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DreamWeaver wrote:Hi!

Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking...
So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that?
Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that?

Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.

However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do.

It's a topic that comes up ALL THE TIME. The general answer is - there are lots of reasons people play this game, and if two people expect to get different things out of a match, there's a good chance one is going to come away disappointed.

It sounds like the main reason to play the game for you is to 'kick ass' or play 'the game'. That's great. It doesn't matter if there are lovingly painted models or 2D bits of paper. Fine.

But there are an awful lot of people who don't really care about playing a 'hardcore' game - the reason they enjoy playing is to push around their lovely-looking armies. They obviously won't have much fun playing against 2d paper models, and don't want to spend their leisure time playing that way. They would say (and I would say) that if the reason you play the game is to 'kick ass' and be 'hardcore', you have a lot of growing up to do. And that's fine too.

Neither is wrong, they just want different things from a game.

lord_blackfang wrote:

nkelsch wrote:using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.

Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.

Luckily, it's not your place to decide who has the right to play where. Every manager can decide for himself who to let in based on his particular circumstances.

Actually, my models being fully painted, means I am welcome everywhere... and being an actual customer means managers listen to my feedback over people who show up and loiter... The issue is the OP posted all sorts of things about how people who disallow such play are ignorant and childish when there are very valid business reasons for banning such play and how it is unreasonable to expect to be able to be allowed to play EVERYWHERE with zero distinction between customers who have models to play with VS non customers taking up space with counterfeit product that directly competes with a store owner's livelihood.

Paper stand-ins will never be accepted everywhere nor should they be. The OP refuses to accept this truth. You can do whatever you want at home... No one will kick in your door and stomp on your paper minis there.

Since i've been on the receiving end of the 2d / paper army i'll chime in my experiences.

Example 1: A buddy consider a investiment in a brand new army, who wants to test it out at his house. Also known as "base hammer."
~ I have no issues with the above. Basically its a matter of a buddy who probably knows the game testing out an army before he plays it. This will likely include some proxies and such.

Example 2: Gamer using scratch build ork battlewagons, drop pods, etc.
~ As long as it fits the part, no issues here at all. Sometimes scratch built are better anyway.

Example 3: the example above of the person without employment wanting to play and utilizing paper models. If this is in a GW I'd ask to play a small point game with the store armies. If this is in a FLGS, i'd visit my example above. I would try to make a way to have the person have the models, as they are making the effort. If they are asking for a huge scale game, i'd likely decline. A small point game i'd likely go for it as there is a smaller time dedication, and maybe they can get into the hobby with 2nd hand models, gifts, etc. I am not a person who likes to see people turned away from gaming as there are a lot of positive aspects to the hobby. Which can include mental sanity for someone who has been actively searching for a job and is bummed out they cannot find one.

Example 4: tournment. No, absolutely not. Tournments you should have the models, I'd prefer them to be painted, but that's not for every event.

To the OP: while I have my opinions for different reasons, plenty of people will say "no models, no play" and they are entitled to do so. Its their time and their money. How they use it is up to them. Who each person plays is up to them, minus a tournment, but then going in your know what to expect. There are lots of gamers who are ok with paper models because hey its a game, but a lot of people I game with would just walk away, because they like seeing the models, its part of the enjoyment factor for them. Will a person sacrifice their own enjoyment for anothers? Not everyone will do it, some will do it for small point games, but its not wrong or right, its how they spend their time.

Would I play against someone with 2d cutouts instead of models? there are some provisions

1. That they are 2 pieces of card or paper that intersect to produce a front and side view so Los can be roughly measured

2. That they are still WYSIWYG.

3. That this person dosen't activly attempt to look down at me for having a mostly shop bought model army.

4. That some effort has been put into the stand in mini's

so in closing I'd play against someone using stand ins as long as they attempt to accuratly describe the size, scale and equiptment of the model they're standing in for, and the person attempting to use said stand in army isn't an arse about it.

Lots of talk back and forth about whether or not folks would play against paper armies. Here's the results of a poll I conducted a while back.

This represents the minimum representation for miniatures that would be considered acceptable to play against for those who consider them primarily gamers with little interest in painting or modeling.
Painted WYSIWYG armies. 6% [ 16 ]
Partially painted WYSIWYG armies 11% [ 28 ]
Unpainted WYSIWYG armies. 27% [ 67 ]
Unpainted, non WYSIWYG armies 26% [ 65 ]
Proxy armies of gaming minaitures (other army or other brand) 16% [ 39 ]
Army men or other toys/household items used for -but not visually representative of- gaming units/terrain. 2% [ 5 ]
Paper standup cutouts of the units/figures and 3d paper terrain. 1% [ 3 ]
Cardboard 2d cutouts and 2d outlines to define terrain. 2% [ 6 ]
Cardboard chits or other counters on a game map. 9% [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 251

It's not very scientific, and it does intentionally leave out those who favor the painting/modeling side of the hobby, so it has serious limitations.
However a couple of notable points from those surveyed.
-12% would play with paper models of some sort.
-30% wouldn't require a single GW model on the table.
-56% would play with entire armies that are both unpainted and non-WYSIWYG or less.

I stopped at the part where 2d models were applauded. Umm... no. Have some respect for the hobby, eh? Using cups as drop pods and cut outs for space marines just doesn't make any sense to me. Get off our lawn. You're playing the wrong game IMO if that's how you're gonna roll--there are plenty of 2D games out there to run to instead.
If you do this among friends and neither has a problem, then whatever, but I'm a pretty casual gamer (I play no more than 1-2 games a month, I model maybe once a month, and I'm a terrible painter so I rarely paint), but even I detest this nonsense.

If your a real life friend (person I'm cool with) I'll let you get away with just about anything.

Otherwise we can take my time machine back to 88-93 and play a game of BattleTech with the cardstock cutouts. Knowing a little bit about the guys situation makes me feel for him....a little. We wouldn't be playing in a FLGS, maybe my garage.

I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?

MightyGodzilla wrote:

I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?

I would be pretty sure GW would still require models at 'ardboyz because 'ardboyz is a shameful attempt to sell models and GW only cares about selling models. They still require WYSIWYG. Paper cutouts don't sell models for GW... Feel free to practice with paper as long as you show up to 'ardboyz with 2500 points of purchased plastic in GW's eyes.

The issue boils down to some people hate standards because they are excluded. As long as you game with like-minded gamers, you shouldn't have an issue. Don't rage against the machine when a standard you refuse to meet gets you excluded from a gaming location... That is where the internet rage comes from.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:They do for "intro games" but typically not for full scale games. (YRMV)

My local GW store has 8 40k and 6 Fantasy armies for use on "Beginner Battle Days" (generally Sunday.)

DreamWeaver wrote:

Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.

Can you post some pics of your 2D models that look just as badass , if not exactly the same, as the GW versions? Thanks!

njpc wrote:

Example 2: Gamer using scratch build ork battlewagons, drop pods, etc.
~ As long as it fits the part, no issues here at all. Sometimes scratch built are better anyway.

Example 3: the example above of the person without employment wanting to play and utilizing paper models. If this is in a GW I'd ask to play a small point game with the store armies. If this is in a FLGS, i'd visit my example above. I would try to make a way to have the person have the models, as they are making the effort. If they are asking for a huge scale game, i'd likely decline. A small point game i'd likely go for it as there is a smaller time dedication, and maybe they can get into the hobby with 2nd hand models, gifts, etc. I am not a person who likes to see people turned away from gaming as there are a lot of positive aspects to the hobby. Which can include mental sanity for someone who has been actively searching for a job and is bummed out they cannot find one.

I applaud these and especially think that example 3 rings a LOT of truth to me. It does help fill the day and stop you climbing walls, especially when you are unable to work due to something beyond your own control. Warhammer games on a budget means a lot of choices, and ebay trawling and can take quite some time to get stuff together. A year on and I'm nearing the playable army mark with the WoC in my blog.
My personal view point was it at least let me get back into painting in the months between ebay purchases as stuff got painted, stripped and repainted .

nkelsch wrote:

AustonT wrote: I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.

I know more than one store owner who would not be amused by your paper stand-ins as it is bad for business and insulting to loiter and be a non-customer in a place of business.

Then you know more than one store owner that wouldn't see a dollar from me. You seem to have missed that I dont just bring a paper army in fact I said:
If I'm forced to do so at the FLGS I always have a back up army and list read to go, you shouldn't have to play my proxies if you don't have to and I'm quite gracious about changing.
If my bags of legal models and past purchases encourage you to accuse me of loitering, you'll never see another of my dollars. And probably none of my friends either. Having used two or more of MY armies to tach new gamers and generate business in the FLGS' I frequent; attitudes like yours would convince me to spend my money elsewhere.
The point I was making that you clearly missed is that paper models have a place in our hobby, but they do not REplace actual models.

MightyGodzilla wrote:If your a real life friend (person I'm cool with) I'll let you get away with just about anything.

Otherwise we can take my time machine back to 88-93 and play a game of BattleTech with the cardstock cutouts. Knowing a little bit about the guys situation makes me feel for him....a little. We wouldn't be playing in a FLGS, maybe my garage.

I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?

I'm in the same boat here. Do I know you? yes? OK, you wanna try out something new, here use my models or use these models that I went and twisted some arms (or verbally berated someone) to make available for you.

nkelsch wrote:

Those are pretty big checks your generalizations are writing... that all these exclusive internet shoppers bring in multiple new players? That 2d Paper models sells models and brings more gamers in? I am sure many store owners may disagree from their experiences... What if the people who buy in the store bring in dozens of people and the people with paper models or shop online bring no one? What happens then?

using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.

Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.

well this is your choice, I just happen to disagree with it. just because they are not buying models, doesn't mean they can't support the FLGS in other ways, like buying sodas and snacks from the shop, or any other small item purchases.

as for my 'generalizations', I used them only because this has happened here at my local store, the only reason I stayed around at all was of the people playing with armies bought outside of the store. in truth I do the same, I buy what I have to have on the spot from the FLGS but everything else I get offline(trades, ebay, etc), and because of me directly, the store owner has had four people I guided to the store, to buy armies, some are now even considering picking up fantasy armies. if the owner had band second hand items, or models from entirely different retails, or just count as in general, I wouldn't have stayed and he would have been out at least 5 or so customers. when I first arrived not a big deal, but now about a year later, he is really relying on us die hards to bring in more players, which is why his store is not merely afloat, but seeming well off.

so you'd refuse to play someone with paper models because they don't support the store, well here is a question for you, what happens if a player buys all the models, buys glue, paints, brushes and the like, even assembles his stuff, but prefers to keep it all safe at home and instead uses 2d print outs of them to play? would you still refuse to play them? as clearly they are helping the gaming store, but want to ease the burden of putting their models at risk, or having to lug them around?

Garuss Acine wrote:

so you'd refuse to play someone with paper models because they don't support the store, well here is a question for you, what happens if a player buys all the models, buys glue, paints, brushes and the like, even assembles his stuff, but prefers to keep it all safe at home and instead uses 2d print outs of them to play? would you still refuse to play them? as clearly they are helping the gaming store, but want to ease the burden of putting their models at risk, or having to lug them around?

Yes. I would refuse to play this person because this person doesn't exist. Your scenario is a false premise and intellectually dishonest and not representative of the whole or even a minority. I don't think there is a single legitimate person who owns a full army and exclusively plays a 2D paper cut-out of that army.

Promoting paper play even if they supposedly own models in a closet promotes people not to purchase models but to counterfeit their own by making 2D paper cutouts instead of purchasing from the store. If they are worried about putting models at risk or lugging them around, they are in the wrong hobby or playing the wrong game... go play video games then.

I always enjoy seeing non-customers overestimate how much they support the store and the store owes them one fromt he sodas they drink. The owner is not running a 7-11 and your buying a soda and maybe giving him 25cent profit for the day is *NOT SUPPORT*.

I am glad there are tons of events out there with appearance requirements which purposfully exclude people. It makes the games overall better in quality and I enjoy playing with likeminded players who enjoy the same things I do. It is nice to know I am welcome everywhere becausemy models are official, painted and WYSIWYG.

It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.

Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.

And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.

Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.

And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.

Proxying is actually very common in MTG. People print out the card face and slip it into a sleeve with another unused card.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.

Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.

And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.

So from your example: your telling me people don't considering proxying in card games? I'd disagree. In my magic days, we did plenty of test gaming using photocopied cards / stand in cards instead of buying individual cards to see if things worked. I would think if you are even teaching a friends and its for own personal use. You could photocopy your entire deck, put it in sleeves, and your friends would try it out. Then if they liked it, start collecting. Proxying is common place amongst games shop hobby systems.

Part of your statement is 100% accurate.
In competitive play IE tournments proxying / stand in's will not be allowed.

Platuan4th wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.

Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.

And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.

Proxying is actually very common in MTG. People print out the card face and slip it into a sleeve with another unused card.

Seriously? I've honestly never seen it. That's not allowed in tournament settings or the like, right?

Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

No, not allowed in tourneys. Many done in friendly games where people are doing deck designs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

You should try to support them in some way if you'd like to keep them in your community (and game at their stores). Full retail 100% of the time, no. But would it hurt that badly to buy glues, paints, the occasional $25 box or two at full retail instead of $20 online. Also you don't have to blab (not saying that you do btw) about excellent online prices to complete strangers a block away from the GW. Just tell your buddies, and let GW shark the strangers to keep themselves afloat.

Back to wargameing...

I would personaly much prefer to see colour, stand up, card cuttouts than bear plastic. I think that annoys me more than anything. Painting takes time, models cost money. Some people cant paint very well or afford minis, or hate painting. Fine, but at least put the minimum effot in of base coating the models. At least there is a reason for card, and as long as someone has taken the time to stand them up and cut them out properly then fair enough.

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business.

If you like it enough to spend time in there, then you obviously find value in what they provide and should pay for it if you wish to continue receiving it.

Or, if you prefer, analogy:

"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"

"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"

"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"

I guess for me if I'm looking for a game to test a new army/mechanics/crunch, I could care less what your or my armies look like.

However, if I've got a nice looking army (Note I didn't say GW models, or even plastic. Just good-looking), I'd expect your stuff to be equally nice-looking. This also includes WYSIWYG: I'd be overjoyed at playing against a paper-cutout Nids army that is perfect WYSIWYG if it meant not playing the guy with 100% GW Eldar that he's proxying for SW. Doubly so if the Eldar are greys/black-primer.

As for the FLGS, it depends on what I use the FLGS for (Let us assume for this example I only buy online for models and glue/paint/etc).
If my FLGS is a GW, and I never use the tables, you're damn right I'll buy from a cheaper alternative, especially if the prices are drastically higher. There's no reason for me to set foot inside the store in this scenario.

If I use the tables or occasional tourney in the GW store, I'll buy the occasional kit, perhaps to a value of $5-10 for every couple games or something overall, so I personally don't feel like I'm freeloading.

If it's a Non-GW store (So sells gaming/modeling stuff apart from GW models), there's a high chance I'll buy non-model items from them, whether or not I use their tables. If I do use their tables, see the above for approximate purchases-to-games ratio.

Ouze wrote:Or, if you prefer, analogy:

"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"

"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"

"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. I salute you.

Ouze wrote:
"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"

I'm going to say yes on this one, because you can brew much better quality and tasting coffee than the crud Starbucks tries to pass as "coffee".

Ouze wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business.

Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise.

vhwolf wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business.

Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise.

1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.

2. To vhwolf: Not having a sitting area never stopped teenagers from clogging the aisles to hang out and not buy anything. We had to kick them out weekly for being a fire hazard.

Fact of the matter is this, you place that $hat on the table against me, i pack my $hat up and walk away. It is rude, it is offensive, it is foul. If you dont have the models to play, dont play against someone you dont know. In a friendly game it is perfectly fine, but not against some random bloke at a gamestore!

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

Well, if you're using their facilities to paint or play in, then yes, you should support your local store.

My local store is also a GW store. It's the only option that I have within the radius that I can travel for "hobby stuff" since I am effectively "on call" 24/7 for an elderly parent. Without that GW store, I have no hobby store. Plus, that store employs several of my friends, so if it closes, not only am I out of a store, my friends are out of jobs.

That's why I buy from that store even though I can get everything cheaper from an online source.