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lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
Old gw has never left.
True, was just a temporary illusion that they improved cause their community interaction/PR improved a bit.
lost_lilliputian wrote: I've seen a review stating the rules for the new Ork Kommandos and Krieg Veterans in the box set are specifically NOT in the Compendium. Are there other reviews confirming this too?
I've heard the same thing, which is disastrously dumb in my opinion. The point of a compendium is that it's a compendium, this is just good ol GW rearing it's old head again. If it's true, of course.
Old gw has never left.
Won’t effect sales I bet, so no need for GW to worry.
The rules are a little steep, but it’s ok I think. The other stuff on top is bit meh, with the rulers and would want acrylic anyway.
But if they where to do individual books for factions It would be a huge waste, better to ad one or two units to each faction in a good campaign book.
Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I agree, I refuse to use KT1/2! Instead I use KT18 and KT21, as per the year of release.
alextroy wrote: I don't think anyone is complaining about getting all the factions at once. They are complaining about paying $50 for the Compendium and $50 for the Core Rules. They would probably be fine with it if it was $50 for the two of them shrink-wrapped together.
Yes, this illustrates what I was getting at. Thank you.
£20 for the rules and £25 for the compendium would have been somewhat reasonable, but £30 each - especially as softbacks - is just GW being stupid.
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
At least they aren't adding .0's like in AOS land where even now AOS 2nd edition is referred as AOS 2.0...ummm...if .0 never changes why add .0 in the first place
Apple fox wrote: But if they where to do individual books for factions It would be a huge waste, better to ad one or two units to each faction in a good campaign book.
From watching GMG look at the rulebook & Octarius book, my gut feeling is Compendium for now, then different campaign books to expand the factions. Like for now you have Veteran Guard/Kommandos separate from Imperial Guard/Orks with the Octarius book,
Apple fox wrote: But if they where to do individual books for factions It would be a huge waste, better to ad one or two units to each faction in a good campaign book.
From watching GMG look at the rulebook & Octarius book, my gut feeling is Compendium for now, then different campaign books to expand the factions. Like for now you have Veteran Guard/Kommandos separate from Imperial Guard/Orks with the Octarius book,
Reading between it lines it does sound like the plan to have dedicated Kill-Teams like Kommandos and Vets and the Compendium stuff is (£30) filler until they get around to giving most of the 40k factions their own box.
Question is are they all going to be hidden behind huge boxsets like Octarius? With the way terrain, sorry, 'Kill-Zones' now work, it wouldn't shock me if they were.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 11:13:19
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
At least they aren't adding .0's like in AOS land where even now AOS 2nd edition is referred as AOS 2.0...ummm...if .0 never changes why add .0 in the first place
It's a bad habit justified by the various stages of 1st ed. Just like 40k 3rd ed saw a paradigm shift of such significance in its latter half that the term 3.5 is used to this day.
I wonder if anybody does it with AoS 3rd ed anymore. I can understand if people didn't trust 2nd ed to be a stable edition after the mess of 1st ed, but I like to think we've moved on from that in the meantime.
As for Kill Team, I agree with the approach mentioned further up the page that with GW's rapid releases, change for the sake of change and DLC mimicry, combining name and release year has merit because it's simple and clear and works regardless of a standalone rule set or rules integrated in the 40k rulebook.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 12:04:05
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I only count 4? There was the KT rules included in 4th edition 40k (which I'm sad that they never really seemed to revisit that concept, the asymmetric approach where one player played a kill team and the other a team of sentries was interesting), Kill Team 2016, Kill Team 2018 (the "current" edition, I think technically considered the 2nd edition of the 2016 rules), and Kill Team 2021 (the "new" edition, technically considered the 3rd edition of the 2016 rules).
Other than that, theres Shadow War Armageddon which isn't technically Kill Team - spiritually it could be seen as an equivalent to Kill Team, mechanically its a successor to the original Necromunda.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I only count 4? There was the KT rules included in 4th edition 40k (which I'm sad that they never really seemed to revisit that concept, the asymmetric approach where one player played a kill team and the other a team of sentries was interesting), Kill Team 2016, Kill Team 2018 (the "current" edition, I think technically considered the 2nd edition of the 2016 rules), and Kill Team 2021 (the "new" edition, technically considered the 3rd edition of the 2016 rules).
Other than that, theres Shadow War Armageddon which isn't technically Kill Team - spiritually it could be seen as an equivalent to Kill Team, mechanically its a successor to the original Necromunda.
There were at least two different KT ruleset versions released via WD, IIRC. 200 points, no vehicles with more armor than a Rhino, no termie armor... that kinda thing.
This new one is the third box edition (this one, the admech-gsc one and the tau-marines one), so adding the two WD editions it would be the 5th.
Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 15:18:59
SamusDrake wrote: Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
The first box had the 40k rulebook too, but you still needed the units. By that metric, yes, the previous box would be the first stand alone one. But it was still also a modded game of 40k, so...
Is this then the true first edition of Kill Team, seeing as it's actually a different game now?
SamusDrake wrote: Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
The first box had the 40k rulebook too, but you still needed the units. By that metric, yes, the previous box would be the first stand alone one. But it was still also a modded game of 40k, so...
Is this then the true first edition of Kill Team, seeing as it's actually a different game now?
Wait.... What if 40k's next edition is a modded version of Kill Team '21?
Wait.... What if 40k's next edition is a modded version of Kill Team '21?
not impossible, if KT21 does well enough and shows enough popularity. Extermely unlikely, but not flat out impossible.
more likely would be the porting of some of the design elements back into mainstream 40K if they feel they work well at that scale. i dont know which those might be, id have to wait and see how KT21 works in practice, but its possible.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
Wait.... What if 40k's next edition is a modded version of Kill Team '21?
not impossible, if KT21 does well enough and shows enough popularity. Extermely unlikely, but not flat out impossible.
more likely would be the porting of some of the design elements back into mainstream 40K if they feel they work well at that scale. i dont know which those might be, id have to wait and see how KT21 works in practice, but its possible.
I could see bringing over the KT random-from-a-selected-set secondary objective making it back over to 40k if it was popular among the competitive community or something. Treat detachment types as fireteam archetypes, assign the generic secondaries to them, and then do the "sub in faction-specific secondaries into the pool and semi-randomly choose" thing that KT21 does.
I could see bringing over the KT random-from-a-selected-set secondary objective making it back over to 40k if it was popular among the competitive community or something. Treat detachment types as fireteam archetypes, assign the generic secondaries to them, and then do the "sub in faction-specific secondaries into the pool and semi-randomly choose" thing that KT21 does.
see, i think that random element, especially in something like objectives, is something most competitive players would LOATHE with a passion, as it takes control out of their hands, which means more randomness they need to account for in list building, and they'd much prefer to choose them so they can build towards a subset of the total they can be good at, like in 40K.
but im not a competitive-level player, maybe im wrong in that regard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 16:35:04
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
Albertorius wrote: Funny how people refer to this edition as "KT2" given this is like the fifth iteration of Kill Team... It's not even the second standalone edition, FFS, I have two standalone KT edition boxes at home already.
Each seems to be like almost twice the price of fhe previous, too...
I only count 4? There was the KT rules included in 4th edition 40k (which I'm sad that they never really seemed to revisit that concept, the asymmetric approach where one player played a kill team and the other a team of sentries was interesting), Kill Team 2016, Kill Team 2018 (the "current" edition, I think technically considered the 2nd edition of the 2016 rules), and Kill Team 2021 (the "new" edition, technically considered the 3rd edition of the 2016 rules).
Other than that, theres Shadow War Armageddon which isn't technically Kill Team - spiritually it could be seen as an equivalent to Kill Team, mechanically its a successor to the original Necromunda.
There were at least two different KT ruleset versions released via WD, IIRC. 200 points, no vehicles with more armor than a Rhino, no termie armor... that kinda thing.
This new one is the third box edition (this one, the admech-gsc one and the tau-marines one), so adding the two WD editions it would be the 5th.
Huh, interesting. I wouldn't count the 5th edition Kill Team though, that was less a game and more of a special mission/scenario. I don't remember the 6th edition Kill Team at all, I could only find one reference to it on BGG and thats about it, doesn't seem to have made an impact, looks like it may have snuck in under the radar.
The WD one you're referring to though I think was actually combat patrol/40k in 40 minutes, rather than Kill Team. Similar concept, but scaled up a bit. The rhino armor limit and termie armor ban are both specifically rules that were used in Combat Patrol/40k In 40 Min
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
chaos0xomega wrote: The WD one you're referring to though I think was actually combat patrol/40k in 40 minutes, rather than Kill Team. Similar concept, but scaled up a bit. The rhino armor limit and termie armor ban are both specifically rules that were used in Combat Patrol/40k In 40 Min
Might very well be the case, all these things kinda blur together after a while ^^
SamusDrake wrote: Not familar with the even older editions of Kill Team, but weren't they reliant on 40K rule books or codices whereas KT'18 was the first edition where it became a separate game altogether?
If so, could that be why many are referring to KT'18 as the first edition?
The first box had the 40k rulebook too, but you still needed the units. By that metric, yes, the previous box would be the first stand alone one. But it was still also a modded game of 40k, so...
Is this then the true first edition of Kill Team, seeing as it's actually a different game now?
Cheers for clearing that up.
As to your second question...depends how you look at it. I would say no but would at least credit it with being a mile stone for the game due to having a complete re-write of the rules. Obviously I haven't played it as its not out yet but from what I've seen so far its still a tournament gateway game with not much else to recommend, and Necromunda still being the better option for narrative campaigns and even a bit of solo play( minimal as it is ).
And to answer the unasked question; I too thought it was odd when KT'18 was referred to as the first edition, and would rather it remain but one edition of many that came before it.
I haven't been following the Kill Team previews recently but just caught up today. Looking forward to playing as Kommandos when it releases and looks like the Guard have some fun options too.
The new missions previewed today look fun and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some of these get ported to 40k at some point. Looking forward to trying them out.
Tokhuah wrote: I would like to not see a 40k game between Orks and Kreig played with individual model activation.
Seriously, I understand coveting the models because they are awesome but why buy a boardgame that you know is designed poorly and costs too much?
If you'd rather skip buying the box, that's cool. Nobody is forcing you. There will be plenty opportunities for getting just the miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 19:13:35
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
I could see bringing over the KT random-from-a-selected-set secondary objective making it back over to 40k if it was popular among the competitive community or something. Treat detachment types as fireteam archetypes, assign the generic secondaries to them, and then do the "sub in faction-specific secondaries into the pool and semi-randomly choose" thing that KT21 does.
see, i think that random element, especially in something like objectives, is something most competitive players would LOATHE with a passion, as it takes control out of their hands, which means more randomness they need to account for in list building, and they'd much prefer to choose them so they can build towards a subset of the total they can be good at, like in 40K.
but im not a competitive-level player, maybe im wrong in that regard.
Nah, I was just writing off-the-cuff, and that was just the first example of easy to encapsulate subsegment of the player base that came to mind. So that wasn't meant to imply that I thought competitive players would actually like it.
Though, some might. There's strong appeal to it, as it does introduce a lot more variety. The competitive scene currently rewards people who can minimize the randomness so that they can have a detailed game plan and hew closely to it with little variation in approach or outcome. Their philosophy is definitely to practice, practice, practice, and engineer the situation to play out as closely to what you've practiced and analyzed and experimented with via repitition as possible. And that's definitely a type of skill and dedication, and it's not wrong to reward it.
But there's another type of skill out there, one of analyzing new situations effectively and quickly, and adapting to what the game and your opponent throw at you. And it's not wrong to reward that, either. This kind of player would thrive under the randomized secondaries format, by being able to assess what secondaries will be most accomplishable against their specific opponent, and what they can multitask best along with the main mission objectives.
To borrow another game as an example, I'd liken it to the difference between M:tG constructed formats and draft formats. They're both perfectly valid ways to play, and they both can be quite competitive, but they draw different types of player (obviously with some overlap) and just because you're good at one doesn't make you good at the other. Kill Team '21 secondary randomness is the draft format of Kill Team.
Honestly, I'm expecting to rather like it. It's smartly designed and a lot easier to swallow in that not only do you exert control over what secondaries go into your 6 cards (though your options are limited by the game, it feels to me like a kind of creative constraint in that it invites you to work within the limitations to succeed) by choosing which and how many of the 6 Archetype-specific cards to swap out for which Faction specific cards to form your Tac Ops pool. Then, you get the game-time control of choosing each from 2. That's a good mix of control (so I feel like I can put my thumb on the scale) and randomness (to introduce variety so I don't just walk into the tournament with a game plan already in mind and have no surprises, or to make this tournament feel different from the next without forcing new mission packs faster than they can be playtested just to keep the meta fresh) for me to challenge my ability to assess and adapt, as well as my ability to practice a game plan.
TL;DR: It's probably fairest to say that a majority of the *currently* successful competitive players will hate it. But best case, it might inspire/reveal a new wave of top players who love it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 21:45:49
Seems despite having lots of options, the Krieger kit is as set as other modern GW plastics. That's a damned shame. And the various circle, triangle, square measurement nonsense is really just a substitute for numbers, making the whole process a waste of time.
tauist wrote: I'm not going to defend GW's prices, but I don't really compare these two editions to each other. It's quite clear KT2 was a much more labour intensive task for the devs than KT1, which was mostly a copy/paste job from the 40K material of that time, dataslates included.
Also, you need to consider that while KT1 was meant as an entry point into 40K proper, KT2 seems more like it's own independent thing this time. It's targeted more towards skirmish fans who would never get into 40K proper in the first place. To me, this is GW's version of Xcom.
Absolutely. A lazy effort to make a 40k lite entry point into the actual game selling for $40 in rules is one thing, but you can't expect that same price point for a completely new effort that actually delivers a much more mature and mechanically sound skirmish game.
tauist wrote: I like the fact that all factions get their datasheets simultaneously. I hear many 40K players begging GW to do a similar thing with the bigger game, yet when they do it for KT2 it's suddenly a terrible idea??!
Yeah, the cardinal sin here is clearly not doing the obviously logistically impossible pipe-dream of 40k players where every one of the 20+ factions gets a codex of only their rules, in full detail relative to the edition before it, released simultaneously with the new edition; and make it well balanced, perfectly edited, and extensively playtested while you're at it.
I'm pretty happy to see the compendium. $50 for nearly 200 models' rules is a steak, and given that Kill Team is the one place in the hobby where I can entertain the notion of actually starting new factions just to paint some models I like, or to explore new ground, etc, without dropping several hundred dollars and months of my hobby time to paint up a new army, having all the rules for potential new factions to digest and plan is of great value to me, unlike in 40k where I'm nearly monogamous by necessity.
I'm afraid the compendium is the index thing all over again. A temporary band aid until they can get out books for every team. GW loves its books and codexes why wouldn't they use this as an opportunity the same as every other product they make.
As far as skirmishes go, necromunda is also a GW skirmish game with decent overall rules... it is the pure amount of books needed to play it that ruined that game.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
