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skrulnik wrote:Why is GW the only company where economy of scale doesn't apply to the customer price?

Not to defend the greed of any company at all, but perhaps you've yet to meet the oil industry?

Though yes, if they expect me to play this I'm waiting for the starter box and its (comparatively) affordable rulebook.

Oh, and BTW, Warmachine Prime MkII softcover is $30, HC is $45(? I guess, Warstore isn't listing it).

To steal from D6G's Russ, and its in full color, and has rules for 4 factions of models.

Apologies. I am just trying to illustrate the differences that matter to me.

How thick the book is doesn't matter.
How much is rules I will use in normal games?
99% of the time for 40k I use the little book. The rest I don't need.

War of the Ring is a great book for $60. But the rules are only about 80 pages.
The majority of the remaining pages are the army lists.
Its been said that the WHFB bigbook will not contain lists. So how do you fill ~350 more pages?

I really don't want to open a 500+page tome and accidentally crush one of my units.
And pay $75 for the privilege.


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Neconilis wrote:

skrulnik wrote:Why is GW the only company where economy of scale doesn't apply to the customer price?

Not to defend the greed of any company at all, but perhaps you've yet to meet the oil industry?

Though yes, if they expect me to play this I'm waiting for the starter box and its (comparatively) affordable rulebook.

When we in the U.S. pay what the rest of the world does for gas, I will agree with you. But I don't really want to go OT.

Back on subject.
Is there word on what the vast majority of the book is? Current rules only take up what, 125 pages?
What's in the rest of the book?

I really don't want to delve through the many pages of speculation to find out.

My flgs was told by GW to expect the rule book to be between £45 and £50 (that was as of this Monday, 7th).
Mick

Someone debunked the price for the rulebook from that one page w/ the dividers, dice, markers, magic cards, etc and it was $73 USD (so probably 75-80 dollars)

Mick A wrote:My flgs was told by GW to expect the rule book to be between £45 and £50 (that was as of this Monday, 7th).
Mick

Yeah, I believe it's £45 for the book.

@Reds8n

Models can take an armour save AND a ward save.
Models can take an armour save AND a regeneration save.
Models cannot take a ward save AND regeneration.

This is highly likely now.

Sounds about right.

Units lose or don't get rank benefits when they fight in woods, except skirmishers who still do IIRC.

Volley fire so a thrid rankcan fire if they don't move (not even reform) is true, but this isn't allowed as a charge reaction I think.

The tower is "Fozzicks Fortress" or something, kind of handy.

Most of the LOS rules seemed very similar to the 40K ones -- ie not to wings, banners "so not penalised for an impressive base" etc etc.

How detailed is the actual rules part on how to use TLOS in game? It is abstracted off bases?

Do you happen to know if forests provide a generic soft cover save if there is a single tree in the way?

Another thing I am not sure whether to put in my update is that I'm hearing that because unit strength is gone, single models can cause panic tests...

I really don't want to open a 500+page tome and accidentally crush one of my units.
And pay $75 for the privilege.

That made me laugh but I think I might enjoy all the fluff thats hopefully in the new book and that the plots actually moved forward.

You know, the plot never advances in historical games, and players don't complain about settings getting stale as so many claim with 40k/FB.

I think it is in how you look at it. For me, the current year of the game world is irrelevant.

There is a couple thousand years in FB and nearly 10,000 in 40k for you to have the game take place and it won't matter to the armies involved.
Half the Named Characters seem to be dead anyway. So if you have one in your game, you are not playing current timeline.

Te setting is merely a backdrop, a frame of reference for the battle you fight. The world/universe HAS to be on the brink of something big at all times.

Otherwise one army or another, because of the story, has to be weaker. And nobody wants to be the weak.

How else do you keep a balance of power where all the armies have a chance at fighting each other?

Scottywan82 wrote:No, but I wouldn't babble on like a prat about how I will "Never play one game with these rules" or whatever other nonsense thing he said. If you don't like the rules, I would imagine you should sell your army and stop posting here. Spare us your faux-martyrdom.

Not playing with new rules could still mean playing with the old rules, éh McFly

Now I don't know what exactly a "prat" is, but I would imagine you let people decide for themselves what they are or aren't going to do. If I need you to enlighten us with punk-arse responses to our opinions I will flush the toilet a couple of times to let you know you are summoned, alright?

I'm guessing it has:
150 pages of (cumpulsory) rules.
Say another 25 pages of optional rules (allied forces, campaigns etc)
Another 30 pages of scenarios.
60 pages of army background.
30 pages of full page art.
30 pages of 'eavy metal/ collecting GW models/ building armies and terrain.
10 pages of FAQ.
200 apprx. pages of stories.

The only one I know for certain is that each army has 4 pages of background.

Chaos Dwarfs are only snippets throughout.

if a minibook doesn't come

The mini rule book has already been printed. It's what the store employees have been using to learn the rules for the past few weeks in preparation for the preview to customers starting on June 15.

LGS here is taking preorders at $74.95 USD. They've talked with GW and there was something goofy about them shipping it 2day on Monday because they were afraid if they shipped it on Friday it'd be there too soon - and GASP we'd be able to scan the entire book and have it up on the net on the 14th!!! (That's a joke FYI - I can't imagine scanning that many pages). So anyways *we* may not actually see it till Wednesday. I'm sure most GW stores will have it on Tuesday.

Maybe so. But the local GW here is now closed Mon and Tues. I thought that was the new schedule for everybody

reds8n wrote:Sounds about right.

Units lose or don't get rank benefits when they fight in woods, except skirmishers who still do IIRC.

Volley fire so a thrid rankcan fire if they don't move (not even reform) is true, but this isn't allowed as a charge reaction I think.

The tower is "Fozzicks Fortress" or something, kind of handy.

Most of the LOS rules seemed very similar to the 40K ones -- ie not to wings, banners "so not penalised for an impressive base" etc etc.

If I recall, skirmishers get another +1 CR in woods, as well.
Volley fire is for bows, and gives half of the ranks past 2. So if 6 wide, 3 ranks=15, 4 ranks =18 etc.
Tower is a 100 pt magic item, set up in your deployment zone, either being the Warhammer Watchtower, or a piece of scenery roughly the same size.




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Xizindar wrote:LGS here is taking preorders at $74.95 USD. They've talked with GW and there was something goofy about them shipping it 2day on Monday because they were afraid if they shipped it on Friday it'd be there too soon - and GASP we'd be able to scan the entire book and have it up on the net on the 14th!!! (That's a joke FYI - I can't imagine scanning that many pages). So anyways *we* may not actually see it till Wednesday. I'm sure most GW stores will have it on Tuesday.

I was told by my rep that they 'Guaranteed' I'd have it by the 15th. Crossing my fingers.


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skrulnik wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Who's expecting this to be $75-$79 US when they announce the price in another week?

I absolutely expect it. Current rulebook is 57.00, and this new one is nearly twice as big. I'm going for a double hernia on July 10th. The first from packing in crates of the new book, and the second from having to lug those big sacks of money to the bank! Ka-Ching!

Yeah. $75 for a rulebook. Are you kidding me!
I forsee a good chunk of players waiting until the starter minibook comes.
And if a minibook doesn't come, a resounding THUD as WHFB trips over its rulebook.
The GW rulebooks are already overpriced.
Look at the book for Black Powder.
Its a small run from an up and coming company (Warlord), and it is $44.
Why is GW the only company where economy of scale doesn't apply to the customer price?

Black Powder is a nice book, but not even half the size of the new WFB book. Warlord is sort of 'up and coming' and sort of 'run by John Stollard who can just call up the same people printing GW's books and get the same price'.)

I forsee a lot of griping, and a long line of people paying for the book at 12:01am for the midnight release at my store. GW's books have been getting more expensive, no arguement. But I also think they got better. The last 40k HC was very nice with some excellent pieces of artwork.

I was anxiously waiting for my FLGS to get the book in today. I called the local GW store and heard that they have it, but aren't showing it to customers until Tuesday. In talking with my guy at the FLGS, he called GW and found out that independent retailers aren't getting their copies until Monday.

@skrulnik

You drop your 20lb book on a unit:

Models can take an armour save AND a ward save versus the book.
Models can take an armour save AND a regeneration save versus the book.
Models cannot take a ward save AND regeneration versus the book.

Depending on the unit only 4 or 5 are broken if they make their saves.

Grimstonefire wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs are only snippets throughout.

you just ruined my life...

why dont they bring them back!?!!? and new edition is a perfect time!

Am I missing something here? I thought it was released on 10th July? I can understand GW getting copies to show punters but it sounds like independant shops are getting theirs as well (not that I'm compaining, just confused...)

Mick

If the rulebook is of high quality (at 500 pages I'm a bit worried about the binding) I don't see anything wrong with paying more for it.

If you want just the rules, get the minrulebook.

GW, remember, are still about the models - hence they make sure the HOBBY part of the hobby is catered for.

I've seen the book and it is pretty. Very, very pretty.

My local store were playin preview games today

Mick A wrote:Am I missing something here? I thought it was released on 10th July? I can understand GW getting copies to show punters but it sounds like independant shops are getting theirs as well (not that I'm compaining, just confused...)

Mick

Speaking only from the US side:

GW store managers have the softcover minirulebook for the last couple of weeks. Probably have a HC coming in to show off on Tuesday the 15th.

Most of the larger independent accounts have a HC copy in the mail. I've been staring at the tracking on mine every 30 seconds in a vain attempt to speed it up. We will get them monday/tuesday. Mine says 'arriving tuesday'.

As of the 15th, all stores can show people the book. Information will go up on the GW websites about the HC book, and some spiffy edition sets with both SC and HC, and you can pre-order off the websites and at GW or independent stores.

September the starter set with SC rulebook will be out.

Cheers mikhaila

Mick

My latest update, which I will try and update the first post with tommorow.


Alliances: There are 4 different options;

Blood Brothers: These are 2 or more armies from the same army book. Characters can join units from the other army, can benefit from the other army’s BSB/ General, but they can cause panic in units from the other army.

Stable Alliance: These are 2 or more armies from within the same faction (e.g. 2 from Forces of Order, or 2 from Forces of Destruction). Characters cannot join units of the other army, cannot benefit from the other army’s BSB/ General, but they can cause panic in units from the other army. Units from each army can benefit from the other army though, for instance, using the Shield of Saphery on a Dwarf army, and being moved by the Anvil in return.

Fragile Alliance: These are either a Stable Alliance that includes Dark Elves or Skaven, or an alliance between armies from the Forces of Order and Forces of Destruction. The can benefit each other as with a Stable Alliance, but they do not cause panic tests in the other army. If they are forced to flee through each other the stationary unit counts as Dangerous Terrain (see below in terrain).

Neutral Alliance: An alliance that has one army from the Neutral Forces (Ogres and TK). These armies cannot benefit from each other and do not cause panic tests in the other army.

Chaos Dwarfs have a few snippets through the book only.

Failed Charge
• You move the highest of the D6 you rolled to charge (+ basic movement I think).

Sidestep
• Basic Movement divided by 2 (rounding up) to move laterally or backwards.

Dwarfs still get +2 dispel dice.

Lost Control Chart

The loss of Control table is 2D6.
• 2-4: Strength 10 large template over the wizard. Then on a 1-2 the wizard is removed from play, 3+ you lose D6 power dice.
5-6: Strength 10 small template over the wizard. Lose D6 power dice
7: Lose D6 power dice, Strength 10 hit on everyone in base contact with the wizard (NOT the wizard)
8-9: Strength 6 hit on every caster on your side, lose D6 power dice
10-12: Wizard loses D3 levels & random spells for each of them.
Bound Spells may be duplicated in an army

• Hex: Modify enemy stats and/or equipment. May be cast into combat.
• Augmentation (Buffs): Support your own troops. May be cast into combat, and may be cast on units not in your 90 degree arc of sight.

Lore of Fire

Basic Spell: Fireball: Magic Missile
D6 S4 hits 24" range
2D6 S5 hits 36" range
3D6 S6 hits 48" range

1 Cascading Fireshield Remains in Play, Caster and Unit Buff. At the end of each magic phase, any enemy unit in contact with the caster and his unit suffers 2d6 hits S4.

2 Flaming Sword(s) of Rhuin: Unit Buff. 24" range. Grants +1 to wound and magical flaming attacks.

3. Flaming Skull: Direct damage. Draw 18" line from the caster in any direction within the 90 degree arc of sight. Each model touched by the line (determine who's hit like you would do with a cannon ball) suffers a S4 flaming hit. All units that take at least 1 casualty have to take a panic test.

4. Fiery Arrows: Magic Missile. 24" range. Targeted unit suffers D3 S4 hits for each rank of 5 or more models. The scaled up version is 36" range.

5. Blazing cage Hex. 24" range. Targeted enemy unit suffers D6 S4 hits. If the unit moves by any means, each model suffers another S4 hit and the spell ends. The scaled up version has an increased range.

6. Firestorm: Direct Damage. Place the small template within 30" of the caster, It then scatters D6" and causes str 4 hits. The scaled up version uses the large template but scatters 2d6".


Lore of Metal

(name): Direct Damage. Every model in the target unit is killed and turned to gold on a D6 roll of 5+ (multi-wound models on a 6+). Friendly units within 12” are subject to stupidity until the next magic phase as they are distracted by all the gold.

Lore of Beasts

Special Bonus: If targeted on cavalry, beasts, monstrous cavalry, monstrous beasts (razorgor, giant eagles etc), chariots, Monsters, or any unit from WA: Beastmen, the wizard gains an additional + 1 to cast.

(name): Unit Buff. +1 Strength and Toughness

Curse of Anraheir Caster Buff. +3 strength and +3 Attacks

Amber spear. Magic Missile. As Hunter's Spear.


Lore of Light

Special Bonus: If targeted on a undead or daemonic unit, spells from the lore of light deal an additional D6 hits.

• Basic Spell: Ray of Light: Magic Missile. D6 S4 hits to a unit within 24", causing flaming attacks. The scaled up version has an increased range and strength.

Blinding Light: Unit Buff. Affects one friendly unit within 12", all to hit rolls against this unit have a -1 modifier. All auto-attacks or auto-hits have to roll a 4+ or are wasted. May be extended to all units in 12"

As fast as Light: Unit Buff. Choose one unit within 24". It has Weapon Skill 10 and Initiative 10.

Beacon of Hope: Unit Buff. Rally 1 fleeing unit. Targeted unit automatically passes all Leadership tests until casters next magic phase.

Amynotoks Web: Hex. Targeted enemy unit has to pass a Strength test for each action they want to take (move, shoot, cast spells, pursue, flee, strike in cc, etc.) If they fail they may not perform the intended action and suffer D6 S4 hits instead. Lasts until casters next magic phase.

Exorcism: Direct Damage. Deals 2D6 S4 hits, against which all successful Ward saves must be re-rolled. For each wizard other than the caster using the lore of light within 12", the strength is increased by 1.

Temporal Warp: Unit Buff. Targeted friendly unit doubles its movement characteristic, increases its Attacks by 1 and gains the ASF special rule until casters next magic phase. The scaled up version is for all friendly units within 12"


Lore of Death - The Wind of Shyish

Special Bonus: For each casualty caused by lore of death spells, roll a D6. On a roll of 5+ you are granted an additional power dice.


Basic Spell: Soulsteal. Direct damage, 12" range. Nominate a model. Caster and Target roll 1D6 and add their unmodified leadership. For each point the caster's result exceeds the targets result it suffers 1 wound with no armour save allowed. The scaled up version has an increased range.

1: Face of the Reaper. Unit Buff, 24 " range. Targeted unit causes fear. Caster may decide to make it cause Terror for a higher casting value.

2: Embrace of Laniph. Direct damage, 12 " range. Nominate 1 target model. Roll 2D6 and subtract the target's Strength. The result equals the number of hits the target takes, wounding on 4+ and ignoring armour saves. The scaled up version has an increased range.

3: Soulrot. Hex, 24 " range. Targeted unit suffers a -1 strength and toughness. The scaled up version is ALL enemy units within 24 inches. Lasts 1 turn.

4: Dark Despair. Hex. Remains in play, 24 " range. Targetted unit suffers -3 Leadership. The scaled up version has an increased range.

5: Bajuna's Fate. Direct damage, 12 " range. Nominate 1 model. Roll 2D6 and substract the target's toughness. The result equals the number of hits the target suffers, wounding on 2+ and ignoring Armour saves. Should the target survive, it suffers stupidity for the rest of the game.

6: The Purple Sun of Xereus. Power Whirl, Remains in Play. Place the small template in base contact with the caster and roll the artillery dice. Multiply result by 3. The result is the number of inches the template moves. Each model touched by the template, except for the wizard himself, has to pass an Initiative test or is removed from play. No saves are allowed. If you roll a misfire, place the template above the caster himself, roll a scatter dice and 1D6. The result is the number of inches the template is moved away from the caster.

The template moves at the end of each following magic phase, roll the artillery dice and a scatter dice to determine direction and range. If you roll a misfire the template is removed. The scaled up version uses the 5 " template instead.



Monstrous Infantry can fight with a maximum of 3 attacks per model in the second rank, then one per model in subsequent ranks.

Units with stupidity may not Parry.

If Infantry models are armed with a combat weapon other than a hand weapon, you have to use it.

WEAPONS

Some of the magic weapons can be Paired with another magic weapon, or a mundane weapon. I will try and keep them clearly labelled.

(name). Magic sword that gives the wielder Frenzy that can never be lost.
(name). A Paired magic sword that gives weapon Skill 10.

ARMOUR
(name) 4+ ward save.
(name) Heavy armour and a 4+ ward
(name) Armour and a 5+ ward (not sure if light or heavy)
(name) 2+ save against breath weapons.
Shield of Ptolos. Shield. 1+ save against all shooting attacks.
Enchanted Shield. Shield. Same
(name). Shield. Allows you to disregard the first hit caused on the character on a 2+.

ENCHANTED ITEMS
Wizards Hat. Makes the wearer a Level 2 wizard with stupidity & rolls randomly for lore.
Arabian Carpet. The user can Fly.
Healing Potion. Restores D6 wounds to the character carrying it.
Other Trickster's Shard. Models in base contact (friend of Foe) reroll successful ward saves.
Crown of command.. Makes the bearer Stubborn
Mask of Eeeeee!. Makes the wearer cause terror.

ARCANE ITEMS
Frog Scroll (?). Used as a dispel scroll. One use only. The wizard must roll equal to or under their wizard level to keep the backlash in check, or they are turned into a frog, then in each of their subsequent turns they must roll a 4+ to come back into play.

The frog has no stats, so they cannot cast/ move/ be shot at/ killed etc. In fact they have nothing at all they can do until they turn back into a wizard!
Trickster's Shard

Watch Tower
• New rules to storm the building: Max 10 infantry fighting their way up.

Battle: Army Fraction
Work out the Army Value first:

Each unit standard is worth 1.
Battle Standard Bearer is worth 1
General is worth 2.

Then work out the minimum Army Value. 1 for each 1000pts (i.e. 4000pts = a minimum Army Value of 4).

The first army to drop below its minimum Army Value loses.

Battle: Attack at Dawn
The battlefield is split into zones and units are placed randomly within them.

Scenario: Something with a warhammer scale Dwarf airship...

Shooting through a forest has a -1 to hit modifier

The army value sounds like a BS, considering there was a scan from the new WHFB rulebook (by GW, no less) that has a reference to using Victory Points. You couldn't use victory points to win if you automatically lose via Army Value, unless it's only for specific missions.

Though I can imagine some horribly inane rule saying a WHFB army must meet at least a certain amount of points, such as Skaven or Orcs & Goblins needing at least ten points at the start of a 2K point game or something. Because, you know, the armies should be HUGE, so you should have to take at least five blocks of infantry with standards for a 2K point game See? Skaven are skaveny, they have lots of numbers!

I'm not liking some of those magical effects. Specifically the whole "Lore of Light becomes default for many armies" and "Purple Sun gibs entire regiments in single turn".

I've edited my post above with the new lores of fire and death.

The army values thing is one specific battle out of 6.

To me, Bajuna's Fate and Purple Sun of Xereus look to be the only really useful Death spells. Bajuna's is a character killer, Purple Sun a unit killer.

Grimstonefire wrote:The army values thing is one specific battle

Ah, alright. I apologize for misrea-

Grimstonefire wrote: out of 6.

The 6th Edition Rulebook had nine at only 288 pages. Heck, it then had 18 pages of Siege rules and seven pages of terrain generation (each to represent a different part of the Old World) to boot. They can only fit six scenarios in this book? Six?

Casting values are very high on those level 6 spells, and if I'm recalling correctly, if you fail to cast, that caster is done for the round. Magic looks very potent, but you have less control over the dice you have to cast, penalties if you fail to cast, and a whopping huge one if you do roll double 6's for total power.

As a whole, we need to wait and see how it all fits together.