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your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.

TUNNEL VISION!!!

Heroic Sacrifice takes place when casualties are removed!!! It does not take place when rolling to hit or rolling to wound at initiative takes place!!

Seriously, read both rules and put them in the specific order of events!!

an interesting note, the just before to wound roll would be right after the remove the model eh?

DarthSpader wrote:your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Really? From the rules quoted in this thread,

...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made.

The rule tells you how many clone images are in effect and when said clone images negate hits. It does not tell you that they extend to ANY cc attack nor to the end of the round. In fact the rule is specific as to EXACTLY when the clones negate hits, "just before the roll to wound is made."

This discounts the fact that you are still considering Heroic Sacrifice a close combat attack when it is clearly labeled in the codex as a Psychic Power. This isn't like psychic shooting attacks that were FAQ to be defined as psychic shooting attacks with a criteria. There is no such thing as a psychic close combat attack that has been defined by a FAQ as far as I can tell.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.

TUNNEL VISION!!!

Heroic Sacrifice takes place when casualties are removed!!! It does not take place when rolling to hit or rolling to wound at initiative takes place!!

Seriously, read both rules and put them in the specific order of events!!

A) No need to scream.
B) So if Drazhar hits me with Riposte then I don't get a clone field either? HS makes an attack at that point in the initiative, after causalties granted, however it still needs to hit and after that which is just before rolling to wound I would ignore the hit with clone field.
C) I'm pretty sure I or someone else did that on the previous page.


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Brother Ramses wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Really? From the rules quoted in this thread,

...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made.

The rule tells you how many clone images are in effect and when said clone images negate hits. It does not tell you that they extend to ANY cc attack nor to the end of the round. In fact the rule is specific as to EXACTLY when the clones negate hits, "just before the roll to wound is made."

This discounts the fact that you are still considering Heroic Sacrifice a close combat attack when it is clearly labeled in the codex as a Psychic Power. This isn't like psychic shooting attacks that were FAQ to be defined as psychic shooting attacks with a criteria. There is no such thing as a psychic close combat attack that has been defined by a FAQ as far as I can tell.

It is a psychic power which as a part of its effect involves making a CC attack. So yes it is a psychic power and it's effect is a CC attack that does something different than the norm.

i dont think this is getting solved anytime soon without a FAQ. obviously both sides make arguments and both sides have valid points. problem being neither is really concrete. since im only repeating myself, like everyone else....would i be TFG to ask this be locked and lets move on?

DarthSpader wrote:i dont think this is getting solved anytime soon without a FAQ. obviously both sides make arguments and both sides have valid points. problem being neither is really concrete. since im only repeating myself, like everyone else....would i be TFG to ask this be locked and lets move on?

Honestly no you wouldn't...ask away.
I'm just gonna add that should this come up in game roll off on it. In a tourny ask the TO before hand, and as we all know don't argue with the TOs rulling.

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.

TUNNEL VISION!!!

Heroic Sacrifice takes place when casualties are removed!!! It does not take place when rolling to hit or rolling to wound at initiative takes place!!

Seriously, read both rules and put them in the specific order of events!!

A) No need to scream.
B) So if Drazhar hits me with Riposte then I don't get a clone field either? HS makes an attack at that point in the initiative, after causalties granted, however it still needs to hit and after that which is just before rolling to wound I would ignore the hit with clone field.
C) I'm pretty sure I or someone else did that on the previous page.


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Brother Ramses wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Really? From the rules quoted in this thread,

...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made.

The rule tells you how many clone images are in effect and when said clone images negate hits. It does not tell you that they extend to ANY cc attack nor to the end of the round. In fact the rule is specific as to EXACTLY when the clones negate hits, "just before the roll to wound is made."

This discounts the fact that you are still considering Heroic Sacrifice a close combat attack when it is clearly labeled in the codex as a Psychic Power. This isn't like psychic shooting attacks that were FAQ to be defined as psychic shooting attacks with a criteria. There is no such thing as a psychic close combat attack that has been defined by a FAQ as far as I can tell.

It is a psychic power which as a part of its effect involves making a CC attack. So yes it is a psychic power and it's effect is a CC attack that does something different than the norm.

HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but isnt the heroic sacrifice classed as an out of sequence attack? The clone field would be used against normal attacks, and seems as you can't store up your allocation of clone field 'saves' they'd be used up or removed at the end of your opponents attacks...

On the other hand though... if you've struck first and killed him before he can strike back then maybe it would...

I smell an FAQ / errata coming...

Good question, I like it!

Brother Ramses wrote:HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Just deleting some of the quote cause its rediculously long.
It uses a close combat attack as its effect. That's what I said before. If not then you can make the attack at any time he dies then? I'm sorry but if hits like a cc attack, if it takes place during the assault phase, then guess what? It is a cc attack. It is the effect of the psychic power, granted not all of it. To say that it does not occur at the same initiative means nothing. I again put forward Drazhar's Riposte to counter.

I'm not making up rules. I'm simply explaining my side of the discussion.

Hm, yes, seems to have been brought up already

kitch102 wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but isnt the heroic sacrifice classed as an out of sequence attack? The clone field would be used against normal attacks, and seems as you can't store up your allocation of clone field 'saves' they'd be used up or removed at the end of your opponents attacks...

So is Drazhars Riposte. And yet the clone field would still work. Where does it say that it only works against normal attacks. It says that it nullifies a hit. That would be any hit in cc directed at the archon can be ignored if I choose and have a clone left.

kitch102 wrote:
On the other hand though... if you've struck first and killed him before he can strike back then maybe it would...

I smell an FAQ / errata coming...

Good question, I like it!

Sorry that was me...I had beans for lunch
Seriously though me too, and as per GWs recent trend of DE vs GK faqs we will get the short end again.

But HS only takes place if the character has lost combat and is about to die. (I'm not 100% on this, please correct if necessary).

If the archon has won combat then his CF will have dissipated, so HS could get through, as it's out of sequence.



It's all hypothetical until GW pass the hand of god over the rules and 1 up the marines again lol


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Akroma06 wrote:Seriously though me too, and as per GWs recent trend of DE vs GK faqs we will get the short end again.

Sooooooooooooo true

Actually it's not if he lost combat, its when the champ dies. So it doesn't matter if it was an archon at I7, a wych at I6, a warrior at I5, or an Incubi that went through terrain at I1 HS goes off when the guy dies and passes his test. The clones could still be there (if he has any left) since the combat is not over yet.

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Just deleting some of the quote cause its rediculously long.
It uses a close combat attack as its effect. That's what I said before. If not then you can make the attack at any time he dies then? I'm sorry but if hits like a cc attack, if it takes place during the assault phase, then guess what? It is a cc attack. It is the effect of the psychic power, granted not all of it. To say that it does not occur at the same initiative means nothing. I again put forward Drazhar's Riposte to counter.

I'm not making up rules. I'm simply explaining my side of the discussion.

Seriously man, read the rule.

"This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase."

That tells you EXACTLY when it can be used, NOT anytime that he dies.

And no, it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that uses a to hit and remove a model from play as the mechanic. As I said, there is no definition for a "psychic close combat attack power" like GW did for psychic shooting attacks. It can hit like a close combat attack, but it is a psychic power, not a close combat attack. You have zero standing against that.

However that is all a moot point because you cannot even answer to the fact that the Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound and that HS is a psychic power that hits when casualties are removed.

Yeah ok, my bad on the wording there but essentially that's what I was saying.

Hmmm... this one'll go on for days!

I don't think it'll take effect personally, as I'm pretty sure the CF would only be used "in sequence", and wouldn't carry on throughout the whole turn (if it did, then you should roll for the number of attacks that you can negate at the start of each turn and be able to use it against shooting attacks as well).

More than happy to be wrong though, would love for the marines to not be given the win on this like they were with the crucible of malediction (let's not start debating that one again though!)


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Or Ramses could just end it now with a pretty damn valid point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I think given that it occurs in the assault phase it can be assumed that it is made as a closecombat attack. It doesn't specify it being an area of effect attack, so logically...

Brother Ramses wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Just deleting some of the quote cause its rediculously long.
It uses a close combat attack as its effect. That's what I said before. If not then you can make the attack at any time he dies then? I'm sorry but if hits like a cc attack, if it takes place during the assault phase, then guess what? It is a cc attack. It is the effect of the psychic power, granted not all of it. To say that it does not occur at the same initiative means nothing. I again put forward Drazhar's Riposte to counter.

I'm not making up rules. I'm simply explaining my side of the discussion.

Seriously man, read the rule.

"This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase."

That tells you EXACTLY when it can be used, NOT anytime that he dies.

And no, it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that uses a to hit and remove a model from play as the mechanic. As I said, there is no definition for a "psychic close combat attack power" like GW did for psychic shooting attacks. It can hit like a close combat attack, but it is a psychic power, not a close combat attack. You have zero standing against that.

However that is all a moot point because you cannot even answer to the fact that the Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound and that HS is a psychic power that hits when casualties are removed.

So if you wait until after that fights over then the clone field isn't active...so there is no discussion. How does the model hit using the psychic power. With a CLOSE COMBAT ATTACK. I have never said that is not a psychic power...EVER. In fact I have said that it IS a psychic power.
I have been saying along along that yes it his when casualties are removed and I know your going to say well then it is not before the to wound roll. Again I point you in the direction of my example involving the SM sgt with a PF. There would be no to wound roll there either.

The difference there being that to wound rolls are occasionally needed with PF's, but never with the HS.

Compare HS to Riposte:

Riposte:

Archon d3 for clones.

Both archon and Drazhar attack simultaneous.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits from Drazhar.

Roll to wound on both hits from archon and Drazhar.

Take saves.

Drazhar's Riposte kicks in on any saves of 6's.

Drazhar rolls to hit with Riposte attacks.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Heroic Strike:

Archon rolls d3 for clones.

Archon attacks first.

Roll to wound.

Brotherhood Champion takes saves if possible, in this case he dies.

Remove as casualty; Take psychic test.

Roll to hit.

If hit, remove archon and brotherhood champion.

Now notice what is part of Riposte and what is NOT part of Heroic Sacrifice?

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Even while Drazhar's attack is made outside of the normal procedure for resolving an attack made in the Assault phase (similar to Heroic Sacrifice), the similarity ends there.

Riposte still requires you to roll to wound.

Riposte is not labeled as a, "Psychic Power".

Heroic Sacrifice does not cause wounds.

So would you never get the clone if only one hits? There would never be a to wound roll if only one ever hit...say an imobilised dreadnought with no arms. So can you not use the CF then? Good luck telling a DE player that.

With that said I really kind hope this gets locked in that there won't be a decision and there hasn't been for 5 freaking pages, but if its not after the weekend I'll be back to discuss it some more.


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Brother Ramses wrote:Compare HS to Riposte:

Riposte:

Archon d3 for clones.

Both archon and Drazhar attack simultaneous.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits from Drazhar.

Roll to wound on both hits from archon and Drazhar.

Take saves.

Drazhar's Riposte kicks in on any saves of 6's.

Drazhar rolls to hit with Riposte attacks.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Heroic Strike:

Archon rolls d3 for clones.

Archon attacks first.

Roll to wound.

Brotherhood Champion takes saves if possible, in this case he dies.

Remove as casualty; Take psychic test.

Roll to hit.

If hit, remove archon and brotherhood champion.

Now notice what is part of Riposte and what is NOT part of Heroic Sacrifice?

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Even while Drazhar's attack is made outside of the normal procedure for resolving an attack made in the Assault phase (similar to Heroic Sacrifice), the similarity ends there.

Riposte still requires you to roll to wound.

Riposte is not labeled as a, "Psychic Power".

Heroic Sacrifice does not cause wounds.

My point was that Drazhar happens out of the "normal" steps for things. He attacks again after to wound. Otherwise he has no save to make.

Akroma06 wrote:So would you never get the clone if only one hits? There would never be a to wound roll if only one ever hit...say an imobilised dreadnought with no arms. So can you not use the CF then? Good luck telling a DE player that.

With that said I really kind hope this gets locked in that there won't be a decision and there hasn't been for 5 freaking pages, but if its not after the weekend I'll be back to discuss it some more.


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Brother Ramses wrote:Compare HS to Riposte:

Riposte:

Archon d3 for clones.

Both archon and Drazhar attack simultaneous.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits from Drazhar.

Roll to wound on both hits from archon and Drazhar.

Take saves.

Drazhar's Riposte kicks in on any saves of 6's.

Drazhar rolls to hit with Riposte attacks.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Heroic Strike:

Archon rolls d3 for clones.

Archon attacks first.

Roll to wound.

Brotherhood Champion takes saves if possible, in this case he dies.

Remove as casualty; Take psychic test.

Roll to hit.

If hit, remove archon and brotherhood champion.

Now notice what is part of Riposte and what is NOT part of Heroic Sacrifice?

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Even while Drazhar's attack is made outside of the normal procedure for resolving an attack made in the Assault phase (similar to Heroic Sacrifice), the similarity ends there.

Riposte still requires you to roll to wound.

Riposte is not labeled as a, "Psychic Power".

Heroic Sacrifice does not cause wounds.

My point was that Drazhar happens out of the "normal" steps for things. He attacks again after to wound. Otherwise he has no save to make.

Drazhar's Riposte triggers another, "before rolling to wound" which is all the Clone Field cares about. Heroic Sacrifice NEVER triggers the, "before rolling to wound" instance. That is why they are different.

I have no idea where you are going by continuing to bring up the powerfist example. Despite being initiative 1, rolling to hit and rolling to wound still happen before remove casualties when Heroic Sacrifice happens.

Akroma06 wrote:So would you never get the clone if only one hits? There would never be a to wound roll if only one ever hit...say an imobilised dreadnought with no arms.

Correct, as the PF insta-kills the archon as it's double his toughness. It bypasses the to wound roll, which is where the CF would be used. It doesn't negate hits, it negate wounds.

Good luck telling a DE player that.

I am a DE player

Please explain how a powerfist does not still roll to wound against an archon.

Kitch102 may have made a mistake there... lol

kitch102 wrote:Kitch102 may have made a mistake there... lol

Yea, but that doesn't explain what the hell Akroma is talking about.

I'm a bit confused myself and could definitely do with grabbing the dex, but it's the bedroom and I dont wana wake the missus up!

The pf scenario would be, I believe as follows;

Archon attacks, wounds, does not kill.

Opponent attacks with pf, scores (say) 2 hits. The archon has rolled 2 clone field things and applies one to each hit.

1st attack fails to wound. No clone 'save' needed, clone save is discarded.

2nd hit wounds. And this is where another point of debate may come about. Will it a) ignore the clone save, as the wound roll is doulbe the archons toughness or b) does the archon get to take the save as theoretically the opponent is hitting 'shadows'. Which is why we need errata, and what I misunderstood in Akromas post.

Back on topic:

The Archon attacks his opponent last, whose attacks he survived by using all but 1 of the clone saves that he generated this turn (it wasn't required)

Archon kills opponent. Opponent passes psychic test and uses heroic strike. Next point of debate, which brought us on to the PF scenario: do you get to use the left over clone field save, or not, to try and avoid this. The arguements for both sides are: for) you roll the save before wounds are generated, against) you dont roll to wound for a HS attack, it just needs to hit. For) The clone field is intended to stop you hitting the right target, so the save should count Against) rules as written....

Its the fallacy that, if you remove the one hit (or all of them) and nothing else hits you at that I step, then the illogical claim is that you cannot trigger Clone Field as you will now no longer roll to wound

Its the smae fallacy as with Feel No Pain and ignoring wounds, and has exactly as much validity

in CC casualties are removed at each initive step are they not? I7 goes - attacks resolved then initi 6 and so on down to init 1. models removed during those init steps are then counted up afterwards. so technically if the champ was removed at init 7 step, or even init 6, there is still plenty of fighting left. so its *not* out of sequence.

check out page 39 BRB:

"allocating wounds"
"after determinging the number of wounds inflicted against a unit at a particular initiave value, the unit takes saves and casaulties are removed as detailed below ... "

"Removing casulties"
"... if a model becomes a casualty before it has an opurtunity to attack then it may not strike back..."

therefore: everything is resolved at init order. its not roll all attacks at once, wound all at once, remove casaulties all at once and so on like shooting. while it does refrence wound allocation akin to shooting attacks, like hitting diversified multi wound models etc, it all takes place at multiple initive orders. so if you have init 7 archon, init 6 incubi, init 5 champ, and init 4 knights, you get to do the 'hit/wound/save/remove' stages four seperate times at each init.

finally, as mentioned to death - champ requires a hit roll. it also happens DURING the phase, because as soon as the champ is removed at an initive order his ability can trigger. so if hes killed at init 6 step, there is still inits 5,4,3,2,1, to resolve in the normal fashion. the fact that it occurs AFTER or WHILE the champ is being removed has no effect on other inits, and it dosent change the fact that its still a close combat attack and 'to hit' roll made DURING the fight. clone field allows disregarding of ANY attack during the fight. (providing he has available clones, and hasent used them up vrs other attacks)

as a further example:

shooting phase****
assault phase
declare charges - > defenders react
**archon rolls for clone field**
I7: archon (assuming he has highest init vrs GK) makes his attacks and as the champ is an IC can allocate. the archon ends up killing the champ.
***HS kicks in, champ makes his special attack***
I6: klaivex or wych or whatever attacks against GK/resolve
I5: other DE attack/resolve
I4: GK attack/resolve
I1: powerfists etc attack/resolve
***end of fight***
total casualties and take LD checks as required.

so in that example the HS attack meets the requirments of
A: having the champion removed as a casultie during either assault phase (as per above, this can happen at any init step)
B: requires a sucsessful "to hit roll"
C: the clone field has no requirments other then being "hit" in close combat. since the fight still has other init steps to resolve, the fight is ongoing (including more "to hit rolls" from other models attacking other models)
D: so clone fields requirments are met, as is HS, therefore clonefield can negate HS, since clonefield has no restrictions on when it can be used. it simply stops the HIT.

the reason for its wording, is because if character A has 12 attacks icomprised of 7 power wep, 3 normal and 2 ID, and archon has 2 clones, he can wait to see what attacks actually hit him. and choose to negate those he feels pose the most threat. once hes decided, then the ones that go through are resolved with wound rolls/saves and so on.

if heroic sacrifce requires a to hit roll, the archon could interupt it with his field, negating the hit BEFORE it gets to the remove model stage, because in order to remove the models, you must make a sucsessful hit, and the clone field negates that hit as if it never happened.

additonally, since this is the case if HS did not require the champ to be already removed, he would still be in the fight since the effect of HS is to remove both models. were the champ not already in process of being removed as a requirment for the power, the entire thing dosent happen and any effect on the champ would also be negated (being removed)

What DarthSpader just said.

The CF pg. 62 DE Codex: "...The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that he may completely nullify that round, just before the roll to wound. The bearer may choose which attacks are nullified. Once the roll to wound is made, though, there's no going back, so choose which attacks to nullify carefully!" emphasis mine.

The key phrase is Hits are nullified. The timing for the wound roll is in there so that players don't decide to remove a hit after it wounds, see the clarifying second sentence.

The only timing posed in the HS is to "immediately" make an attack. It doesn't specify exactly when the removal of the models takes place, we only know they are removed before the next initiative step.

CF works.

My issue here is it is a psycic power. Would you be able to negate gift of chaos? If you can justify it negating the psychic power then I agree wholeheartedly weith your argument but I havent seen where it says you can negate hits caused by powers. It just seems like it negates cc attacks.


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Vindicare-Obsession wrote:My issue here is it is a psycic power. Would you be able to negate gift of chaos? If you can justify it negating the psychic power then I agree wholeheartedly weith your argument but I havent seen where it says you can negate hits caused by powers. It just seems like it negates cc attacks.

EDIT-- also, if I am not mistaken heroic sacrifice takes place after the combat is resolved (at least thats how me and my buddies have always played it). If so then does the clones ability carry over?