Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Please note that this attack is not done in normal combat. In this Variant there is Psychic Test; Roll to hit; Remove from play

Psychic tests don't alter the fact that the power is used in close combat. In addition, the power itself is an attack, just like any other attack, there is just no wound roll.

Because there isn't a wound roll doesn't mean that the time in between when the hit is made and when any wounds would be rolled is gone.

And, yet again, people are ignoring the key part of the phrase - JUST BEFORE rolling to wound
By the time you get to "just before" which bu definition is the LAST thing you do before you roll to wound, HS has already removed the model

1) You remove the model after the to-hit is succesful. By definition this is before "just before" the to wound

If you disagree you are allowing Scout moves to occur any time before the game starts. Which is totally wrong.

2) There is never a to-wound roll with HS, you CANNOT perform something "just before" a roll to wound that will never occur.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah - no, you're making the FNP fallacy there.

random thought on this topic.....

would a tyranid gargoyle ignore the clone field??

on a 6 to hit they auto wound - no wound roll.


as a GK player i would always let people use the clones against the brotherhood champion and crowe. as far as i can see there is no difference between "after rolling to hit" and "just before rolling to wound" - they are the exact same things

Except theyre not.

Otherwise youre allowing Scout moves to happen before Infiltrate, or hell at any point during deployment.

"JUST BEFORE" means exactly that - JUST before. Not any time before, not a bit before but we'll let something else go after us, JUST before.

Saying theyre the same thing shows a critical lack of understranding of the English language

Ignoring hits does this strange thing... it ignores the hit! Wow, go figure!

It ignores up to 3 hits BEFORE rolls to hit are made, the owning player gets to pick and choose which hits get ignored.

So since the hit was "ignored" before he even swung, he Heroic Sacraficed himself to take out a clone image.

Ignore= just that- Ignore it like it never happened or never was.

Anglacon wrote:Ignoring hits does this strange thing... it ignores the hit! Wow, go figure!

It ignores up to 3 hits BEFORE rolls to hit are made, the owning player gets to pick and choose which hits get ignored.

So since the hit was "ignored" before he even swung, he Heroic Sacraficed himself to take out a clone image.

Ignore= just that- Ignore it like it never happened or never was.

Clones do not take effect before hitting, they take effect just before wounding which is what the debate is about.

Cryonicleech wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Please note that this attack is not done in normal combat. In this Variant there is Psychic Test; Roll to hit; Remove from play

Psychic tests don't alter the fact that the power is used in close combat. In addition, the power itself is an attack, just like any other attack, there is just no wound roll.

Because there isn't a wound roll doesn't mean that the time in between when the hit is made and when any wounds would be rolled is gone.

The fact that it's a Psychic power absolutely matters. It happens after casualties are removed, and there is no permission to go back and have a to-wound step. Without that to-wound step there's no way to allocate the negation.

Anglacon wrote:Ignoring hits does this strange thing... it ignores the hit! Wow, go figure!

It ignores up to 3 hits BEFORE rolls to hit are made, the owning player gets to pick and choose which hits get ignored.

Wrong. You may wish to either reread your codex, or this thread, where the correct rules have been given.

Given your premise is false your conclusion is as well.

Lokas wrote:I'll go ahead and quote the two relevant sections from the codices for reference.

Heroic Sacrifice: "... If the psychic test is successful, the brotherhood champion immediately makes a single attack... If this attack hits, both models are removed with no saves of any kind allowed."

Clone Field: "...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

I'm still not sure whether or not it would work, because of the roll to wound in the Clone Field description. It's the one thing that doesn't fit, seeing as there is no roll to wound. Other than that, the way it's worded, because Heroic Sacrifice is described as an attack (with a psychic test prerequisite) if there was a roll to wound, it would be nullified with Clone Field, no questions ask. Simply put, Clone Field is not a save.

Edit for spelling.

Order of close combat: 1: Roll to hit, 2: Roll to wound, 3: Roll to save.

The Champion makes a HS which works as an additional attack; 1: Roll to hit, 2: (which could be argued as there is no specific time frame allocated) Remove models (you don't roll to wound just remove models), 3: No saves possible.

The Clone Field: 1: Roll for clones, 2: Roll to hit. 3: Remove hits, 4: Roll to wound/remove models, 5: Make saves/no saves possible.

As Clone Fields removes hits, then it removes the HS hit, and that's the way I would play it.

rigeld2 wrote:Heroic Sacrifice is tested for, and rolls to hit, after armor saves have already been rolled - long after Clone Field gets to negate the hit..

Not necessarily. If the archon is at a higher Initiative than Crowe, then order would be as follows:
1: Roll d3 for clones.
2: Archon attacks
3: Archon hits/wounds
4: Crowe fails enough saves to die.
5: Crowe successfully hits with HS, at this time, the ONLY model to have made any attacks is the archon, therefore, he would still have clones to use in this combat.
6: ???
7: PROFIT!!! (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Mabus - except, as you ignored, it removes hits AFTER the HS has already removed the model.

I just read a GW FAQ that clarifies the issue. due to weird temporal anomalies, and other sciency stuff GK and DE are never allowed to fight each other. Ever. Dont even try. It's like dividing by zero.


That should solve things.

But if the clone field negates the hit, the model isn't removed from the table, so clone field could activate without problem . . .
Do you see how silly this whole thing is? You have no information on which ability has priority in any way. All you have is guesswork.

Heroic Sacrifice doesn't state that no to wound roll is made. In fact, it specifically states that you are making a "single attack". I don't see how you can possibly argue that Heroic Sacrifice has a precise point in that it triggers, it's just an if statement. Since we have no specific time, Clone field can activate and prevent the hit.

It seems that the only way to decide this would be to make a poll.

Irdiumstern wrote:But if the clone field negates the hit, the model isn't removed from the table, so clone field could activate without problem . . .
Do you see how silly this whole thing is? You have no information on which ability has priority in any way. All you have is guesswork.

Do you mean apart from the phrase "just before"? If you're going to claim "no information" then actually addressing any of the points from the past 4 pages would be a slightly more useful argument to make.

"Just before" is the very last thing you do before rolling to wound. removing the model happens before this. Meaning the model with the clone field is already removed by the time your chance to negate the hit has come around.

We have a precise time for Clone Field, and we know that HS is after the to-hit is successful. We know this time is before Clone Field.

We know, absolutely, all of this. If you cannot address this without ignoring words, then you dont have an argument

Irdiumstern wrote:Heroic Sacrifice doesn't state that no to wound roll is made.

There is no S value, there is nothing indicating you are allowed to roll to wound.

In fact, it specifically states that you are making a "single attack".

Correct. And since the attack consists of a To-hit roll and a model removal, there is no to-wound step.

I don't see how you can possibly argue that Heroic Sacrifice has a precise point in that it triggers, it's just an if statement.

We do have a specific time. If the attack hits, remove models. There's no permission for delays.

Since we have no specific time, Clone field can activate and prevent the hit.

Except Clone Field does have a specific time. HS never allows that specific time.

mrspadge wrote:random thought on this topic.....

would a tyranid gargoyle ignore the clone field??

on a 6 to hit they auto wound - no wound roll.

Yes, that's what they're saying. No, it doesn't make sense.

All of this language and stuff is confusing me; GW didn't divide things up into "to-hit steps" and "to wound steps," just rolls. This isn't magic the gathering where an adequate analysis of words yields an answer.

Fluffily, however, I see Clone Field working, because he heroically sacrifices himself, but his last vision is a hologram winking out of existence to maniacal laughter.

Not that anyone here cares for fluff, I mean, why would it matter? This is SRS BUSINESS!

is this the first time two groups have gotten a old of 1 paragraph and decyphered it into 2 completely different things where despite both sides making sense they still insist that the others cannot be correct?

No, this is not the first time one side has entirely ignored one key phrase, and pretended it doesnt exist

Nor is this the first time that someone pulled timing into a warhammer 40k rule debate. Or took a minor phrase with a specific purpose to mean something much more general.

answering my earlier post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except theyre not.

Otherwise youre allowing Scout moves to happen before Infiltrate, or hell at any point during deployment.

"JUST BEFORE" means exactly that - JUST before. Not any time before, not a bit before but we'll let something else go after us, JUST before.

Saying theyre the same thing shows a critical lack of understranding of the English language

i know i'm a lowly, inept, uneducated peasant farmer who is more interested in what colour the grass is than understanding the England Speaky and should bow to the lessons of my (apparant) betters but my take on this is:



1) what happens "just before the roll to wound"???
- i'm going with (wait for it...) "the roll to hit"


2) find me a RAW step in between these 2 actions
- all heroic sacrifice does is bypass allocating/rolling for wounds, which have nothing to do with the clone fields anyway

3) unless there is a RULES step between these actions, then rolling to hit is "just before rolling" to wound.



and to throw a question at nosferatu1001 - dont the scout moves say to move after both sides have deployed (i seem to remember them even saying after infiltrators but dont have my rulebook to hand)?

My point being if the sides look like this.

Archon and 3 Incubi. Archon has clone field.
10 Space Marines. Sgt has powerfist.
Sgt. is the only guy in base to base with the archon. The archon rolls up 2 clones. The archon swings kiling 3. The Incubi then swing killing 3. The three marines swing back. Killing 2 Incubi. The Sgt. then swings with his PF. and hits once. The Archon ignores the hit. If you cannot roll to hit then how did that hit get ignored. Should the sgt. kill the archon on a 2+? There would not be a "to wound roll" so how can the hit be ignored? Clearly we normally would agree that it can be.

This isn't much different than the Archon rolling up some clones then using a huskblade to kill a Chamion. The champion rolls his psychic test. Makes an attack so he rolls to hit. The hit would be ignored. There is no difference.

Make Clones --- Archon kills ---- Other side (marines or champ with HS) swing and hit ----- hits are ignored ---- any hits that get through roll to wound

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, this is not the first time one side has entirely ignored one key phrase, and pretended it doesnt exist

well, it's not like they're ALL doing that, right? no?

Akroma06 wrote:My point being if the sides look like this.

Archon and 3 Incubi. Archon has clone field.
10 Space Marines. Sgt has powerfist.
Sgt. is the only guy in base to base with the archon. The archon rolls up 2 clones. The archon swings kiling 3. The Incubi then swing killing 3. The three marines swing back. Killing 2 Incubi. The Sgt. then swings with his PF. and hits once. The Archon ignores the hit. If you cannot roll to hit then how did that hit get ignored. Should the sgt. kill the archon on a 2+? There would not be a "to wound roll" so how can the hit be ignored? Clearly we normally would agree that it can be.

This isn't much different than the Archon rolling up some clones then using a huskblade to kill a Chamion. The champion rolls his psychic test. Makes an attack so he rolls to hit. The hit would be ignored. There is no difference.

Make Clones --- Archon kills ---- Other side (marines or champ with HS) swing and hit ----- hits are ignored ---- any hits that get through roll to wound

now I like you logic, well, I like the way you constructed your rebuttle anyway. all your opponents are just saying that the Clone Field is meant to jump between a point in time that was never imminent but you say it would never be imminent in the first place whether it came from a Heroic Sacrafice or a gunbut to the face.

why would people argue that we need to have an upcoming 'roll to wound' so we can ignore it? but we DO need a 'roll to wound' to ignore for the Clone Field to make sense, like, we need to read the whole rule. though that's not to say it doesn't make sense if we interpret it a different way. but we can't just devalue a particular line for our benefit. still, the rule is referencing a stage in play that it stops before it hits, then again, Heroic Sacrafice stops before it gets there as well.

I suppose you could take it as the Clone Field is used to stop the 'roll to wound' while Heroic Sacrafice doesn't try to wound you.

what are these Clones made of anyway? I'd wager that a Psyker could distinguish between a field of energy and an Eldar. frankly itd make more sense if he did take out the Archon.

Lotet wrote:what are these Clones made of anyway? I'd wager that a Psyker could distinguish between a field of energy and an Eldar. frankly itd make more sense if he did take out the Archon.

First, they're the best of the best....of the best SM. And Master Swordsmen. AND being psychers...I think they'd know which was a clone and which had a psychic presence.

Going by RAW (not stateing them again they've been posted enough) timeline states Archon is dead.

This debate has gone golden with people just making up crap now.

Pay attention folks,

HEROIC SACRIFICE IS A PSYCHIC POWER!

It takes the form of a hit that removes a model from play. It is not close combat. Being granted a attack does not make it close combat. That is how the psychic power is resolved and that is it. There is no counting, one Mississippi, two Mississippi to account for a theoretical roll to wound. There is no theoretical, if the model has protection from being removed from play, it still wounds.

Heroic Sacrifice is a psychic power and you employ said psychic power as it is written, NOTHING MORE and NOTHING LESS!

So an abbreviated Assault phase breakdown;

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound
3. Take saves
4. Remove Casualties

Now put in what happens with the Clone Field and Heroic Strike;

A. ".....When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect."

1. Roll to hit.

B. "The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

2. Roll to Wound.

3. Take Saves.

4./C./D. Remove casualties./C. "This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase."/D. "If the psychic test is successful, the brotherhood champion immediately makes a single attack... If this attack hits, both models are removed with no saves of any kind allowed."

Now take note where the Clone Field negates hits!

Now take note when the psychic power Heroic Sacrifice takes place!

The Clone Field does absolutely NOTHING against Heroic Sacrifice!

if heroic sacrifice didnt have to make a "to hit" roll for its effect then fine. i agree clone fields would be useless. but since it does. and since clone fields negate said to hit rolls.... is pretty simple. especially since both events occur in that obscured "after hits are rolled" and "before wound rolls" part. and as mentioned there is no specfic RAW that says what happens in that between phase time, and what order said happenings occur in. we have to simply abstract them.

i would argue that heroic sacrifice is simaler to other abilities such as drazhars "reposite" skill. that attack is a special out of initive attack drazhar makes under special circumstance (armor save passed on a 6). the attack rolls to hit and wound normally, but if directed at an archon, the archon could negate that hit with his clone field.

generally warhammer follows "if - then" logic.
if you hit then you roll to wound.
if you are wounded then roll a save
if you have no save or fail the save then you are removed.

heroic sacrifice and clone field still follow those rules but place new condidtions.

if champion is killed, then make a psyker test for heroic sacrifice.
if psyker test passed then roll to hit
if hit, then apply effect. in this case no need to roll a wound, just remove the model. it "skips" the to wound roll.

likewise

if archon is hit, then check to see if any clones "active"
if clones active, then number of active clones may negate equal number of chosen hits.

so to combine this process:

-archon makes attacks vrs champion. IF he hits THEN roll to wound.
-IF he wounds,THEN the champion makes saves
-IF saves are failed, or unavailable THEN remove the champion as a casultie
-IF the champion has HS, THEN make a psyker test
-IF pysker test passed THEN roll to hit the archon
-IF the archon takes a HIT, THEN his clone field can activate and negate the hit." nullifying it as if it did not exist"
-IF no clone field available, THEN remove both models from play.

(granted i inserted the clone field into remove, but that can be applied to any other ID attack on the archon)

once again the key points of this is that the champion makes a "to hit" attack in close combat. how he does this, (psyker, wargear, drugs, fancy paintjob etc) dont matter at all. the process of achieving the attack roll dose not matter. likewise, the clone field may negate any attack that the bearer chooses. not the first 2 or whatever, or the ones that beat his armor etc. the condidtions of use "are any the bearer chooses" since HS is a CC HIT - nullified. wound rolls dont matter because both rules NEVER GET TO THE WOUND STAGE, and as mentioned previously, there is no RAW for what happens when 2 things occur at aproximitly the same time. "just before wounds" is anything after "hits". it exists in that limbo of a phase. since HS does not specficlly remove clone fields, but clone fields negate hits, (wich is required by HS) then clone field works. if they both specficlly dealt with each other, such as for example if HS mentioned something like "the targeted model may not use any saves or wargear to stop this attack" then 100% HS beats clone field. but it does not, so there you have it.

For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

QFT

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.