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Personally I would say that you do get the clone field. Yes it is before a roll to wound which is right after the roll to hit. So psycic power is cast, the champ hits, the archon's clone field (which has already been rolled and still has atleast one clone left) would then ignore the hit. If the attack had a to wound roll it would be made here, but it doesn't and the hit was negated. That seems to make perfect RAW sense. The effect of the power would take place at the same time as the hit being ignored. There is no extra step in there for anyone to say well this happens first. The hit is ignored so the power can't work.

Heroic Sacrifice removes the model after a successful to hit roll.
Clone Field negates wounds just before you roll to wound.

Successful to hit roll is before "just before you roll to wound".

If someone else goes on the same I as Crowe, you roll all to hits, then all wounds. So I roll Crowe, hit, you're removed, I then roll the other to hits, then wounds, etc.

Heroic Sacrifice is not influenced by initiative whatsoever, other than potentially killing a model that has yet to strike.

blaktoof wrote:
You don't allocate hits to a clone during the to wound step or at the start of the to wound step. you allocate hits before rolling to wound.

JUST before rolling to wound. As in, a very well defined step that you NEVER reach when HS is activated.

blaktoof wrote: There is no requirement to be at the to wound step, only a requirement to use a clone field to completely nullify any hit before rolling wounds. IE you cannot wait to roll to see what hits wound before negating a hit, hits are negated before you go to the wound step.

Yet you are required to be able to get to the To-Wound step, because you can ONLY negate hits "just before" the to-wound step

HS never gets to the to-wound step. Your model is removed as soon as the attack hits.

You hit, then you roll to wound. Unless I drastically missed something there. There is no other space they would both happen at the same time. The attack would hit and then it would be ignored (this is after the hit and before the to wound roll).

If you'd strictly be following the BRB, you must() reference the strength vs toughness table before rolling to wound. At that time the Archon dies

Jidmah wrote:If you'd strictly be following the BRB, you must() reference the strength vs toughness table before rolling to wound. At that time the Archon dies

Although it is still before the to wound roll is made. RAW says I can ignore the hit before the to wound roll is made. So I do that before referencing the chart. Which is still before the wound to roll is made.

Akroma06 wrote:You hit, then you roll to wound. Unless I drastically missed something there. There is no other space they would both happen at the same time. The attack would hit and then it would be ignored (this is after the hit and before the to wound roll).

No, they do not happen both at the same time. Same as Scouts can happen just before the game starts, even though there isnt a "step" for it to occur in.

As soon as the attack hits, the model is removed. Before you roll to wound, Clone field activates

THis means 2 things


1) there are two separate steps, with one occuring simultaneously with the hit occuring, the other occuring after this point
2) You NEVER reach the to-wound step, therefre you CANNOT take any action which relies on this - you cannot do something "just before" to-wound, as you are never going to "to-wound"

That gives 2 reasons why it doesnt work, you must refute both

blaktoof wrote:
A more interesting argument is that the heroic sacrifice attack does not happen during normal assault routine ie assault moves/pile in. roll to hit/ roll to wound/ resolve.

its a special attack that happens if the model would be removed and actually still has an unused power for the turn to try to use. As such it happens long after that assault phases normal to hit and to wound sequence. That said there is no to wound roll left in the assault phase at all making anyone stating that point completely irrelevant in this topic.

This then begs the question could you save one of the hits from the clone field through the normal assault sequence until the end and use it against a hit after normal assault attacks but during the same assault phase before the assault phase has ended.

I've change my mind. Just re-read the entry and since heroic sacrifice takes place after 'normal' combat, then any time that Heroic Sacrifice is used, we will already be PAST the wound allocation phase anyway. The Clone Field cannot be used against Heroic Sacrifice.

I read the Clone field passage as indicating that you cannot allocate successful wounding hits to clones, just hits. The sentence about the "before wound rolls" is just to clarify this to alleviate any wound allocation shenanigans.

The clone field negates successful hits, not wounds per its own rules, so it should still work against the the heroic sacrifices, which as to roll to hit.

I do not see the "moment in time" that you are seeing, as the sentence for the clone field can be read so that as to make such a distinction not necessary.

Based on the quoted rules (dont have my books at work):

Roll to hit.
-if hit, remove model
-Negate with Clone Field
Roll to wound.

Just like the number 2 comes before 3 if I describe them thusly:
If you type 1, type 2.
Just before you type 4, type 3.

The clone field negates succesful hits JUST BEFORE you roll to wound.

Again, stop stating rules are stating something other than the clear, simple English they are: JUST BEFORE you roll to wound, perform X

I am never, ever going to roll to wound, therefore you cannot perform X.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:You hit, then you roll to wound. Unless I drastically missed something there. There is no other space they would both happen at the same time. The attack would hit and then it would be ignored (this is after the hit and before the to wound roll).

No, they do not happen both at the same time. Same as Scouts can happen just before the game starts, even though there isnt a "step" for it to occur in.

As soon as the attack hits, the model is removed. Before you roll to wound, Clone field activates

THis means 2 things


1) there are two separate steps, with one occuring simultaneously with the hit occuring, the other occuring after this point
2) You NEVER reach the to-wound step, therefre you CANNOT take any action which relies on this - you cannot do something "just before" to-wound, as you are never going to "to-wound"

That gives 2 reasons why it doesnt work, you must refute both

Must...MUST! The only thing I must do is pay taxes and die so don't tell me I must do anything.

Refute your reasons? Hmm well scouts DOES have a time in which they can move it is called scout moves so that isn't that great of an example. Actually the first one is easy. The brotherhood champs power does not activate simultaniously as hitting. Otherwise it would activate with or without him hitting since at time index "A" the champion needs to roll to hit and the thing he hits is removed, but he hasn't hit yet. Therefore they cannont both happen simultaneously since one is dependent on the other happening. Therefore they would both happen after I have been hit and before any wounds are made.

As for number 2. Simply because I don't reach the to-wound step does not mean that I cannot take an action based on it. The power is still an attack. An attack will still deal damage normally however this attack has something else hapen also (remove from game). Should this attack say hit a gargantuan creature. It would still have the ability to do damage with a to wound roll. Therefore there is a to wound roll it happens after I have been hit. So once again inbetween the to hit roll and the to wound roll lie where this powers effect would happen and when I get to the ignore the hit. If there is no hit then I am not removed.

2 things refuted.

Akroma06 wrote:As for number 2. Simply because I don't reach the to-wound step does not mean that I cannot take an action based on it. The power is still an attack. An attack will still deal damage normally however this attack has something else hapen also (remove from game). Should this attack say hit a gargantuan creature. It would still have the ability to do damage with a to wound roll. Therefore there is a to wound roll it happens after I have been hit. So once again inbetween the to hit roll and the to wound roll lie where this powers effect would happen and when I get to the ignore the hit. If there is no hit then I am not removed.

Actually, you're wrong. To take an action based on the to-wound step, you have to get to the to-wound step. It is still an attack, but it does not roll to wound. It would not do damage to a gargantuan creature (as there is no Str on the power). There is a to hit, you're removed, then you'd get to ignore it if you were still there.

1) No, that does nto refute it. "just" before defines a VERY precise time: the final thing you do before you roll to wound. Same as Scouts - they dont have a phase, they happen "just before". You apparently didnt get the link there.

Just after succesfully rolling to hit is not the same as just before rolling to wound.

Counter refuted


2) How are you performing an action "just before" an aciton you are never going to perform? You cannot, logically, do so.

Counter refuted.

1) Scout moves are defined as to when they happen. I counter your refute with a question. What else occurs that is inbetween being hit and rolling to wound? It all occurs at the same time.

2) Never is a strong word nos a very strong word. You cannot say that something will never happen. It is the same as saying always.

As for rigeld. Ok I know about the whole gargantuan creature thing my point was that there are instances when the attack does not remove the target. I am taking an action before the to wound step so I have to get there? If that is the case then if I ignore all normal attacks with a clone field then I couldn't have done so since we did not get to the to wound step?

Akroma06 wrote:As for rigeld. Ok I know about the whole gargantuan creature thing my point was that there are instances when the attack does not remove the target. I am taking an action before the to wound step so I have to get there? If that is the case then if I ignore all normal attacks with a clone field then I couldn't have done so since we did not get to the to wound step?

Yes there are instances when it fails to remove the target after it hits. Not that it matters much - HS just doesn't do anything. It doesn't roll to wound, it just does nothing.

No, You roll to-hits. You hit. Model is removed.
Next is to-wound. Before you try and wound, you negate hits with the Clone Field. That model ceased to exist, so you can't do that now.

Something that happens with respect to to-hit happens before something that happens with respect to to-wound. Just like to-hit happens before to-wound.

roll to hit//roll to wound//roll saves

clone field

BEFORE roll to wound. - if something automatically wounded would it still work? I think so. the 'just before' isn't a requirement, its a statement of the timing. IE before rolls to wound (if any) AFTER rolls to hit.

1) Yes, Scout moves are well defined - they occur "just before" starting the game. Hmmm, that "just before" wording seems awfully familiar....

It also clearly does not happen "all at the same time", that is demonstrably false. You needed to read this thread more carefully - Jidmah gave just one more example of an event that happens in between - consulting the to-wound chart. We now have 3 in total - HS activating, Clone field, and consulting the chart. We know that the VERY LAST THING you do before rolling to wound, as denoted by "just before", is you activate clonefield. This is after consulting the wound chart, and after HS activates

You have yet to construct an argument that acts to refute mine, as you ignore rules and plain make stuff up. Dont.

2) I can in this instance. Again, you fail at making an actual argument.

HS will result in there never being a roll to wound with that attack. Ever. As in, never. Ever. With cherries on top.

This is the part that bothers me, so I know I am missing something.

If you succeed in the clone field activation there is not a to-wound roll either, right?

Which means the activation is illegal?

Editing to add:
Or is it just that you roll, and ignore it, but you still roll--because that does not seem to be the case?
I think I get the rules, just not the way people are reading them.

You activate it at the begining of the assault phase, by rolling a D3. You know have d3 clones. Any hits that are landed against the wearer MAY be removed as a clone is hit instead. This occurs before the to wound roll, but after the to hit roll. I see nos' point on that he doesn't roll to wound (I think double check with him). Several others are arguing that it happens immeditely. My point is that why can I not ignore the hit immediately as there is nothing inbetween the to hit and to wound.

Yeah check the chart w/e. It is checked just before rolling to wound no? Then they occur together and I ignore the hit and thus the effect.

kirsanth wrote:If you succeed in the clone field activation there is not a to-wound roll either, right?

As I understand it the clone field activation happens before the to-hits, but the allocation/negation of hits happens before the to-wound roll.
So it gets activated, but ends up not doing anything because the model ceases to exist.
I don't have my books with me, but that's how I read the quoted rules and remember them.

Jidmah wrote:

Dok wrote:I don't think you can use heroic sacrifice on gargantuan creatures. They have a rule that only psychic powers with a str value can hurt them I believe...

You can use any psychic ability on a gargantuan creature. It just won't do anything unless it has a strength value.

Ah, ok. I have never played apoc rules. I knew it was something like that though. Cheers!

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If you succeed in the clone field activation there is not a to-wound roll either, right?

As I understand it the clone field activation happens before the to-hits, but the allocation/negation of hits happens before the to-wound roll.
So it gets activated, but ends up not doing anything because the model ceases to exist.I don't have my books with me, but that's how I read the quoted rules and remember them.

Seriously? You roll at the start of the phase. Just said it. This adds nothing to the discussion your just restating your point in a very final there is no other interpritation way. The champion hits (after passing test) and after that the DE charachter is removed. However since this would be before the normal to wound step I can ignore the hit (assuming I have any clones left) and thus the effect.

rigeld2 wrote:I don't have my books with me, but that's how I read the quoted rules and remember them.

I have the books, and am reading the rules.
The hit is nullified after to-hit, before to-wound.
If there is no to-wound, folks say there is no ability to use the clone field.
If the clone field is used, there is no to-wound.

What am I missing?

Akroma06 wrote:This adds nothing to the discussion your just restating your point in a very final there is no other interpritation way.

I was answering a post, not directing anything to you with that statement.

The champion hits (after passing test) and after that the DE charachter is removed. However since this would be before the normal to wound step I can ignore the hit (assuming I have any clones left) and thus the effect.

And how is that not "just restating your point in a very final there is no other interpritation [sic] way"?

It's not before the wound step. It's after a successful hit. You don't have to leave the to-hit step before you remove the model - it's gone before you get to "just before" the to-wound step. If someone else goes on Crowe's init, they get to roll to-hit as well, but your model is still gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:If there is no to-wound, folks say there is no ability to use the clone field.
If the clone field is used, there is no to-wound.

What am I missing?

It's not that there is no to-wound (in this case, there isn't, but that doesn't matter).
It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

So does clone field, which is why I am confused.

Clone field nullifies the hit--there will not be a to-wound roll made when it is used.

Which apparently makes its use illegal but only when it is used.

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

After a successful hit...you mean right before the to wound phase? Those are the same thing. Therefore I have the ability to negate the hit, and if there is no hit then the power cannot affect me.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

So does clone field, which is why I am confused.

Clone field nullifies the hit--there will not be a to-wound roll made when it is used.

Which apparently makes its use illegal but only when it is used.

Clone Field says "just before" the to-wound step. HS removes after a successful hit in the to-hit step. Since you don't leave the to-hit step until after Crowe has already removed himself and his target, you don't ever get to "just before" the to-wound step.

After a successful hit...you mean right before the to wound phase? Those are the same thing. Therefore I have the ability to negate the hit, and if there is no hit then the power cannot affect me.

No. The to-hit step and to-wound step are distinctly different. You're removed on a successful to-hit roll. You don't move to the to-wound step - you're already removed by the time you would.

You don't roll to-hit for one person on the init step, then to-wound, then repeat for everyone on that init step - you roll to-hits for everyone, then you roll to-wounds for everyone. By your assertion, I'd roll to-hit with Crowe, then you'd negate, then anyone else on his I would roll to-hit.

rigeld2 wrote:No. The to-hit step and to-wound step are distinctly different.

And clone field negates successful to-hits before the to-wound roll comes in to play. Exactly like the stuff that says to-wound is nullified.

Yet saying that a to-wound is nullified does not mean that clone field cannot apply.