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This was a question that I dredged up while I was looking at expanding my 1,500 point DE army to include an Archon with a Clone Field and Bloodbride bodyguard.

Long story short, I was running a number of hypothetical battles and came across the Archon w/ Bloodbrides vs. Crowe or Brotherhood Champion. And then came the question... Could a clone from a clone field be used to negate Heroic Sacrifice? Heroic Sacrifice denies all saves, but Clone Field is not a save. It simply up and negates an attack that has hit the Archon. On the other hand, it says that it negates it before the roll to wound. There is no roll to wound with Heroic Sacrifice, meaning that there's no real place for the Clone Field to be used. I'm up in the air as to whether or not this would work, I can think up good arguments for both sides but in the end it's not my opinion that matters. I'd love to hear that Clone Field can be used this way, but I'm not going to break the rules to do it.

If the Clonefield negates d3 hits against the bearer, then yes, I think it can stop the Heroic Sacrifice.

*Archon runs the Brotherhood champ through with his huskblade*
*The champ roars with his last breath and stabs the Archon* "For the Emperor!"
*Archon fads out and appears two passes to the left* "Psych!"

Tzeentchling9 wrote:If the Clonefield negates d3 hits against the bearer, then yes, I think it can stop the Heroic Sacrifice.

*Archon runs the Brotherhood champ through with his huskblade*
*The champ roars with his last breath and stabs the Archon* "For the Emperor!"
*Archon fads out and appears two passes to the left* "Psych!"

Fluff and real world situations rarely can be accurately presented by the rules.

I would say it works.

Expect the GK player to disagree at high decibels though

I would tend to say that a clone field would not protect against heroic sacrifice as it's not really an attack. It's simply a psychic power that has a roll to hit portion similar to close combat.

I don't feel it works either, it states you use it right before they roll to wound. Which Heroic Sacrifice does not do IIRC

You assign to negate a number of d3 attacks that have hit. Then the to wound rolls are made and you can't go back on your decision. If this heroic sacrifice hits, then you can negate it.

Excpet you do it "just before" the to wound roll - there will never BE a to wound roll, meaning you never have permission to assign it.

Silly RAW, i imagine it will be changed...

I would say yes, because the heroic sacrifice stills falls under the criteria to be blocked by clonefield. According to you description of the rules for Clonefield.

I'll go ahead and quote the two relevant sections from the codices for reference.

Heroic Sacrifice: "... If the psychic test is successful, the brotherhood champion immediately makes a single attack... If this attack hits, both models are removed with no saves of any kind allowed."

Clone Field: "...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

I'm still not sure whether or not it would work, because of the roll to wound in the Clone Field description. It's the one thing that doesn't fit, seeing as there is no roll to wound. Other than that, the way it's worded, because Heroic Sacrifice is described as an attack (with a psychic test prerequisite) if there was a roll to wound, it would be nullified with Clone Field, no questions ask. Simply put, Clone Field is not a save.

Edit for spelling.

It does not work, Simply because you are removed before you would use Clone field.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psychic Test, Roll to hit& Removed or Roll to hit & whiff, (here's where the wound roll is, if it needed one)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Excpet you do it "just before" the to wound roll - there will never BE a to wound roll, meaning you never have permission to assign it.

Silly RAW, i imagine it will be changed...

Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree based on RAW.

If you got to choose which attacks to nullify "immediately after successful rolls to hit" rather than "just before the to wound roll" (which is the same thing in a normal assault sequence), then it would work, but as it is, it looks like GK win this one. Although I can count on Zero hands the number of times I've seen a Brotherhood champion in a game, and Crowe tends to either hide in a corner, die horribly to lances/blasters/splinters, or be too busy casting cleansing flame to use his Heroic Sacrifice.

With those specific wordings I agree with Jamesdean, you never have permission to use the clone field to negate Heroic Sacrifice because there will never be a to wound roll made.

From how the rules on these are written, it seems like you would be removed as soon as the hit lands. As soon as the roll to hit is successful, both models are removed. Therefore you never get past that to the "after hit, before wound roll" point.

I do not think it is as clear as people are making it out to be. To imply that because there is no wound roll step it does not work is incorrect. It will still work versus rending hits which have no to wound roll. It is a attack that requires a hit roll. It can be negated by clone field.

Sorry, what are you talking about?
Rending is on the to-wound roll. You're getting confused with 4th.

Your argument is incorrect, as you cannot fulfil the condition required to negate the hit.

If it negates hits what's the issue. It's not negating wound rolls..

Because you are only allowed to make the hit JUST BEFORE you roll the to wound.

By which point your model has already been removed.

blaktoof wrote:If it negates hits what's the issue. It's not negating wound rolls..

Here's your Issue

Bad Mamma Jamma Grey Knight (BMJGK) successfully casts heroic sacrifice
BMJGK now Hits your Archon, Archon is removed from Play here. As there is no Str no roll to wound is made, and beings you need to roll to wound to make Clones ...

To those saying that the clone would not work - apply your same logic to cleansing flame. If you do then you should also argue that you can't cast cleansing flame if you're locked in combat since you test for it 'after assault moves have been made'. As you've not made any assault moves, you wouldn't be able to cast it right? Well, nobody plays it that way.

I think that with the clone rule, it's been designed to prevent players exploiting some kind of game mechanic. However, since you roll to hit, then I believe that you should be able to use the clone against Heroic Sacrifice. Fluff wise it would make sense that the clone doesn't work but when does that ever matter. I'm a gk player and would prefer the clone not to work but to argue it doesn't based on a technicality when there's two very legitimate ways to interpret it seems a little WAAC to me.

ColdSadHungry wrote:To those saying that the clone would not work - apply your same logic to cleansing flame. If you do then you should also argue that you can't cast cleansing flame if you're locked in combat since you test for it 'after assault moves have been made'. As you've not made any assault moves, you wouldn't be able to cast it right? Well, nobody plays it that way.

The "after assault moves have been made" applies to when in the assault phase to test for it. Just because there's no movement in your combat doesn't mean there's no assault move part of the assault phase.

Heroic Sacrifice wins over Clone Field imo.

Dok wrote:From how the rules on these are written, it seems like you would be removed as soon as the hit lands. As soon as the roll to hit is successful, both models are removed. Therefore you never get past that to the "after hit, before wound roll" point.

I wholeheartedly agree on this. "Just before you roll to wound" would be chronologically after "On a successful hit", so the Archon would be gone before he can use clone fields by RAW.

Just to throw in more stupid RAW, nothing says that the single attack doesn't wound or penetrates armor. The attack is the same as a regular attack made by the champion, with an additional remove trigger, so it would still roll to wound and possibly cause a wound/penetrate a vehicle. However, this probably only ever matters against super-heavies and gargantuan creatures, as any other model would be gone anyway.

The bearer of the clone field rolls his D3 at the start of the round of combat, though, before Heroic Sacrifice. You simply decide which hits will be nullified before you start allocating wounds. The ability to nullify hits has actually already been granted before you get to the stage of choosing which ones. I believe the clone field should work against Heroic Sacrifice as per the rules.

ColdSadHungry wrote:The bearer of the clone field rolls his D3 at the start of the round of combat, though, before Heroic Sacrifice. You simply decide which hits will be nullified before you start allocating wounds. The ability to nullify hits has actually already been granted before you get to the stage of choosing which ones. I believe the clone field should work against Heroic Sacrifice as per the rules.

You only decide WHICH hits to nullify however AFTER the attack has hit, which is AFTER you are removed.

You have failed to address the key bit of timing, which renders your argument null

I don't think you can use heroic sacrifice on gargantuan creatures. They have a rule that only psychic powers with a str value can hurt them I believe...

the clones exist before you roll to hit, since they are there at the start of combat.

there is no reason you cannot allocate a hit to a clone. The wording is that hits can be completely nullified before the roll to wound. Roll to wound is a step in the assault phase. That is only in there to prevent a clone field player from negating hits after the roll to wound has been made, there is no rule saying the weapons have to go to the to wound roll step, in fact by RAW you are not allowed to go to the to wound roll step before you negate a hit.

There is nothing in the clone field ruling saying you are required to go to the to wound roll step, or hits that are nullified must have a to wound roll.

A more interesting argument is that the heroic sacrifice attack does not happen during normal assault routine ie assault moves/pile in. roll to hit/ roll to wound/ resolve.

its a special attack that happens if the model would be removed and actually still has an unused power for the turn to try to use. As such it happens long after that assault phases normal to hit and to wound sequence. That said there is no to wound roll left in the assault phase at all making anyone stating that point completely irrelevant in this topic.

This then begs the question could you save one of the hits from the clone field through the normal assault sequence until the end and use it against a hit after normal assault attacks but during the same assault phase before the assault phase has ended.

blaktoof wrote:the clones exist before you roll to hit, since they are there at the start of combat.

there is no reason you cannot allocate a hit to a clone. The wording is that hits can be completely nullified before the roll to wound. Roll to wound is a step in the assault phase. That is only in there to prevent a clone field player from negating hits after the roll to wound has been made, there is no rule saying the weapons have to go to the to wound roll step, in fact by RAW you are not allowed to go to the to wound roll step before you negate a hit.

The clones exist. You allocate hits to them before rolling to wound. After a hit is determined, the model is removed. You haven't had the chance to allocate the hit to a clone yet, because you are not at the roll to wound step.
That's my understanding of it.

Dok wrote:I don't think you can use heroic sacrifice on gargantuan creatures. They have a rule that only psychic powers with a str value can hurt them I believe...

You can use any psychic ability on a gargantuan creature. It just won't do anything unless it has a strength value.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:the clones exist before you roll to hit, since they are there at the start of combat.

there is no reason you cannot allocate a hit to a clone. The wording is that hits can be completely nullified before the roll to wound. Roll to wound is a step in the assault phase. That is only in there to prevent a clone field player from negating hits after the roll to wound has been made, there is no rule saying the weapons have to go to the to wound roll step, in fact by RAW you are not allowed to go to the to wound roll step before you negate a hit.

The clones exist. You allocate hits to them before rolling to wound. After a hit is determined, the model is removed. You haven't had the chance to allocate the hit to a clone yet, because you are not at the roll to wound step.
That's my understanding of it.

You don't allocate hits to a clone during the to wound step or at the start of the to wound step. you allocate hits before rolling to wound. There is no requirement to be at the to wound step, only a requirement to use a clone field to completely nullify any hit before rolling wounds. IE you cannot wait to roll to see what hits wound before negating a hit, hits are negated before you go to the wound step.

It says "just before you roll to wound". That's an exact point of time.