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Platuan4th wrote:

vhwolf wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Vermillion wrote:

Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise.

1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.

2. To vhwolf: Not having a sitting area never stopped teenagers from clogging the aisles to hang out and not buy anything. We had to kick them out weekly for being a fire hazard.

Just proves the point that some people will abuse anything they can get away with. Also that you should support the places you frequent.

Garuss Acine wrote:

well this is your choice, I just happen to disagree with it. just because they are not buying models, doesn't mean they can't support the FLGS in other ways, like buying sodas and snacks from the shop, or any other small item purchases.

I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...

darkPrince010 wrote:

malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...

No, but it should be adopted. Just like Orks, the Big ones get to lead.

I just think it's a mistake to assume that only buying snacks
at the game store is supporting the store. The first part of my
sentence is serious, the getting in line in front of a paying
customer is not.

nkelsch wrote:

Yes. I would refuse to play this person because this person doesn't exist. Your scenario is a false premise and intellectually dishonest and not representative of the whole or even a minority. I don't think there is a single legitimate person who owns a full army and exclusively plays a 2D paper cut-out of that army.

Promoting paper play even if they supposedly own models in a closet promotes people not to purchase models but to counterfeit their own by making 2D paper cutouts instead of purchasing from the store. If they are worried about putting models at risk or lugging them around, they are in the wrong hobby or playing the wrong game... go play video games then.

I always enjoy seeing non-customers overestimate how much they support the store and the store owes them one fromt he sodas they drink. The owner is not running a 7-11 and your buying a soda and maybe giving him 25cent profit for the day is *NOT SUPPORT*.

I am glad there are tons of events out there with appearance requirements which purposfully exclude people. It makes the games overall better in quality and I enjoy playing with likeminded players who enjoy the same things I do. It is nice to know I am welcome everywhere becausemy models are official, painted and WYSIWYG.

firstly you'll note I didn't argue that this person did or did not exist, it was simple if this happened, against all the odds. from your terms I am guessing you are/were a store owner at some point, that or simply a disgruntled GW buyer like the lot of us . I am simply going to disagree with you, as clearly you have no desire to see anything other than your side in this matter. of course this all up to opinions and we all have a right to our own.

as i had said in my first post, I alone have brought in well over a grand worth of business to this FLGS, I know this because we are given 10% of our purchases as store credit(normally 5%, it goes up to ten after your first $1,000 spent). and seeing as I have roughly $100 in store credit I can safely say I have brought in enough to support the store. do I assume I am owed anything by the owner, hell no, for all I could care he could close his tables down and turn them into space for more stock, I'd just no longer have a reason to go there anymore(a 45min train ride one way).

events/tournies are a whole different can of worms, and I won't even touch that subject, in truth thats why I never go. I have no issues meeting the standards, I just have no desire to be told how to have my army by anyone other than myself. paired with the utter lack of events/tournies ever around or within distance to go, to the horror stories of my firends that have gone, I have lost any real interest in them, and am more happy to stick to the laid back, garage/LGS groups that simply play for the fun of it, with an understanding lot and owner of a store.

darkPrince010 wrote:

malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...

Yes... They should. Any adult with a high school education should be well aware with the almost nonexistent profit margin on these so called profitable snacks and that purchasing them in no way is fulfilling your part as a respectful customer spending all day taking up gaming space in the owners store.

If there was a real customer making a real purchase or asking real questions then yes... They should be moved to the front of the line before the guy buying a snickers bar in a shop that sells games and minis.

I'm not saying that snacks are profitable; I'm just saying that assigning greater status to a customer based on purchase size seems like a darn quick way to lose customers.

For those of you with any store or business, I dare you to allow people in line to pay first only based on the total of the stock they have in their basket, and to give less and less respect to people who buy less and less inventory...

I'd be willing to bet that not only would you alienate the people that would have bought minor purchases, you'll probably piss off people who would/do buy more and drive your business away.

You don't see grocery stores turning away the guys in the Express lanes or serving the person buying a month's groceries first simply because it'll net them more profit. This is because it's a poor, some would say gakky, business practice that would lose them customers faster then darn near any other practice I could think of that's within the boundaries of legality.

Platuan4th wrote:1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.

I'll try and remember to omit the S. Tangent: After quitting working Waldenbooks years ago, I applied at a BN. A few weeks later I got a postcard from them saying they had hired someone else for the position. I remember thinking how tasteful of them it was to send that postcard. I've never had any other job I've ever applied for do such a thing, and although I obviously would have preferred the job, I remember really appreciating that at least I wouldn't have to wonder if they were ever going to call.

I'm guessing the sort of people who think its ok to play paper models without testing in mind are the sort of people who think its ok to make a Toyota look like a Ferrari and turn up to shows and events showing off their 'supercar'.

I personally wouldn't play against a 2d army I spent a fair amount of time and money making my army and expect my oppent to honour this with actual models and not take the piss by deploying an army of cereal boxes!

As said if you just want to play the game play vassle or dawn of war but then you probably prefer a pirate copy of that so cant play it onine

Ouze wrote:
"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"

"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"

"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"

My sides hurt from loling so much. Very good points, especially about support places you want kept around. Honestly no proper gaming store near me either and the thing should have been in quotes. I'm glad it's started some discussion and see some people think despite the extra expense, even in the current economic mess, supporting a GW store is the way to go.
Niow that is indeed a good thing, it keeps a local place for gamers to meet up, and a place where people can initially get into the hobby. They go in have a look around, a spark of interest is there they start buying. Akin to I assume the book store comparison where people sit flick through the books and get into them so much they buy them there and then to finish reading.
All well and good in an ideal world. But lets be honest, way things are these days if people can save a bit they will choose to. It's why comparison sites are popping up left right and centre. Putting this back into the original discussions context I'm agreeing in a store, yeah bit of a bad idea to bring out some scribbled on paper to represent your land raider or a can is a monolith. Friendly at home try a list out thing before buying I understand (surely though theres better ways? Perhaps a discussion for another thread).
Supporting somewhere local, in theory a good idea, even split your buys 50-50 in a pinch. If it's the cost of postage from a company or higher to even get to a local place (my circumstances past few months) then I'd stick with a discount and postage though and if theres no local gaming club see about starting one

On a side note though munchies at cinemas are overpriced

darkPrince010 wrote:I'm not saying that snacks are profitable; I'm just saying that assigning greater status to a customer based on purchase size seems like a darn quick way to lose customers.

For those of you with any store or business, I dare you to allow people in line to pay first only based on the total of the stock they have in their basket, and to give less and less respect to people who buy less and less inventory...

I'd be willing to bet that not only would you alienate the people that would have bought minor purchases, you'll probably piss off people who would/do buy more and drive your business away.

You don't see grocery stores turning away the guys in the Express lanes or serving the person buying a month's groceries first simply because it'll net them more profit. This is because it's a poor, some would say gakky, business practice that would lose them customers faster then darn near any other practice I could think of that's within the boundaries of legality.

Like a FLGS has a long line in reality?

You can't compare a grocery store to a FLGS because you are not hanging out in the grocery store for multiple hours at a time, using their stoves or sitting at a dining table for hours on end without paying anything. If they had that SERVICE in addition to being a retail store, damn straight the service would be a free premium on top of retail business and go to the people who 'buy more' first.

I think alienating NON-CUSTOMERS like your candy bar supporter is fine because they are non customers and are overestimating their worth as a customer based off of the paltry support they show via buying worthless items. It is like a manager at a restaurant asking you to leave a table because you sat there for 2 hours eating free bread and tap water while a paying customer who wants to order a steak dinner wishes to be seated. I see rude people all the time monopolize tables without buying food at bars our outside seating and basically the waiter then has a hole in his wait section where he is making no money or tip... all because someone thinks they are a paying customer sitting outside for 3 hours at a dining table sipping diet cokes. I have witnessed managers asking them to leave and they get all indignant, and I then tell the manager I support their decision, because I, the paying customer who wanted to eat at this restaurant had to wait for a table because this person was basically loitering and HARMING the business and taking money out of the waiters pocket.

Asking loiterers to leave your store is a common business practice... Either you misunderstand economics or are simply entitled that you believe you deserve a place to game and people to game against without having to pay for it.

It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.

I don't get to play nearly as often as I like.
To be honest part of the experience for me is the look of my opponents army.
Why should I waste my valuable and scarce playing time playing against a paper army?
For me, there is nothing as satisfying (gaming wise) as a game between two fully painted armies on a well made board.

Ouze wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.

I'll try and remember to omit the S. Tangent: After quitting working Waldenbooks years ago, I applied at a BN. A few weeks later I got a postcard from them saying they had hired someone else for the position. I remember thinking how tasteful of them it was to send that postcard. I've never had any other job I've ever applied for do such a thing, and although I obviously would have preferred the job, I remember really appreciating that at least I wouldn't have to wonder if they were ever going to call.

Yeah, other than the hours restrictions(only managers can get 40 hours, "full time" are generally restricted to 32 hours and keeping a tight rein on "overtime" for all employees) to stay in budget, the company is very good about its employees and potential hires. They're the only store I know of that tends to keep almost every seasonal worker(except those people that only wanted to work seasonally or that are REALLY bad at the job) after seasonal work is over. The cafe has a high turn over rate, though, due to stress(not all of which is tied to explaining to 20+ people a day that the cafe isn't a Starbucks, they just serve Starbucks coffee).

AustonT wrote:It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.

At least I don't feel like I am entitled to game for hours on a FLGS store owner's tables for hours with paper 2D cutouts of a product the store sells but I refuse to buy because I bought a candy bar once. I would rather be a socially aware and respectful snob than an entitled selfish mooch unaware or purposefully ignorant to how his actions impact others.

AustonT wrote:It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.

Can we not make comments like this please, they don't advance the conversation in any useful way and just put people's backs up. And rightfully so.

.. we'll see if this thread still has any mileage left in. But let's please leave the insults and digs out.

Obliged.

nkelsch wrote:
At least I don't feel like I am entitled to game for hours on a FLGS store owner's tables for hours with paper 2D cutouts of a product the store sells but I refuse to buy because I bought a candy bar once. I would rather be a socially aware and respectful snob than an entitled selfish mooch unaware or purposefully ignorant to how his actions impact others.

Even in my broke college days, I always managed to pick up a pot of paint, or a pack of magic cards or something during the long gaming days.

After I got hired there, I completely came to loathe the "free breathers" as I termed them. The worst was the one RPG group using the back room. When i started working the evening shift, I came to realize that the group was using the stock on the shelves as their free "library". Went in the back room and of 10 books on the table, 9 were store property. The guy before me (who was fired for being damn lazy) just let it happen. Needless to say, the one book with the broken spine they had to replace and they were banned.

We also solved the "buying candy" problem by buying a vending machine at a local auction and making a Costco run once a month.

Here is my thing. I got into 40K right after college. I had a job, and no bills and I still stayed with my parents. I had disposable income soI bought an army. Shortly after that I moved out, got married and had lots of bills.

I did not buy any more models for about 3 years. ANd when I did, I slowing bought a unit at a time.

This is an expensive hobby. Like it or not, but it takes money to play this game.

Oh, the shame...
I just realized that I (and you all as well) have been sucked into a near-flamewar by a greenhorn who still hasn't show us the..

DreamWeaver wrote:
... 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same...

...that were his (or her) entire justification for starting this thread. I'm going to tentatively call Shenanigans on this one.

I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.

Eilif wrote:
I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.

Well spotted, old chap. I dare say this Dreamweaver fellow has created quite the rucuss and bru-haha.

I demand satisfaction, post haste.

Lol the newbee may have started a heated topic and done a runner but the topic of conversation has brought up some interesting ideas?

Eilif wrote:Oh, the shame...
I just realized that I (and you all as well) have been sucked into a near-flamewar by a greenhorn who still hasn't show us the..

DreamWeaver wrote:
... 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same...

...that were his (or her) entire justification for starting this thread. I'm going to tentatively call Shenanigans on this one.

I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.

Although I do understand why from an economic basis some stores do not like people utilising stand in models I utterly fail to see how anyone anywhere can question the validity of scratchbuilt models, whether they be plasticard or paperstock.... They had to get the materials from somewhere???

mullet_steve wrote:Although I do understand why from an economic basis some stores do not like people utilising stand in models I utterly fail to see how anyone anywhere can question the validity of scratchbuilt models, whether they be plasticard or paperstock.... They had to get the materials from somewhere???

I don't think people are lumping in using scratchbuilt but honest effort drop pods as part of an overall army of minis with 2D paper standinds for an entire army...

Any attempt to lump scratchbuilds with an entire 2D paper army is an attempt to cloud the issue. I think everyone realizes some scratchbuilds are ok and are usually held to the 'rule of cool'. A nice drop pod will get a lot more play over a dixie cup with a pen top glued to it.

Scratchbuilt cardstock models are sweet, but a 2d paperstand
model would make me lol for a little bit and then eventually I
would not want to play against it.

Not that my opinion matters, but if you asked me to play
against it, I would probably only do so a few times unless
hilarity was guaranteed for every game.

Yet somewhere on these pages and in general rumours I have heared and remember only half heartedly I recall people stating that in certain flags and tournaments that a model or army has to be at least 50% GW to be included. This would appear to be a related issue even if only vaguely.

The percentage GW thing is more fluid than you might think. No one goes out of thier way to confirm how much of the model is GW unless it's blatantly a 3rd party model or looks wonky. It's easier to buy a set of Heavy bolters and glue them on rather than scratch building then, if only to avoid the hassle.

@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?

Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.

As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.

darkPrince010 wrote:@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?

Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.

As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.

Taking that onboard would people agree to a system whereby you rent the gaming table? An imaginary store owner could write up a contract that states a purchase of $5.00 gives you a 50% discount voucher $10.00 or more gets you either one 100% discount voucher or 1 voucher per $10.00 spent and table rent could be as low as $2 each or something like that?

This would allow loyal customers to play for free whereby new and non custmoers that want to use the table will have to pay.