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@mullet_steve: See, this seems like a great idea to me. It removes the ambiguity of "How much is enough to be a paying customer," while also keeping the moochers away. Your prices seem pretty fair to me, since this wouldn't drive away non-customers (People who'd be willing to pay $2 for the table but not $10 on models or something like that).

Heck, you could even set up a "Membership" for your store: It costs $X per month, and in exchange you get a Y% discount and use of the tables for free or at a discount. This would also keep the income stream to the store steady, instead of it being variable based on purchases:

Ie, 3 people over a 6 month period may only buy $50 worth of models, say netting them 3 free vouchers for a table and giving the store only $50 of imaginary profit.

Over the same amount of time, a $10/month membership would net the store $180 in profit not counting any models bought by the customers, and probably encourage the customers to come in and play more often (During which there's a better chance of them buying models and refreshments, further adding to the store profits).

the idea or scheme is however entirely based on the store owner having the idea on his own or given to him/her/them..... I don't know how many FLAG's owners read dakka?

darkPrince010 wrote:@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?

Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.

As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.

But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.

If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...

http://www.yourmovegames.com/battleground_index.html

this game uses 2d units and plays similar to fantasy. To be honest if GW came out with 2d cards like this where you could cross off members of the unit as they died I think more people would play fantasy. It would allow people to try the game before buying models and proxy units in an official way. This would result in more opponents which is good and starting the game wouldn't be as large of an investment. I only think this would work for fantasy smoothly though because of ranking up. I suppose you could use it for 40k too but it would be more difficult.

nkelsch wrote: You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

This seems a bit extreme, especially when 15-18% is considered the standard tip. I prefer to tip 18-25 depending on the service, but 20% is not generally the cutoff for "human scum" in the USA.

Miss Manners states:

Knowing this, polite people leave at least the conventional tip (a 15 percent minimum before tax is added) regardless of the quality of the service. (If it is bad, they should complain, as in other cases when people do not perform adequately what they are hired to do.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31070-2004Nov6.html

As to the particular tangent of this topc regarding what is supporting your local store, I agree with you that it should be common sense regarding what is or isn't support. As I buy almost exclusively out of print, or indie minaitures and games, my support for my FLGS (where I game once every 2 weeks) is less than it should be, but I do make an effort to buy things there and even do the occasional special order. Unfortunately, there will always be those who want tables for nothing. For those people, there is only the pressure of their peers to bring them in line or the boot of the FLGS owner to drive them out.

nkelsch wrote:

But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.

If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Book stores are going out of business because they have a dying business model. They did fine with allowing people to sit and read in their stores, even setting up little coffee shops inside some of the stores. They probably gained customers by having such an inviting atmosphere. With the rise of the electronic book medium, paper books are becoming a thing of the past. Amazon realized this over a decade ago and altered their business model.

I love my FLGS because they have the same type of atmosphere there. It is owned and staffed by people who love gaming/comic books, and have developed an extremely loyal customer base by understanding that if they provide tables and space for gamers to hang out and game, then those gamers will make purchases at that store. They don't need to come up with some kind of system to ensure that every customer pay for a table, or purchase more than a snack at every visit. If they did those sorts of things, they likely would not have the customer base that they do, and may have went the way of the buffalo, just like so many other shops I've seen come and go.

I also fail to see what this has to do with the debate over using papar models. I wouldn't play somebody using 2d models, because 2d models don't allow for true line of sight. Would I play against 3d paper models? Yeah, but I wouldn't want to all of the time.

dripwelquest wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.

If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.

20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.

nkelsch wrote:If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

That really wasn't necessary... Meanie!

I understand that you dislike people feeling entitled to stuff without paying, and I agree: Store resources should only be for paying customers.

However...

You still haven't stated what you think would be a fair price or sum total of stuff bought to be a "valuable and/or paying customer." Therin lies the problem: If I go to FLGS A, and am allowed to use their tables for several hours in exchange for buying a candy bar or a pack of MtG, and then go to FLGS B and am shunned/kicked out for doing the same, how was I (assuming I've never gone to the more expensive store before) suppossed to know the minimal purchase. Moreover, what incentive would I have to go to the more expensive store and risk being treated like a pariah again if I incorrectly guess the minimal purchase amount?

If problems like this bug you so much, then if you are a store owner, be sure to make you minimum purchase/maximum time rules clear to everyone coming in. Unlcear, vague, or implied social rules are just that: Social. Depending on your background, you could have a 180 degree different set of social rules and expectations than someone else, but you can't jump down their throats for not knowing your personal set of ideals.

I can guarantee you that regardless of what I wanted to purchase or how much I'd liked the store, if I was randomly approached and told to leave because of insufficient purchases, with no forewarning, that store would never see me darken their threshold again, and I'd actively reccomend my friends against it. If you gave me fair warning as I came in, or had posted rules along the same lines, I'd know my error and probably visit again, purchasing as per the rules. If you simply gave me the stink-eye everytime I wasn't carrying merchandise in my hands to the checkout line, I'd probably find every way I could to warn my acquaintances against shopping there.

Slight anecdote:
We have a LGS that has a bit of an issue with this, assuming everyone who isn't carrying merchandise or participating in a MtG tournament (They also have Warhammer, Malifaux, WM/H, etc.) is probably going to steal stuff, and they come over and are very rude to you. As a result, my entire local club of 30+ hardcore gamers have dropped the store and used the only other store in the area instead, actively reccomending any gamers we encounter against this store (We're from a pair of nearby small towns, so we represent probably 1/4 or so of the entire gaming population for the nearest 60 miles). These same gamers would have bought thousands of dollars of merchandise, but thanks to a store owner's poor behavior towards potential customers, the only people they have in the store anymore are a half-dozen elementary school kids playing MtG and Yu-Gi-Oh once a week...
/End Anecdote

EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.

nectarprime wrote:

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.

20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.

You do know in many states that waiters work for only Tips and have no wages... and usually 10% of the total of the checks have to be paid out of the waiters pocket to the manager, the bartender and busboy... Poor tips can not only deny someone a living wage but often end up for them to pay out of pocket for them serving you.

If you can't afford 20%, you shouldn't be going out to eat. Giving a tip for poor service or quality is one thing, but have the balls to make a remark to the manager opposed to simply leaving a low tip and sneaking out before you make eye contact with your waiter. Maybe you don't have many friends who know about the service industry or are just somewhat cheap individuals... If I leave 15%, the manager has a right to know why you were dissatisfied. Anything less than 15% denies a living wage for many people like the busboy and since I am not big on slavery I would rather tip correctly and vocalize my complaints opposed to be stingy on a tip without saying a word.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/HeresATip20PercentIsTheNew15Percent.aspx

I would love for Tips to be actual tips, but in the US they are not. They are living wage for people and are designed to be paid regardless of service quality. Some states have changed that guaranteeing all employees minimum wage... my region is not one of those states... so it is 20% or you are harming innocent people.

EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.

Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery. If you believe a TIP is for quality service, you would be wrong in the US. In Europe it is... in the US it is not. If you can't understand how the US wait staff financials work in your region and your minimum wage laws, you shouldn't be eating out. You should be smart enough to know how tipping actually works and who it impacts... bad service is no excuse for denying someone a living wage or harming other parties who provide a service you do not see like busboys.

If you know how US tipping works in relation to wages and still choose to stiff people, that is pretty horrible... If it is out of ignorance, then go google it and figure out your local wait staff minimum wage laws.

This is the same type of inconsiderate behavior which has people thinking buying a snickers bar supports the store the same way they think Tips are 'rewards for good service' when they simply are not that way in the US.

nkelsch wrote:
words

You seem to have an attitude problem. You should learn how to have a discussion with people as opposed to being accusatory and coming off as rude, which is what you are currently doing.

I was going to type a longer response but I won't bother. Welcome to my ignore list sir!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.

Uh....

I give a "living wage" to people who earn it. I wouldn't pay a painter the full amount if they painted only one side of my house and then slept the rest of the day away. Likewise, if my waiter gets me my drinks and then disappears for the next 45 minutes (excluding extenuating circumstances like a huge crowd or something), they have not done their job in my eyes and do not deserve a tip.

Besides, in my area (Washington State) wait staff are required to be paid minimum wage, and tips are extra on top of that. I'm sorry that's not the case in your area, and I agree it's not right, but in my area it's perfectly acceptable to use a tip as a carrot for good waiter behavior.

This is getting ridiculously OT though. Someone, anyone, please comment on the paper vs. plastic debate!

nectarprime wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.

Uh....

Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept the wage laws for wait staff int he US doesn't make it not true. There is a reason New York City is forcing 18% mandatory gratuity on all checks in a large number of restaurants now because of the international crowd who doesn't understand the difference between European gratuity and US minimum wage laws. I can excuse Europeans who misunderstand, but Americans should have the capacity to fully understand how wages work in their state.

And it is not the 1970s... 15% is now considered minimal tip for poor service and 20% is average service.

This is why I am never surprised when people can't understand how they are not supporting their FLGS... these people can't even handle tipping at restaurants let alone being a respectful customer at their FLGS.

nkelsch wrote:Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.

"That's right, forty lashes and a 5% tip for spilling my drink on my lap and ignoring me for half an hour!"

EDIT:

nkelsch wrote:I can excuse Europeans who misunderstand, but Americans should have the capacity to fully understand how wages work in their state.

"Waiters, on average, fail to report at least 40% of their tips according to the IRS." -From a 2002 IRS bulletin.

Last I understood, the way wages work, you have to pay taxes on them...

You linked an article wherein the only logic for tipping 20% was lazy math, bravo.
Tips are gratuity, to use the proper term. And are a gift based on how I feel my server has done. The fact that in most states tipped employees are paid a specific minimum wage well below the federal minimum wage doesn't sway me a bit. gakky service does not deserve my graciousness, my wife and I tip 15% for average service, 10 for sub par service, 20 for good service and as much as we want to especially engaging servers who really make our night. One particular waitress that treated my wife with extreme disrespect didn't receive her 5% tip entirely in pennies only because my wife wouldn't let me have her coin rolls. Her manager also earned a bent ear. This entire subject of gratuity is off the original topic but because of your vitriol and general disagreeable nature it's worth pointing out that you are patently incorrect. Tipping is not mandatory. It's not about being cheap, it's about an expectation of service.

It is at least encouraging that your world is surrounded on all sides by reality, and your skewed opinion extends beyond wargaming and it's establishments.

nkelsch wrote:

nectarprime wrote:

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.

20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.

You do know in many states that waiters work for only Tips and have no wages... and usually 10% of the total of the checks have to be paid out of the waiters pocket to the manager, the bartender and busboy... Poor tips can not only deny someone a living wage but often end up for them to pay out of pocket for them serving you.

If you can't afford 20%, you shouldn't be going out to eat. Giving a tip for poor service or quality is one thing, but have the balls to make a remark to the manager opposed to simply leaving a low tip and sneaking out before you make eye contact with your waiter. Maybe you don't have many friends who know about the service industry or are just somewhat cheap individuals... If I leave 15%, the manager has a right to know why you were dissatisfied. Anything less than 15% denies a living wage for many people like the busboy and since I am not big on slavery I would rather tip correctly and vocalize my complaints opposed to be stingy on a tip without saying a word.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/HeresATip20PercentIsTheNew15Percent.aspx

I would love for Tips to be actual tips, but in the US they are not. They are living wage for people and are designed to be paid regardless of service quality. Some states have changed that guaranteeing all employees minimum wage... my region is not one of those states... so it is 20% or you are harming innocent people.

EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.

Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery. If you believe a TIP is for quality service, you would be wrong in the US. In Europe it is... in the US it is not. If you can't understand how the US wait staff financials work in your region and your minimum wage laws, you shouldn't be eating out. You should be smart enough to know how tipping actually works and who it impacts... bad service is no excuse for denying someone a living wage or harming other parties who provide a service you do not see like busboys.

If you know how US tipping works in relation to wages and still choose to stiff people, that is pretty horrible... If it is out of ignorance, then go google it and figure out your local wait staff minimum wage laws.

This is the same type of inconsiderate behavior which has people thinking buying a snickers bar supports the store the same way they think Tips are 'rewards for good service' when they simply are not that way in the US.

this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Paper it's so great or rubbish whichever train of thought will get this back on topic

ON TOPIC!!!!!

On 2d models: still useful for playtesting. I didn't even know what vassal was until last week, and now I have to find where it's hiding. For TLOS you turn the model so it's facing the model you are measuring from. If it's a vehicle it should be a 3d model anyways, there's no wiggle room for armor facing, cover, etc.

mullet_steve wrote:
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.

REALLY?!

So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live?

You honestly think that will change things?

Lol. That brings to mind a 2D rhino: "What do you mean all you can see is a line?"

I personally have a ~3K point Tyranid army made from OneMonk's Chimera Brood (Before he started charging for pdfs again). They work great, and although I rarely use them anymore, I'm glad I used them instead of plastic models because otherwise I would have learned the hard way that Venom Cannon Carnifexes, loads of Tyranid Warriors, Pyrovores in a drop pod, and a Mawloc does not make for an effective army...

Platuan4th wrote:

mullet_steve wrote:
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.

REALLY?!

So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live?

You honestly think that will change things?

Yes. If no one can afford to live working as a waitress they won't be waitresses and the resturaunts will be forced to hire new staff at better wages. Go to resturants that pay decent wages. Ask before you eat what the staff get paid?

So yes I think that refusing to spend your money at resturants that underpay their staff would eventualy change things

mullet_steve wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

mullet_steve wrote:
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.

REALLY?!

So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live?

You honestly think that will change things?

Yes. If no one can afford to live working as a waitress they won't be waitresses and the resturaunts will be forced to hire new staff at better wages. Go to resturants that pay decent wages. Ask before you eat what the staff get paid?

So yes I think that refusing to spend your money at resturants that underpay their staff would eventualy change things

But then the restaurants will have to raise their menu prices which will turn people away. Sounds like a suicide mission.
I worked at Applebee's for 3 years. The waiters/waitresses get paid a little over a dollar an hour. TIP YOUR SERVER. You can choose to go to a restaurant that doesn't have servers, but if you are being waited on, then you should be tipping.

What does this have to do about paper vs plastic, anyways?

Umm Im just going to throw this at you Coldfire you take it how you want. Are you sure? CA requires all employees be paid the state minimum wage and that all gratuity is the sole property of the employee and cannot be used directly or indirectly as credit towards the mandated cash wage.

Well, this was in South Carolina, and apparently minimum wage doesn't apply to waiters around there because I asked about it on several occassions. I'm sure I can dig up some past wage statements where I was getting paid $2 an hour. I'm not just sure, I'm 100% positive. I lived it.

Min wage doesn't apply to wait staff in many(if not all) states, as they supplement their wages with tips.

So it's ignorant to blame the business when it's the law that determines it.

What Platuan4th said.
It was actually quite comical when I got a dollar raise all the way up to $3/hr.

It's the same in Wisconsin. Wait staff does not have to be paid minimum wage. When I was a manager are staff was paid $2.25 per hour.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Well, this was in South Carolina, and apparently minimum wage doesn't apply to waiters around there because I asked about it on several occassions. I'm sure I can dig up some past wage statements where I was getting paid $2 an hour. I'm not just sure, I'm 100% positive. I lived it.

California is one of the few states with full minimum wage for servers... It very much is a local and state issue which is why it is on my 'list' of things when I contact my local elected officials every election cycle. I would have no issue with Cali people having different stances on tipping, especially if they are informed positions.

And it isn't the restaurant's fault necessarily since it is part of the tax law. The restaurants don't have a choice in the matter as the laws of the state require the wage to be lower with the expectation of the tips providing the rest. They actually get taxed on the tips whether they make them or not. It is not terribly uncommon for some people on a slow night to actually have to pay the restaurant or the government out of their own pocket to cover taxes for tipwages they didn't even earn and go home with no paycheck for the night.

Now personally, I don't agree with the practice and I personally would welcome higher food prices... but I also understand economically, many businesses could be harmed and people out of jobs with a drastic change in the laws. So while I can push for change, in the meanwhile in order to not harm the innocent, If I go out to eat, I have to tip. Refusing to tip all together is wrong... Refusing to eat at restaurants is the correct way to show disapproval... Continuing to eat out, getting your service and cutting back nothing and then refusing to tip is terrible! It is like ending animal cruelty by killing all the pets.. at least no animals will be abused anymore! I support the waiters by paint the high tips in my area because how wages work and also get involved in my local discussion on how such law changes will help/hurt wait staff and businesses.

Right now, the system relies on social conscience and etiquette, and *MOST* people follow it so it works. This is the same situation with FLGS... FLGS work because of a social conscience and etiquette most people intrinsically have when they support the local store. And just like restaurant tipping, there is a percentage of the population who through ignorance or just not caring, break these social norms and harm the establishments they frequent. Most people I think would rather have unfunded play at FLGS with the expectation that we are adults and support the store the best we can. Personally, I feel actions like 100% internet shopping, paper/cokecan proxies, counterfeiting minis and illegally downloading publications are all actions that harm and disrespect the FLGS... If most people respect and support the store, a mandatory gaming fee or rigid rules are unnecessary, the same way changing minimum wage is unnecessary if people tip correctly.

I don't think using an entire 2D paper proxy army is respectful of a store owner and his free gaming space he provides. I think it is fine for playtesting or limited use, usually done at home or in club night, but when you game in a store you are not only using up his space and rent but also you are promoting sales by showing the hobby at its best. I have been told that sales drastically increase on days where events require painted models as parents get a better feeling when they see a hobby that will drive lil JR to sit down and do something worthwhile like paint opposed to 300$ for instant gratification video game bard game. I think there is a valid reason that painted events take weekend primetime and unpainted general play is often weeknights with low street traffic. I only use painted models out of respect for the store owners and more than once I have been thanked for it. I also feel these paper models in no way deserve any part of 'equal gaming rights' and should totally be disallowed from well-run events and all tourneys. I do not buy the whole 'hardcore gamer' premise of the OP.

If your FLGS allows 2Dpaper model standinds, good for you... I feel it is disrespectful because the owner makes money off selling models, not watching you play with 2D paper armies and snickers bars. This is before the considering the general attitude of gamers which is probably going to find lots of hobbiests who would not be happy with being forced to play against it.

I only know about CA because a friend moved from AZ to there. AZs tip rate is like 3.25 I think, she was pleasantly surprised because she asked the parent company to transfer her, so she didn't even have to apply for a new job.

@nkelsch You wrote too much than I care to read on this subject, but I did get to the second paragraph--I do recall some servers actually owing money for the night. I was going to mention it initially but I wasn't sure anyone would believe it.

If we wish to discuss tipping etiquette, perhaps a new thread could be started.

To the OP, lets see these paper proxies. I'm not sue how this discussion can continue intelligently until that happens. Rule of Cool and all.