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Seems Armourbane means any Glances become Penetrating.


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 Rihgu wrote:
A full 10 man lascannon squad just barely ekes out 3 pens (4+, due to armourbane), doing 6 damage.

A 5 man melta squad gets 1 pen on average, doing 6 damage.

Assuming the delivery method/meltas themselves don't make the 5 man squad more expensive than the 10 man squad, the meltas are more efficient (but vulnerable to invulnerable saves messing up the one damaging hit)

You’ve not factored in that the Lascannons have significantly greater range, and so stand to average more shots during a battle. If they target something and don’t kill it? They may well be outside of immediate reprisal range. And even if they only shoot say, three times in a battle? Every volley has a fair chance of deleting something the enemy would rather wasn’t deleted. And a 10 man squad can do vile things to other Marines. 5 Meltas, less so.

Meltaguns however need to get within 6” to be really deadly. Now, getting in that range entirely aside? If they whiff it, they’re worryingly close to something quite possibly a bit miffed with them. Even if they do the job, at such short ranges that thing might well have mates ready to duff up the Meltaguns.

The range on Lascannons (48”) also means they can threaten more of the board, turn to turn. If I can get them up high somewhere, with a solid LoS? Their sheer presence can strongly discourage certain lines of approach for my opponent until they’ve been taken out. Meltaguns typically need to go ambush hunting, either tearing around in a transport, or dropping in via Pod exactly where your opponent didn’t want them. And on the latter, are prone to be taken out in the opponent’s next turn - a turnabout sacrifice that only really makes sense if my opponent has a valuable enough target for them to knack in the first place.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, Dreads aren’t vehicles, just Really big Infantry.

Melta is gonna be nasty now, as it’s a reliable way to pop tanks in a single shot. Whereas even Lascannons (based on stationary infantry) are only doing D2 per penetrating hit.

Heck, I expect Combi-meltas to be a common weapon for unit leaders where available.

The lascannon is armourbane though, so it will do 4 Damage against a vehicle.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, Dreads aren’t vehicles, just Really big Infantry.

Melta is gonna be nasty now, as it’s a reliable way to pop tanks in a single shot. Whereas even Lascannons (based on stationary infantry) are only doing D2 per penetrating hit.

Heck, I expect Combi-meltas to be a common weapon for unit leaders where available.

The lascannon is armourbane though, so it will do 4 Damage against a vehicle.

Armourbane doesn't deal double damage.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Piousservant wrote:
Don't think meltas are going to be quite as problematic as suggested, given they seem to be losing the bonus to armour penetration

The weapons article says they still get Armourbane in addition to the doubled damage at Melta range.

I read it that the melta range means you get armourbane in that range, and armourbane doubles damage.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Piousservant wrote:
Don't think meltas are going to be quite as problematic as suggested, given they seem to be losing the bonus to armour penetration

The weapons article says they still get Armourbane in addition to the doubled damage at Melta range.

I read it that the melta range means you get armourbane in that range, and armourbane doubles damage.

Nah the armour bane rule is specifically glances become pens in the rulebook leaks.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Piousservant wrote:
Don't think meltas are going to be quite as problematic as suggested, given they seem to be losing the bonus to armour penetration

The weapons article says they still get Armourbane in addition to the doubled damage at Melta range.

I read it that the melta range means you get armourbane in that range, and armourbane doubles damage.

You read it wrong. Melta gives you Armourbane(Glances become Pens) and double damage.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, Dreads aren’t vehicles, just Really big Infantry.

Melta is gonna be nasty now, as it’s a reliable way to pop tanks in a single shot. Whereas even Lascannons (based on stationary infantry) are only doing D2 per penetrating hit.

Heck, I expect Combi-meltas to be a common weapon for unit leaders where available.

The lascannon is armourbane though, so it will do 4 Damage against a vehicle.

Armourbane doesn't deal double damage.

Warcom says: melta grants armourbane within 6 and doubles damage.

I guess you could read the "and" in different ways but I read it as armourbane giving you the double damage. Could be wrong of course.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, Dreads aren’t vehicles, just Really big Infantry.

Melta is gonna be nasty now, as it’s a reliable way to pop tanks in a single shot. Whereas even Lascannons (based on stationary infantry) are only doing D2 per penetrating hit.

Heck, I expect Combi-meltas to be a common weapon for unit leaders where available.

The lascannon is armourbane though, so it will do 4 Damage against a vehicle.

Armourbane doesn't deal double damage.

Warcom says: melta grants armourbane within 6 and doubles damage.

I guess you could read the "and" in different ways but I read it as armourbane giving you the double damage. Could be wrong of course.

Again, you are. We know for sure because the leaks show us what Armourbane does(Glance becomes Pen).

I see where you’re coming from. But the “and”…

Armourbane within 6” and doubles damage to a mighty six

So it’s delineating two, separate benefits.

Didn't look at the leaks and relied on warcom namedropping special rules without explaining them, so, sorry I guess

I’m very interested to see the spread of Hull Points going forward.

We can make some extrapolation.

A Predator is a light-medium tank, and of course has 5. Whereas a Standard Knight, definitely a Super Heavy, has 10.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Landraiders have 7 you know, being noticeably tougher and bigger than a Predator.

Ooooh. Am I going daft, or has this boosted Speeders some? I don’t expect them to be terribly tough, but with glancing them to death being somewhat trickier maybe it’s the boost they need?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seems Armourbane means any Glances become Penetrating.


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 Rihgu wrote:
A full 10 man lascannon squad just barely ekes out 3 pens (4+, due to armourbane), doing 6 damage.

A 5 man melta squad gets 1 pen on average, doing 6 damage.

Assuming the delivery method/meltas themselves don't make the 5 man squad more expensive than the 10 man squad, the meltas are more efficient (but vulnerable to invulnerable saves messing up the one damaging hit)

...Snip...

No, all that stuff I "didn't factor in" was rolled up into the comment about the delivery method.

Warcom says: melta grants armourbane within 6 and doubles damage.

I guess you could read the "and" in different ways but I read it as armourbane giving you the double damage. Could be wrong of course.

I have seen so many people say something to this tune but never in my life as a primary English speaking person have I heard the term "and" to mean "which", which this reading requires it to be. Is this a UK vs US English thing? I am a US English speaker. (this is not specifically directed at SgtCortez as I see the German flag on the profile. I've noticed in among a wide variety of people, including my own play group, anyways)

As a US English speaker, I have seen "and" mean "which", but always with a qualifier that turns it into that meaning.

 Rihgu wrote:

I have seen so many people say something to this tune but never in my life as a primary English speaking person have I heard the term "and" to mean "which", which this reading requires it to be. Is this a UK vs US English thing? I am a US English speaker. (this is not specifically directed at SgtCortez as I see the German flag on the profile. I've noticed in among a wide variety of people, including my own play group, anyways)

I'm certain I've seen it phrased that way in literature and before the leaks I wondered which reading was correct myself. I believe it can be used to denote direct consequence:

He shot and killed her.

It has Armourbane and (because of that) doubles its Damage.

Since the leaks obviously we know it's just a regular and that is listing multiple effects.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:

I have seen so many people say something to this tune but never in my life as a primary English speaking person have I heard the term "and" to mean "which", which this reading requires it to be. Is this a UK vs US English thing? I am a US English speaker. (this is not specifically directed at SgtCortez as I see the German flag on the profile. I've noticed in among a wide variety of people, including my own play group, anyways)

I'm certain I've seen it phrased that way in literature and before the leaks I wondered which reading was correct myself. I believe it can be used to denote direct consequence:

He shot and killed her.

It has Armourbane and (because of that) doubles its Damage.

Since the leaks obviously we know it's just a regular and that is listing multiple effects.

Armourbane and because of melta doubles its damage as a minor correction.

 Rihgu wrote:

I have seen so many people say something to this tune but never in my life as a primary English speaking person have I heard the term "and" to mean "which", which this reading requires it to be. Is this a UK vs US English thing? I am a US English speaker. (this is not specifically directed at SgtCortez as I see the German flag on the profile. I've noticed in among a wide variety of people, including my own play group, anyways)

"You can open the door and let everyone in."

Both the "shot and killed" and "open the door and let everyone in" examples are still a list of separate things. "And" still means "and" and not "which" or "because of" or "so" or any of the connectors that describe cause/effect.

Dudeface wrote:


Armourbane and because of melta doubles its damage as a minor correction.

Nope. Look at the Weapon Listing, then read the wording again. The weapon only has Melta listed as a rule/ability, while Lascannons have Armourbane listed. It's clear that the Special Rule Melta confers both the Armourbane and the Double Damage while within 6".

 Rihgu wrote:
Both the "shot and killed" and "open the door and let everyone in" examples are still a list of separate things. "And" still means "and" and not "which" or "because of" or "so" or any of the connectors that describe cause/effect.

Cambridge

Well it’s settled now anyways.

Now I want to see the Dreadnought stats. I’ve a load of the existing types, and intend a brace of Saturnine (not because I’m a beardy git*, but because I love me Dreads, especially the Contemptor chassis).

With tanks being tougher, I’m hoping they’ve tweaked Dreads down just enough - though ranged weapons doing multiple damage may have done that in itself.


*well. I do have a beard. And some of my consumers would consider me a git.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now I want to see the Dreadnought stats.

We know two things

- they are 1 model per slot (no Talons) and 1 slot per detachment; so essentially 1 per HQ or 2 per vanilla Centurion. It will be so funny if they forget to give extra slots to Mortificators.

- Dorito can be one-shotted with a 6 Damage gun

 Platuan4th wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Armourbane and because of melta doubles its damage as a minor correction.

Nope. Look at the Weapon Listing, then read the wording again. The weapon only has Melta listed as a rule/ability, while Lascannons have Armourbane listed. It's clear that the Special Rule Melta confers both the Armourbane and the Double Damage while within 6".

Yes but the comment I was replying to implies it doubles damage because of armourbane, which is incorrect. It doubles damage because of melta which also grants armourbane.

Well, the Crusade FoC can have one by using that Logistical Benefit. But there’s an Auxiliary Detachment of up to 2 Dreadnoughts. And if memory serves, we can have one of those per Command Unit in the main Crusade FoC Detachment.

So, assuming that’s the 3 non-Big HQ only? I can have 7 Dreads. If I read it right, and am remember it right. 9, if Big HQ also allows me an Aux.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, the Crusade FoC can have one by using that Logistical Benefit. But there’s an Auxiliary Detachment of up to 2 Dreadnoughts. And if memory serves, we can have one of those per Command Unit in the main Crusade FoC Detachment.

So, assuming that’s the 3 non-Big HQ only? I can have 7 Dreads. If I read it right, and am remember it right. 9, if Big HQ also allows me an Aux.

I'm afraid Dreads are the only unit type that come in Auxiliary Detachments of one.

Which sounds like the classic GW pendulum - something is OP, so we limit its number, and nerf it, and raise points (personal conjecture)

You’re quite right. Skipped back and checked the imgur link.

High Command also allows an Aux pick. So maximum of 5 Dreadnoughts per Crusade Force Detachment.

Do we know for certain right now if the Crusade Force is the only main detachment for now?


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5 is still plenty for my itch, Spesh as it could be 5 Deredeo, 5 Leviathan, 5 Saturnine etc.

Did I miss something in the article, or did they not mention anything about what happens if you engage that example Predator in melee?

 Dysartes wrote:
Did I miss something in the article, or did they not mention anything about what happens if you engage that example Predator in melee?

Hit rolls in strike group turd layering against rear armour, then penetration test.

Edit: no you didnt miss it, they chose not to mention it for some reason.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re quite right. Skipped back and checked the imgur link.

High Command also allows an Aux pick. So maximum of 5 Dreadnoughts per Crusade Force Detachment.

Do we know for certain right now if the Crusade Force is the only main detachment for now?


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5 is still plenty for my itch, Spesh as it could be 5 Deredeo, 5 Leviathan, 5 Saturnine etc.

But remember that in that case you've got no other slots but the base 4 troops and 4 rhinos, you're probably not getting to 3000 pts.
High Command can pick the Officer Cadre for 2 more Command and another Logistical Benefit


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The most deranged build I've seen so far is something like 6 Centurions and 30 empty Rhinos with multi meltas.

Depends what constitutes troops.

Unless there’s one I’ve not seen, the leaked image doesn’t have anything which screams Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons squads are excluded from Troops.


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Wait. Other than Support.

It’s my turn with reading fails today it seems. In my defence, end of the week and a very trying last day.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wait. Other than Support.

Yea both support squads are in there... and now that they share a slot it's going to be even more crucial to have them be balanced against each other, which failed slightly in 2.0