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This whole thread is confusing.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:if I am not mistaken heroic sacrifice takes place after the combat is resolved

This is the issue I have seen.
The whole bit about "just before" to-wound is a lark. There is no to-wound roll for an ignored hit that must be ignored before the to-wound roll.

edits for assininity.

And, as pointed out, that is the exact fallacious argument used against FNP. It has no place here.

You get to negate a hit, just before you roll to wound
Prior to tht HS removes your model, leaving you UNABLE to use clone field -youre already dead and gone

Stop ignoring words that are inconvenient.

HS Takes place when the champion is removed as a casualtie at the END OF THAT INIT STEP. not the end of the whole fight. And the fact. Its a psychic power means nothing. It's simply the mechanism that allows the special otherwise nonexistent attack. What. If HS was an innate special ability? What. If it was war gear? It still is all the same thing - a mechanism that allows a special out of sequence attack. (out of sequence because he would not normally be allowed to make an attack at this point)

Its also not a close combat attack, it just requires him to make a "to hit" based on weapon skill - we dont have the equivalent of "Psychic Close Combat Attacks" like we do for PSAs

So, thats 3 issues. You never have a to-wound, you never will have a to-wound, and it isnt a close combat attack

So....it uses an opposed WS check like a close combat attack, and the power itself states that the champion makes an attack.... And it happens during the close combat phase.... But it's NOT a close combat attack?

If it's not a close combat attack then it can't be made during close combat when the champ would be removed (during init steps) so it dose not happen at all and the entire power has to way of working and can never be used. Huzah! For useless powers!

And clone field still stops it. :p

No, ts a psychic power that happens during the close combat phase, like cleansing flame.

You have yet to prove how clone field stops something when the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate it

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, ts a psychic power that happens during the close combat phase, like cleansing flame.

You have yet to prove how clone field stops something when the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate it

I have read all 6 pages, and Nos is correct. Clone field can not stop HS, since " the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate[the hit]"

Unless you can find something that proves clone field can stop it, it can't.

Clone field negates hits just before rolling to wound, by that time the model is removed because of HS saying if you hit the model is removed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, ts a psychic power that happens during the close combat phase, like cleansing flame.

You have yet to prove how clone field stops something when the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate it

Actually the FAQ says cleansing flame is a close combat attack.

But anyway I digress it doesn't work for one reason and one reason only the fact that clone field says "just before the roll to wound" this is the problem cause HS doesn't go past the "rolling to hit" step and since it just says "just before the roll to wound" which unless otherwise stated must happen in the "rolling to wound" step since that is when you roll to wound. Note: clone field would work if it said "after rolling to hit" instead of "just before the roll to wound", since the having to roll before wounds are rolled is already there.

I personally would allow clone field to work against HS in non tournament environments and also ask your opponent how they would do it at the stard of the game so you can get it straightened out before it happens which can ruin a game


And a thing on the side

nosferatu1001 wrote:Its also not a close combat attack, it just requires him to make a "to hit" based on weapon skill

It never actually says what you roll to hit with, so if it is indeed not a close combat attack you can and should use BS and a gun. You also assumed it was a close combat attack while saying it wasn't.

and your ignoring the second part of the clone field rules. clone fields IGNORE THE HIT, plain and simple. the reason its worded "before wounds" is so that you dont wait and see what hits actually wound or not, because then its too late. you negate the hit. if the hit dosent happen, the models not removed because the hit never occured. it should even work against clensing flame if such is a CC attack. clone field negates anything that requires a "hit" roll. this whole "just after hit/just before wound" nonsense has no actual rules ANYWHERE. its a limbo phase that people assume/make up exists.

since there are no rules, honestly they occur pretty much at the same time, so somethings gonna give. and knowing GW when such situations occur roll a die to determine.

im not gonna furthar repeat myself - i outlined the process and the rules in BRB for close combat. i also pointed out that this whole "just before wounds" thing is not anything more then a secondary descriptor, that also includes "because if you roll to wound its too late" normally a hit is rolled just before a wound, and a wound just after a hit. HS does not require a wound, just an effect BASED ON MAKING A SUCSESSFUL HIT. (if you roll to hit and miss guess what???) clone field negates THE HIT....

DarthSpader wrote:and your ignoring the second part of the clone field rules. clone fields IGNORE THE HIT, plain and simple. the reason its worded "before wounds" is so that you dont wait and see what hits actually wound or not, because then its too late. you negate the hit. if the hit dosent happen, the models not removed because the hit never occured. it should even work against clensing flame if such is a CC attack. clone field negates anything that requires a "hit" roll. this whole "just after hit/just before wound" nonsense has no actual rules ANYWHERE. its a limbo phase that people assume/make up exists.

since there are no rules, honestly they occur pretty much at the same time, so somethings gonna give. and knowing GW when such situations occur roll a die to determine.

im not gonna furthar repeat myself - i outlined the process and the rules in BRB for close combat. i also pointed out that this whole "just before wounds" thing is not anything more then a secondary descriptor, that also includes "because if you roll to wound its too late" normally a hit is rolled just before a wound, and a wound just after a hit. HS does not require a wound, just an effect BASED ON MAKING A SUCSESSFUL HIT. (if you roll to hit and miss guess what???) clone field negates THE HIT....

l...

I agree but you have the problem of Just before roll to wound which until GW says otherwise is just before rolling to wound you can't do that until the to wound stage or it would say before going to "rolling to wound" and unfortunately HS resolves in the to hit step and since to hit is before to wound he's gone. On a side note "after rolling to hit" is always before "before rolling to wound".



Clone field could work if it has the right wording (which as i said before is "after rolling to hit") or if HS inflicted an automatic wound causing instant death which cannot be saved against.

Darth - no, we're not ignoring it. Not at all. In fact, I defy you to find a point in which I have said Clone Field doesnt negate hits

What you repeatedly and unerringly ignore, pretending it doesnt matter as if they just wrote a phrase for the hell of it, is that you are only given permission to negate the hit at one, very very very specific point in time. A point in time that is after Heroic Sacrifice has already removed your model

Yes, CF ignores hits. Shame by the time you are given PERMISSION to ignore the hit you're already dead and gone, isnt it.

Also, reported because apparently you cant argue without insults.

I think I'm missing the part of the thread where Darth is insulting anyone, Nos

Darth's points make sense to me, GW could have (and probably should have) worded this as you choose which hit to negate before that hit is rolled to wound.

Imagine this in a movie, the hero's swinging a sword at the villain, who has a clone field. There's 2 holographic representations of the villain, giving 3 potential targets. The hero hits each target once. Note that the villain does not know which hit is on which target, he just chooses to negate a certain dice roll....

Villain negates die roll 1 & 3, which are automatically ignored / nullified etc. This represents the heroes attacks slicing through a hologram / smoke / thin air etc etc.

Attack 2 wounds, representing that the hero made contact with the real villain. The villain can not then decide that he wants to take a clone field save against this hit / wound

Notice the two edits, that removed the insulting line, after i posted?

The argument may make some kind of sense, but its not one based on following the rules written down in plain English, but on ignoring part of the phrase and assuming its essentially filler. It isnt.

kitch102 wrote:I think I'm missing the part of the thread where Darth is insulting anyone, Nos

Yeah i was thinking that too.

Darth's points make sense to me, GW could have (and probably should have) worded this as you choose which hit to negate before that hit is rolled to wound.

But it's not, which is the whole point, due to either GW not thinking of interations between codexes out or in production or not caring. Them having a god book would be nice so then all like abilities are actually alike.

The real issue is going to come down to who want to argue it until the game dies and GW's awful wording of the GK codex in general. Nos is right. Because there is no roll to wound there is no timing for an ability that says before the roll to wound. The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind. In that state a mere illusion is not going to stop him.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind.

According to that logic, all psychic shooting attacks would also get to ignore Spore Cloud, because after all, my psychic mind would not be affected by a cloud of spores obscuring my enemies.

Additionally, wraithlords/guards "do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits" (Eldar codex, pg46). Since holographic clones are not "spirits", does my wraithlord ignore clone field in CC? Pretty sure the answer is NO.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The real issue is going to come down to who want to argue it until the game dies and GW's awful wording of the GK codex in general. Nos is right. Because there is no roll to wound there is no timing for an ability that says before the roll to wound. The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind. In that state a mere illusion is not going to stop him.

Really I always see it as Optimus' heroic "NEVERRR..." uppercut on Megatron from the 1987 animated film

Happyjew wrote:

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind.

According to that logic, all psychic shooting attacks would also get to ignore Spore Cloud, because after all, my psychic mind would not be affected by a cloud of spores obscuring my enemies.

Additionally, wraithlords/guards "do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits" (Eldar codex, pg46). Since holographic clones are not "spirits", does my wraithlord ignore clone field in CC? Pretty sure the answer is NO.

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

curtis wrote:

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

Perhaps. Or perhaps some interpret it "creatively" to lever an advantage.

Darth, throughout your little diatribe, you conveniently left out the very RAW that destroys your argument, "before rolling to wound." Not only does it destroy your argument, but it just makes you appear dishonest in your argument because you are choosing not to present all the facts of the argument.

But to reiterate ALL the facts we can play out both scenarios;

Archon assaults 10 GH with one powerfist.

Archon rolls d3 for clones and gets 3.

Archon attacks at initiative 7, killing 6 and leaving 3 regular GH and one with a powerfist.

GH failed their counter-attack so 3 GH attack back with chainswords for a total of 6 attacks at initiative 4. They hit with 2.

Space Wolves Player: I am going to roll to wound with 2 chainsword attacks.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE 1 OF THOSE CHAINSWORD HITS.

Space Wolves player rolls 1 to wound roll, wounds, and Archon saves.

Space Wolves player rolls 1 powerfist attacks at initiative 1 and hits.

Space Wolves Player: I am going to roll to wound with 1 powerfist attack.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE THAT POWERFIST HIT.

Space Wolves player hangs his head in shame. Dark Eldar player orders pizza for his archon.

Now let us look at the issue at hand. Archon assaults 5 man Strike Squad with attached Brotherhood Champion.

Archon rolls d3 for clones and is on fire getting 3 again.

Archon is in base to base with Brotherhood champion and Strike squad. He splits his 6 attacks evenly at initiative 7; killing the Brotherhood Champion and 3 of the Strike Squad.

The Brotherhood Champion takes and passes his psychic test for Heroic Sacrifice.

He rolls to hit against the Archon and hits.

Grey Knight Player: I successfully hit your archon, remove him from play while I remove my Brotherhood Champion from play.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE THAT HEROIC SACRIFICE HIT.

Grey Knight Player: I don't roll to wound with Heroic Sacrifice, I successfully hit your archon, so remove him from play.

Dark Eldar Player: <emo>

Remaining Strike Squad eat Archon's pizza in memory of Brotherhood Champion.

The above is RAW to the letter. I have not deviated from ANY of the rules as written as far as I can tell. Please anyone that thinks that Clone Field negates Heroic Sacrifice, by all means point out in the example I have given how it works.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

curtis wrote:

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

Perhaps. Or perhaps some interpret it "creatively" to lever an advantage.

No, rules and rule disputes should be both impartial and unbiased as soon as you go into "I feel it should..."s and "this fluff says..."s you're no longer sticking to impartial and unbiased rules and also leads to the (valid) slippery sloop which i quoted. Sometimes I wish GW had comprehensive rules like magic the gathering.

curtis wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

curtis wrote:

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

Perhaps. Or perhaps some interpret it "creatively" to lever an advantage.

No, rules and rule disputes should be both impartial and unbiased as soon as you go into "I feel it should..."s and "this fluff says..."s you're no longer sticking to impartial and unbiased rules and also leads to the (valid) slippery sloop which i quoted. Sometimes I wish GW had comprehensive rules like magic the gathering.

And sometimes I wish people wouldn't care so much about a game of toy soldiers and instead followed the rules and 4+'d it.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Now let us look at the issue at hand. Archon assaults 5 man Strike Squad with attached Brotherhood Champion.

Archon rolls d3 for clones and is on fire getting 3 again.

Archon is in base to base with Brotherhood champion and Strike squad. He splits his 6 attacks evenly at initiative 7; killing the Brotherhood Champion and 3 of the Strike Squad.

The Brotherhood Champion takes and passes his psychic test for Heroic Sacrifice.

He rolls to hit against the Archon and hits.

Grey Knight Player: I successfully hit your archon, remove him from play while I remove my Brotherhood Champion from play.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE THAT HEROIC SACRIFICE HIT.

Grey Knight Player: I don't roll to wound with Heroic Sacrifice, I successfully hit your archon, so remove him from play.

Dark Eldar Player: <emo> Fortunately, you don't have to roll to wound - I negate the hit. You didn't successfully hit. You'd never have to roll to wound with Clone Field.

Brotherhood champion despairs at death as he murders a hologram

The above is RAW to the letter. I have not deviated from ANY of the rules as written as far as I can tell. Please anyone that thinks that Clone Field negates Heroic Sacrifice, by all means point out in the example I have given how it works.

Fixed that for you.

the point i am making is that the clone field happens after the hit roll and before the wound rolls. HS kicks in after the hit roll.


the timing of both is "in the middle" of your normal roll to hit then roll to wound process. the brb says absoultly nothing of this in between time frame. once you hit, you progress to wounds. if something happens to break that sequence it could be worded either as "after hits are made" or "before wound rolls". its like saying 7 comes before 8, and 8 comes after 7. we dont have any "whole" number that exists between them. we do have decimals and fractions etc, but we are focusing on whole numbers.


my argument is that since both pretty much occur at the same time, (because HS REQUIRES the hit to have an effect, and without a hit you have no removal), and since clone field directly states it NEGATES "any hit of the bearers choosing" but HS does not directly (aside from model removal) affect or negate the clone field the CF should work. plus, the key wording of HS is "IF the champion hits..." its otherwise treated exactly as a CC attack in all regards. "make an attack against an enemy in base contact" by definition thats a close combat attack.

the clone field "may completly nullify that round".

i would argue that the prhasing "just before the wound roll" exists as a furthar clarification to prevent players from waiting to see what hits wound etc. and as mentioned, what happens just before the wound roll is THE HIT roll. RAW there is nothing that happens between them! you roll to hit, i negate the hit, the hit does not exist, so the champ goes and archon keeps on swinging. HS does not on the other hand say immiedaitly remove a the same time you hit. its hit -> THEN remove... just like hit -> THEN roll to wound. removal of models has just replaced the wound step, and would be the same sort of mechanic.

the only other way i can see this otherwise, is a diceoff before the game. this kind of argument is not worth wrecking a game over. personally my group has already voted to the effect im arguing, (wich may be why im sticking to my guns here) but thats not to say your groups have to follow. rule it however the heck you want.... but without a FAQ this is not going to be resolved untill someone can cite RAW that explains what happens between making/allocating hits and rolling wounds.

The point youre making is that youre ignoring the phrase "just before" and assuming it means nothing.

You have a precise time the clone field works, and you know, for a fact, this occurs after HS works.

Your consistent ignorance of the rules undermines your argument, entirely.

Unit - oddly, TMIR is less than useful on a rule discussion forum. So much so its in the rules you agree to abide by - ahve a quick look at the Tenets of YMDC.

Again Nos is spot on.

we know when HS works.

we know when Clone Field works works.

one works just after you hit, the other works just before you roll to wound.

The flow chart looks like this:

To hit roll - Heroic Sacrifice (If you hit Model is removed).

thats it, HS does not roll to wound. even if id did the flow chart would look like this:

To hit roll - Heroic Sacrifice (If you hit Model is removed) - (Just before rolling to wound use CF) - To wound roll.

Been reading this thread since the day I posted it, and I think it's time for a mod to lock it.

There will be no definitive answer for this, because RAW, the two events in question happen at the exact same time. The roll to hit is just before the roll to wound. Think about it, when is the last time you've played a game and there was any step between rolling to hit and rolling to wound? Go ahead and picture it in your mind. You throw the dice to hit, scoop out the ones that missed and roll the remaining to wound. There is no extra steps in there, except maybe asking your opponent for a reminder of your model's toughness. After getting hit, and just before getting wounded are the exact same thing. So as the rules stand now, there is no definitive answer, and we can only hope for an FAQ.

Just one thing to say before I walk away from this thread, never to click upon it again. Calling someone else ignorant, or name calling in general undermines your own argument. Not that of your opponents. It just makes you look like a moron going for an ad hominem attack because you can't support your argument without mudslinging. Long and short, it makes you look like an donkey-cave, and people are far less likely to listen to you when you look like an donkey-cave. Whether you're right or not doesn't matter.

Food for thought.

Now, lock please.

curtis wrote:
But anyway I digress it doesn't work for one reason and one reason only the fact that clone field says "just before the roll to wound" this is the problem cause HS doesn't go past the "rolling to hit" step and since it just says "just before the roll to wound" which unless otherwise stated must happen in the "rolling to wound" step since that is when you roll to wound. Note: clone field would work if it said "after rolling to hit" instead of "just before the roll to wound", since the having to roll before wounds are rolled is already there.

I think everyone is hung up on the "before wounds are rolled" portion of the rule. Based upon the full quote posted in the 5th page, it seems to my reading that the phrasing of "before wounds are rolled" is stated specifically to prevent someone from waiting for the wound roll, seeing a 1 come up, or another failed result, and then not have to use up a clone.

I don't think that phrasing has anything to do with following or not following the close combat sequence.

And I don't agree with the argument about "when casualties are removed" and triggering the psychic power. If the archon kills the champ in I7, then that's when that casualty is removed, potentially in the middle of an ongoing close combat.

So I believe Clone Field works, because you can allocate it to the "hit" that the champion makes, and irrelevant that the psychic power doesn't roll to wound.

(By this same logic, the clone field wouldn't work on the old Rending. A cc hit by a genestealer "hits" on a 6 and auto wounds w no save. Since there is no "to wound" roll, clearly the clone field wouldn't work? Right?)

As with anything, my 2 cents.

I think you can still use the Clone Field.

Mainly because I think it would be really odd if you couldn't use the Clone Field against Gargoyles' Blinding Venom, which also bypasses the roll to wound.

I would argue that the determination of exactly "when" the clone field nullifies the attack is irrelevant.

Clone field gives the user a "number of hits upon the bearer that he may completely nullify that round, just before the roll to wound." Codex: Dark Eldar p. 62

Clone field doesn't make hits into misses. It can't go back in time and un-roll the die. It just stops the hit from proceeding on to the roll to wound stage of the hit-wound-save process. But Heroic Sacrifice doesn't wound anyway:

"If the Psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died. If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed. If the attack misses, only the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty." Codex: GK p. 26.

There are only three possible outcomes to Heroic Sacrifice:
1. The psychic test is failed and it has no effect.
2. The psychic test is passed, the attack misses, and the champion is removed.
3. The psychic test is passed, the attack hits, and both models are removed.

There are no wounds, no saves, etc. The rule asks only whether the attack hit. It doesn't care one bit what happens to the attack after that. Note that in order for Clone Field to apply, the attack must already be a hit. As soon as the attack hits, heroic sacrifice is triggered and the effect will apply regardless of whether the attack is later nullified or not.

So, take your pick - if heroic sacrifice applies first, the attack hit and both models are removed. If clone field applies first, the attack still hit, but it is now "completely nullified" and doesn't wound, but heroic sacrifice triggers anyway, and both models are removed.

Hope this helps!
-GK

Just before does nto change any timing since there is not an actual order of operations. (Outside of bullet points that agree with both sides)

The fallacy in another issue has no real bearing on this one unless you are allowing precident and unrelated rules.

Saying that a to-wound roll is necessary for a to-hit to be ignored is also a fallacy. That is not stated anywhere.

When there is not a to-hit roll made, after the to-hit is just before the (non-existant) to-wound roll.

Basically I think I agree with the folks saying it should work because there is NOT a requirement for a to-wound roll to be made for a clone field to negate a hit, and with the folks that says it does not because that whole line of logic is irrelevant.

ymmv

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As an odd, unrelated, and probably refuatable response. . .Infiltrate applies to deployment after friends and foes are deployed. Does this mean that if the foe does not deploy but goes entirely into reserves the infiltrators show up only after all of the emey is deployed? There is not "before the game" text invovled with INFILTRATE*.

Or do you think Reserves are deployed?