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Akroma06 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

After a successful hit...you mean right before the to wound phase? Those are the same thing. Therefore I have the ability to negate the hit, and if there is no hit then the power cannot affect me.

NO, they are not the same thing.

Stop ignoring the phrase "just before", as it smacks of a poor argument. "Just before" tells you that, the very last thing you do before rolling to wound is decide what hits to negate. After rolling to hit you remove the model. This is BEFORE you decide what hit to negate - because, and I repeat, "just before" must happen after "before", otherwise you are stating that the word "just" means nothing.

So, just after the to-hit, you are removed. this is BEFORE you get to "just before" the to-wound step, therefore you do not get the chance to ignore the hit.

Arguing the word just is arguing not even RAI but english as intended.

If you go to the wound step you are at the wound step, not before it. You cannot go to the wound step to negate a hit with clone field, it does not say at the start of the wounds step before you roll for rounds.

it says just before you roll for wounds. there is no rule saying to go to the wound step, consider wounds, or be at the wound step but not rolling.

Negating hits after the to hit rolls during the to hit step falls under the time frame of just before.

blaktoof wrote:If you go to the wound step you are at the wound step, not before it.

When do you roll to wound? During the wound step. When is the hit determined to be successful or not? During the to-hit step. Notice how they are different steps so happen at different times?

yep,

thats why if you leave the to hit step without negating clone field hits you have broken the rules because rolling to wound is the first thing you do during the rolling to wound step. as per the 5th edition rulebook immediately after rolling to hit is rolling to wound p.38 main rulebook.

The first line of the section is "Rolling to wound"

So what happens in the main book just before rolling to wound? Oh thats rolling to hit.

Literally whats happens before the first instance of "Rolling to Wound" Is the to hit chart, so just before rolling to wound is literally the result of the die roll from the to hit chart being negated by clone field.

therefore RAW the clone field hits are negated just before Rolling to wound, which is the to hit step.

Clone field negates hits after rolling to hit during the assault phase, not anytime during the rolling to wound step. RAW.

I concur with blacktoof. Its but raw, as the step just before roll to wound, is the roll to hit. But i can also see why there is.confusion about it. Hopefully gw makes a faq soon.

So I broke out my Codex to make sure I understood what I was quoting, and it turns out I was wrong about the power.

p.26 GK Codex:

This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase.

So the whole to-hit/to-wound order doesn't matter. You allocate a killing wound to Crowe, fail a save, make your psychic test, make your to-hit, and both models go away. Clone Field doesn't matter because it doesn't happen in the normal Assault step order.

It's not a normal to-hit. It just happens.

Blaktoof - so you are arguing there is no "just before" the to-wound, as that is the to-hit?

Brilliant, clone field never works, ever.

Oh right, what you're saying isnt true. So, clone field works, but not against HS.

no I am stating that according to the main rule book "just before rolling to wound" is the result of the hit table during the to hit step.

Therefore RAW just before roilling to wound is the result of rolling to hit, so you do not need to worry about the wound step for selecting a hit to completely nullify with clone field because it is not a requirement RAW to go to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:So I broke out my Codex to make sure I understood what I was quoting, and it turns out I was wrong about the power.

p.26 GK Codex:

This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase.

So the whole to-hit/to-wound order doesn't matter. You allocate a killing wound to Crowe, fail a save, make your psychic test, make your to-hit, and both models go away. Clone Field doesn't matter because it doesn't happen in the normal Assault step order.

It's not a normal to-hit. It just happens.

Depending on the dynamics of the assault a brotherhood champion could die with both sides still having attacks left, and a model with a clone field still having clones to allocate hits towards. As the heroic sacrifice rule happens when the model dies at a certain initiative step it is possible for a model with a clone field to still have clones left during that assault phase.

Here is the way I look at this. You have a normal sequence of A then B, rolling to hit and rolling to wound. You then add in X and Y, which is heroic sacrifice and clones.

Heroic sacrifice (x) says it takes place after hitting (A). Clones (Y) take place just before wounding (B).

So the order would be

A-X-Y-B

or hit, sacrifice, clone, wound.

So sacrifice takes effect before clones would work.

blaktoof wrote:Depending on the dynamics of the assault a brotherhood champion could die with both sides still having attacks left, and a model with a clone field still having clones to allocate hits towards. As the heroic sacrifice rule happens when the model dies at a certain initiative step it is possible for a model with a clone field to still have clones left during that assault phase.

Yes, that is possible. But the power is not used in a normal initiative order.

To hit step:
Roll to hits. Determine success.
To wound step:
Allocate Clone Field stuff.
Roll to wound.
Make saves
Crowe dies - psychic test is rolled, to-hit is rolled, models are removed.

There's no "to wound" step during the psychic test. Clone field can't help you.

Clone field does not negate wounds I t negates hits. Char 1 has 5 attacks 2 with a power fist. Clone field generates 2 clones. The character makes his opposed WS checks to hit the archon, getting 1 fist hit and 2 others. The archon selects the fist and let's the other attacks go through. THEN we progress to the wound stage etc. Clone field negates d3 HITS. Therefore, if he has clones left, as soon as the "hit" roll is made for HS you can negate it. Especially since HS requires a close combat to hit roll, and clone fields negate close combat hits. Pretty clear IMHO. And no - I'm not getting into a silly magic the gathering "stack" style argument. It's not that complicated and not worth the preverbal breath.

Clone field negates hits. Heroic sacrifice is a hit followed by effect. Since it's effect follows the hit, and the clone field interrupts and negates hits the clone field will stop it. ( providing you stl have clones left)

DarthSpader wrote:Clone field negates hits. Heroic sacrifice is a hit followed by effect. Since it's effect follows the hit, and the clone field interrupts and negates hits the clone field will stop it. ( providing you stl have clones left)

Clone Field negates hits allocated *before* the wound step. Heroic Sacrifice is tested for, and rolls to hit, after armor saves have already been rolled - long after Clone Field gets to negate the hit. There is no rolling to wound after HS happens - just the single to-hit roll, and then models are removed. HS does not give permission for a roll to wound, therefore you cannot have something happen that happens "just before" rolling to wound.

And it's funny how you refuse to get into the MTG style stack argument, but you choose words like interrupt to try and support your argument.

DarthSpader wrote: I'm not getting into a silly magic the gathering "stack" style argument. It's not that complicated and not worth the preverbal breath.

Clone field negates hits. Heroic sacrifice is a hit followed by effect. Since it's effect follows the hit, and the clone field interrupts and negates hits the clone field will stop it. ( providing you stl have clones left)

It's not a stack thing, its an order of operation thing. If you put the clones prior to sacrifice, they are no longer just before the to wound roll. If we know that sacrifice is after hitting, and clones are just before wounding, the order would be sacrifice then clones. Any other order stops clones from being JUST before wounding.

First off there is no MTG stack. And in a wierd twist of fate HS could theoretically wound. Granted it doesn't tell you to roll for a wound but it does say make an attack. The BRB tells you that after rolling to hit you roll to wound. HS does not tell you to NOT do this it says that the target that was hit is removed along with the brotherhood champ, so if you have some special rule that says you can't be removed via special rules/effects then you could take a wound. Therefore there is a to wound roll it just normally never happens.
The HS attack would hit, the clone field would attempt to negate the hit. HS would attempt to remove the hit character (which it can't since the hit was removed). Under a very bizzare and hypothetical possibility it would then roll to wound. So therefore I removed the hit before the roll to wound which occurs at the same time as the remove the hit charachter from play.

Not gonna go into a long post but I would play it that Sacrifice does not roll to wound and does not allow saves of any kind, therefor I would say clone field does nothing against it.

Akroma06 wrote:First off there is no MTG stack.

correct

And in a wierd twist of fate HS could theoretically wound.

No, it can't. It doesn't have a str value, it's not a normal attack - it's a to hit roll.

And you're still ignoring the fact that HS happens *after* wounds have already been saved, which is long after Clone Field could have negated anything, let alone a psychic power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
You don't allocate hits to a clone during the to wound step or at the start of the to wound step. you allocate hits before rolling to wound.

JUST before rolling to wound. As in, a very well defined step that you NEVER reach when HS is activated.

blaktoof wrote: There is no requirement to be at the to wound step, only a requirement to use a clone field to completely nullify any hit before rolling wounds. IE you cannot wait to roll to see what hits wound before negating a hit, hits are negated before you go to the wound step.

Yet you are required to be able to get to the To-Wound step, because you can ONLY negate hits "just before" the to-wound step

HS never gets to the to-wound step. Your model is removed as soon as the attack hits.

Just playing devils advocate here, but if you get hit only once, then you can never use a close field.
Wording of Clone Field: The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made

If he nullifies the only hit, then you never roll to wound. If you never roll to wound, then you never get to the "just before the roll to wound is made phase.

Rolling to wound is not a requirement to use the clone field. You just must decide to use it before the roll to wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:First off there is no MTG stack.

correct

And in a wierd twist of fate HS could theoretically wound.

No, it can't. It doesn't have a str value, it's not a normal attack - it's a to hit roll.

And you're still ignoring the fact that HS happens *after* wounds have already been saved, which is long after Clone Field could have negated anything, let alone a psychic power.

Actually I'm not. it happens fter the wounds delt by the archon or whoever killed the champ. The champ then gets to hit with HS. So then after that is when I would use a clone to ignore the hit. Which would be after the champ swings and before the aforementioned possible wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jbunny wrote:
Just playing devils advocate here, but if you get hit only once, then you can never use a close field.
Wording of Clone Field: The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made

If he nullifies the only hit, then you never roll to wound. If you never roll to wound, then you never get to the "just before the roll to wound is made phase.

Rolling to wound is not a requirement to use the clone field. You just must decide to use it before the roll to wound.

Fully agree

Akroma06 wrote:Actually I'm not. it happens fter the wounds delt by the archon or whoever killed the champ. The champ then gets to hit with HS. So then after that is when I would use a clone to ignore the hit. Which would be after the champ swings and before the aforementioned possible wound.

You're assuming there's a wound step for that power - the power describes no such thing, so you don't have permission to do anything in the wound step. Guess what happens in the wound step?

Rolling to wound is not a requirement to use the clone field. You just must decide to use it before the roll to wound.

Fully agree

You must decide to use it *just* before the roll to wound. That means you've gone from page 37 to page 38 in the rulebook. Does than mean you might negate the hit that allowed you to get to the wound step? Sure... paradoxes happen when rules are written like this.

HS rolls after casualties are removed. Since HS only gives permission for a to-hit roll, and does not give permission to roll to wound (in any scenario, no matter what you try and make up) you never get to any kind of to wound step. HS has nothing to do with a normal assault phase, which is what CF relates to.

I'm not sure how that's confusing. CF states "just before the roll to wound". HS doesn't allow a wound step, and in fact removes the model immediately after a successful hit.

HS is a special attack, but as an attack it is bound by all rules in the BRB. It is just not normally going to happen in everyday circumstances. HS doesn't specifically say there isn't. Since there is nothing saying it doesn't AND it is an attack then there is one. Therefore there would be a spot for the clone field to ignore the hit. No hit=No removed from play charachter.

No, there is no roll "to wound" because there is no S value nor is there an alternative mechanism given in its place. Meaning you cannot perform any action contingent no there being a wound, like any action which MUST HAPPEN "just before" you roll to wound

HS is a psychic power and is used as described. It does not have a Str value, it does not roll to wound, and you do not get saves against it.

At no time, special rule against being removed from the table or not, will you EVER roll to wound with HS. It is a psychic power with a descriptipn on how to use it.

Rig has it locked down.

So by this logic, if an attack did not require a roll to wound, which is to say wounded automatically, a clone field would be likewise helpless?

Wounded automatically does not mean a to wound roll does not take place. It just means that regardless of the result a wound is caused.

Any use of the clone against a single hit means there is no to-wound roll, right?

How does that help?

The clone field negates hits. HS requires one....and rolls to hit.... So clone field can negate it. Same as a psychic hood could negate the power in the first place.

Since we have no rules saying when that happens just before, or just after or halfway between or immediately following etc, all we have is generic phases, and since both abilities kick in after the hit roll but before normal wound rolls, i will argue they occupy the same phase. As such if one cancels the other directly do so, if not resolve them both. HS does not directly state "prevents war gear" etc from working. The clone field however DOES negate all results from a CC hit. Power fist, ID, power wep, mundane, force weapon etc.

HC does not take effect outside init orders, it doesnt have anything special other then making an attack when Otherwise wouldn't be able to. (while being removed as casualty) so I stand by my position. Clone fields work on HS

If you look at it an order of operations way then the hit has to happen before the clone field can be used however, the effect of heroic strike happens immediately after the hit or possibly even concurrently with the successful roll to hit.

Another way to say it is a clone field requires a hit before it can be used, thus by the time you would be given permission to use the field the model has already been hit and thus been removed as the effect of Heroic Sacrifice happens at the instant the roll to hit is successful.

Tracer Bullet wrote:Heroic Sacrifice happens at the instant the roll to hit is successful.

This is not what is states.

Clone Field: "...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

I'm inclined to argue that even though no wound roll is made, it does not stop the Clone Field from nullifying the hit. It's a normal hit, without a wound roll. Also, it does say just before the roll is made, not when the roll is made.


Normal combat goes something like this.

Determine Attacks--->Determine Targets--->Roll to Hit--->Roll to Wound

The period of time in between the hits and the wounds is when Clone Field applies. Though no wound roll is made, the time before this action is decided takes place (I.E. there is still time before the wound roll is made, except that there is no roll to wound.) This doesn't negate the fact that there is a period of time where wounds WOULD be rolled, if there were any.

Please note that this attack is not done in normal combat. In this Variant there is Psychic Test; Roll to hit; Remove from play