "to get you started and playing" measures which I think should still be usable today for those starting an army up. You want to spend time designing a few dozen base sized tokens for x, y and z? Sure it helps people get playing faster, and they're either going to buy the model or not.

There were only a couple of card things with 2nd ed 40K and 4th Fantasy and looked pretty bad. I think someone would be much better off scratchbuilding models of Ork dreadnoughts and other vehicles. Scratchbuilding a drop pod or rhino is not impossible because they are mostly box shaped and you can get plans online. Individual figures are more difficult to replace.

Perhaps someone could lend him figures for gaming.

Do Games Workshop stores keep in-store armies for people to use when trying out the game?

They do for "intro games" but typically not for full scale games. (YRMV)

Ouze wrote:
A.) If you're like actual, real-life friend, I don't care what you use for models so long as I can tell what they are and they are consistent (and more or less appropriately sized). I'd prefer not to be assaulted by a Coke can Carnifex, but you're my friend and I like hanging out with you, so whatever.

B.) If you're Little Johnny Nobody, then I spent a lot of time and money and effort getting my army done, and I'd like to play with someone with similar ambitions. So, I don't care if they're only basecoated plastic models, if they're a work in progress and you're working to eventually have a nice, well done army. But you can GTFO with your coke can carnifex. Saying waaagh, I'm too poor and the "GW lackeys" won't play with me is like complaining the Yacht Club is excluding you and your canoe because you can't afford a yacht. That's the game, brah. Go play something else if you don't want to play it.

I agree with the shark that has an Assault Cannon in his mouth.

I dedicate my time to building and painting models and don't really like playing against 2D models because, although I spend most of my other time on tactics and actually playing games with miniatures I've built and painted, I still have my preferences. If I had a choice I'd play two games against the real army.

I'm not real snobbish. I've been playing a half-painted Daemon army for the past six months whilst working on a completely new Ork army, and it was totally worth it -there's something special about breaking in that first game with a completely painted virgin army.

What's that? You've drawn some pictures of models you like and stood them so I can see them better? That's nice. I usually just write a list.

It's been interesting to learn about your hobby. Why did your friend get fired?

Well, many people on dakka are childish and opinionated, welcome to the internet, enjoy your stay.

I never thought about it before as I only play at my FLGS and most of them never even proxy.. But I would be alright with people using paper 3d models or proxyed paper bases, but I definitely think it would detract from my enjoyment of the hobby to play against the whole army. When I play 40k I picture the game happening in a real place, I believe this cinematic element is one of the most enjoyable things about the hobby. Personally I think it would lose a lot of its appeal if it lost that, so I don't think I would want to play against an army composed mostly or entirely paper models, especially 2d ones

I have to ask... if you're not going to use GW's awesome models, why torture yourself and stick to their horrid rules? If you just play for the rules, not the looks, find some good rules!

DreamWeaver wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.

This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.

1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...

Don't expect to play in a store whose sole purpose is to SELL MODELS. If you want to do it at home with consenting adults... fine... Showing up to a place of business where they sell a product, then use an alternative to that product in an arrogant display that says 'You will never make a dime off of me, but I will consume your resources, space and rent' is unreasonable.

If I was a store owner, I would refuse to let you play in my store because you are not a customer... your 2D paper models proves it. You are just as bad as counterfeiters and people who buy exclusively online to a store owner who provides free space to game because he is selling models.

You are not entitled to a FLGS table space or playerbase... Go download Vassal, meet people online and play your brains out. You don't waste a store owners time or the time of the people in the FLGS... You will then be online with like-minded people and have a good time.

This is a troll thread. And if your friend is unemployed, he has no time to 'play games'. He should be devoting 100% of his effort to finding a new job, working that job he probably feels is beneath him or taking steps to increase his marketability like education or even volunteer work. If you want a job, when an employer on an interview asks 'what have you been doing with your gap in employment.' saying "working weekends in a homeless shelter" goes over so much better than "playing boardgames with 2D paper knockoffs." This whole premise of this situation reeks of entitled self-centeredness and no one could be this unreasonable in real life... so it is a troll thread.

lord_blackfang wrote:I have to ask... if you're not going to use GW's awesome models, why torture yourself and stick to their horrid rules? If you just play for the rules, not the looks, find some good rules!

Lol, thank you for posting that.

This is, in the end, why I still buy GW product. I like the models. I'm
not really into either game, but I do like the models. So whenever
my Warmachine and Hordes budget opens up (helped along by a product
shortage that's going to end soon!) I buy some stuff.

The (frequent) argument about paper models in 40k is a little tiresome. Yes, warning: I have no intent to be conciliatory and attempt to reach a compromise with someone elses view.
Having played 40k for over a decade I've giving GW more than it's pound of flesh, and I don't mind giving them more for thier models because I like the hobby. But my first army taught me an important lesson: try before you buy. Armies that sound good on paper don't always work out. So before I buy a while new army I do in fact pull out a set of bases, print out 2d models and play a few games. If I'm forced to do so at the FLGS I always have a back up army and list read to go, you shouldn't have to play my proxies if you don't have to and I'm quite gracious about changing. but if you insist and you are a dick, it'll probably be the last time we play anyway because the odds are I'll feel repelled by you.
Paper models are a useful tool, especially when the cost of models has skyrocketed. But they also don't permanently replace real models, until we talk about scratch building. I've heard folks who voice the opinion that once GW makes a plastic model scratch builds are not legal. That is patently untrue. GW actively encourages scratch building and conversions. We aren't talking about shoeboxes for rhinos, or vaguely shaped slabs of cardboard. Fully built, instantly recognizable models. I've seen some of dodgey quality but as that builder improves those go away. A the end of the day if someone plops a razorback on the table that I recognize as a razorback, with heavybolters it's game on. I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.

Curious.

In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?

Shotgun wrote:Curious.

In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?

"True LOS"?!? Shirley, you must be joking...

Rymafyr wrote:

Shotgun wrote:Curious.

In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?

"True LOS"?!? Shirley, you must be joking...

It doesn't matter, we aren't talking about real gamers that count anyway. *hides*

AustonT wrote: I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.

A rule in a rulebook doesn't make it 'legal' to monopolize space in a FLGS with items that show you are not a customer of the FLGS and also promote actions that take sales away from the FLGS that pays the rent on the space you game in.

There is a world of difference of 'try before you buy' and being a hardcore forever paper gamer. And most people 'proxy' with minis not print out WYSIWYG paper stand-ins...

I know more than one store owner who would not be amused by your paper stand-ins as it is bad for business and insulting to loiter and be a non-customer in a place of business.

wow, lots of hate for people looking to game when the budget is a bit tight. myself personally, I'd play him without bating an eye, an army is an army, I could care less where it comes from. be it the company that made the rules, another model supplier or even paper. its about a player base, and having spent time in an area that had next to zero for most of my entire gaming experience, and found myself less caring whats on the table, and who I am playing with. if I want to 'see' two armies going toe to toe, then gosh darnit I have something I call an imagination, and gee golly wiz, it's free to use when it comes to a game, a board game.

I buy models both online, and from my current FLGS(hell no doubt I've help him furnish his house having brought in easily over a $1,000 worth of business to his store in the last year alone) I also make sure to go out of my way and buy most if not all modeling supplies from his store. I do however see it as a very important step to encourage growth in the player base, and no doubt the store owner would see it the same way. having two players that buy solely from your store is fine a dandy, but having guy that buys a majority of his stuff off the internet or simply doesn't buy at all, bring in three to four more player who buy from your store, I see that as far from a negative. besides, if more people are playing the more likely they are to bring in more players, and more players equals more cash. not to mention if there is a larger player base, means more returned customers.

as for being jobless, I have to agree there are better ways of spending ones time than playing games, but I don't know the full story, so I won't really be touching on this, because I can't really give an opinion on it. however if this is a troll flaming, BAD TROLL , VERY BAD TROLL!

Garuss Acine wrote:wow, lots of hate for people looking to game when the budget is a bit tight. myself personally, I'd play him without bating an eye, an army is an army, I could care less where it comes from. be it the company that made the rules, another model supplier or even paper. its about a player base, and having spent time in an area that had next to zero for most of my entire gaming experience, and found myself less caring whats on the table, and who I am playing with. if I want to 'see' two armies going toe to toe, then gosh darnit I have something I call an imagination, and gee golly wiz, it's free to use when it comes to a game, a board game.

I buy models both online, and from my current FLGS(hell no doubt I've help him furnish his house having brought in easily over a $1,000 worth of business to his store in the last year alone) I also make sure to go out of my way and buy most if not all modeling supplies from his store. I do however see it as a very important step to encourage growth in the player base, and no doubt the store owner would see it the same way. having two players that buy solely from your store is fine a dandy, but having guy that buys a majority of his stuff off the internet or simply doesn't buy at all, bring in three to four more player who buy from your store, I see that as far from a negative. besides, if more people are playing the more likely they are to bring in more players, and more players equals more cash. not to mention if there is a larger player base, means more returned customers.

Those are pretty big checks your generalizations are writing... that all these exclusive internet shoppers bring in multiple new players? That 2d Paper models sells models and brings more gamers in? I am sure many store owners may disagree from their experiences... What if the people who buy in the store bring in dozens of people and the people with paper models or shop online bring no one? What happens then?

using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.

Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.

nkelsch wrote:using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.

Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.

Luckily, it's not your place to decide who has the right to play where. Every manager can decide for himself who to let in based on his particular circumstances.