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ShumaGorath wrote:

MajorWesJanson wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Is the large flying base the only this that makes a flyer a flyer..?

Nope, the Large Oval base does not a flier make. What matters is the cross shaped clear flying stem. Only fliers use those, while other models use the large oval base.

Does the rulebook say that? The white dwarf doesn't.

Really? So the combination of the Flyer rule and the included base rule aren't clear enough?

tuiman wrote:I don't understand why they have replaced Ultramarines as the poster boys of gw, not that I'm complaining.

I think it comes down to the last edition of 40k. Looking at the players starting new SM armies these tend to be either imperial fists or salamanders. Probably people were just feeling a little tired of Ultramarines. I see it as a refreshing move by GW to put another army in the spotlight keeps the game feeling fresh and after all it costs nothing really as the Dark Angels are already pretty mature range and also very similar to that of normal SM so really a plan without drawbacks.

And really i'm sure there will still be no shortage of Ultramarine pictures coverage they are too far ingrained to not get more than their fair share it is just for now that GW should focus on something that may help liven it up for the older gamer.

azazel the cat wrote:

tuiman wrote:I don't understand why they have replaced Ultramarines as the poster boys of gw, not that I'm complaining.

Just to comfirm with the above, the gamers and collectors edition look to be sold out in both Australia and NZ

What do you mean? Calgar is on the left.

New paint set is dark angels, cover of the new rulebook is dark angels, first rumoured loyalist marine codex is dark angels (not vanilla), and also the white dwarf spine image is the dark angel one, not the Calgar one

Apart from possibly the Ghost Ark do any other Xeno flyers benefit from the ability to fire four weapons?

I'm hoping Hive Tyrants might be able to shoot and use psychics.

The prices are so expensive in New Zealand! The normal rule book is NZD146 which translates to USD115. The US GW page is charging USD74.25 for the regular rule book which is NZD94. This is crazy business. It should not be cheaper for other countries. Although I suppose that every product is cheaper for the US people and most likely everyone else in the world that doesnt live in NZ. Sucks to live in NZ.

Another little tidbit. Not sure if this has been said before but this one is about hull points:

All vehicles have them. Glances remove 1. Pens remove 1 but then also roll on the damage chart. No wrecked result but 6's explode. AP1 is +2 on the chart, AP2 is +1.

This time I can't personally confirm but is from a trusted friend.

CappyBen wrote:The prices are so expensive in New Zealand! The normal rule book is NZD146 which translates to USD115. The US GW page is charging USD74.25 for the regular rule book which is NZD94. This is crazy business. It should not be cheaper for other countries. Although I suppose that every product is cheaper for the US people and most likely everyone else in the world that doesnt live in NZ. Sucks to live in NZ.

Worse for Australia! Ours is worth $125 US just for the standard edition!

If GW's have a store copy on display today would someone be kind enough to find out as much info as possible about the ally rules?

Souleater wrote:Apart from possibly the Ghost Ark do any other Xeno flyers benefit from the ability to fire four weapons?

I'm hoping Hive Tyrants might be able to shoot and use psychics.

Uh, the Ghost Ark won't be a flyer, only the night/doom scythe.

Dark Eldar flyers benefit from being able to do a full missile volley, it's actually a significant disadvantage compared to when they just had aerial assault and could do a full missile volley AND their permanent weapon systems.

A thought came over; are there any hints or images of potentially new sculpts in the rulebook?

I'm hoping that there's a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet that will mean this isn't going to be flyerspam like 5th was mechspam. Flyers moving upto 36", shooting upto 4 weapons at BS, only being able to be hit on 6s and unassaultable (except by some units with a special rule no doubt) is really, really powerful.

I'm just hoping that a fair bit of existing weaponry gets FAQ'd to be able to hit these things. Someone earlier mentioned Multi Lasers profile changing. In the leaked 6th ed book, starcannons were listed as S7. Also, the new chariot rule will clearly be given to open topped transports (I'm sure one of the DE transports actually mentions that it's like a chariot). Then there's all the stuff about CC weapons changing. So, there is evidence that models/weapons etc are going to get changed, it just remains to be seen how but unless we get some decent options for anti flyer weaponry, I'm worried that 6th will become all about being able to deal with flyers.

Snufflesms wrote:Worse for Australia! Ours is worth $125 US just for the standard edition!

Yeah but minimum and average wages are a lot higher down there than in the US so I wouldn't complain too much.

With flyers I agree that it's probably going to boil down to what units end up with Skyguard or whatever the anti-air rule is called. I'll probably buy an Aegis line anyway because why wouldn't I for the gunline portion of my Guard? However if I have just one anti-air weapon I easily foresee it getting blown off the board turn 1 and then I get chewed up by a trio of Dakkajets all game.

Speaking of, does the new WD say anything about how the guns bought with the Aegis line work when being shot at? The bastion makes sense, it's probably basically an immobile AV14 vehicle but if the gun with the Aegis line is just a Thunderfire cannon style artillery thing it's going to be pretty fragile.

edit: 6th won't become flyerspam the way 5th was mechspam simply because you can't take that many flyers in the armies that have them. The only legitimate flyerspam army would be Elysians although who knows what the FAQ will do to them.

Another little tidbit. Not sure if this has been said before but this one is about hull points:

All vehicles have them. Glances remove 1. Pens remove 1 but then also roll on the damage chart. No wrecked result but 6's explode. AP1 is +2 on the chart, AP2 is +1.

I'm hoping that there's a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet that will mean this isn't going to be flyerspam like 5th was mechspam.

A Land Raider therefore can survive a maximum of four glances and/or penetrating hits and then it's always a wreck no matter what, but it can still die to a single penetrating hit too if that hit rolls good on the chart. Vehicles are therefore easier to destroy than before. They have wounds, but can still also suffer a form of instant death...

Every other vehicle than flyers that is, because they can't be hit properly with guns and they can't be assaulted at all! That this leads to armies cramming in as many flyers as they can is a no-brainer. I know my Necrons will drop all other vehicles in favour of Night and Doom Scythes. CCBs are probably still too good to drop because they can keep moving flat out and having the cover save, despite not actually being flyers. Nevertheless this really puts a dent in many vehicle lists. Any 3 glances and/or penetrating hits and your Dreadnought is dead automatically.

If you don't think the theoreticals are easy to understand just put it into examples. A Dreadnought has 3 hull points and AV12. It's shot by a single Night Scythe. The average math result is slightly under 1 glance and 1 penetrate. Now you roll on the chart and it blows up on a 6 or might lose a weapon etc, but it also lost 2 'wounds'. Now, five Necron Warriors rapid fire at it, shooting 10 times, hitting 6.6 times, and glancing once therefore killing it.

That wasn't hard. Next target. This is a nerf to vehicles and an indirect buff to monsters.

I saw these new rulebooks, and the first thing I thought was 'when's the Black Reach-esqe starter set coming out?'

Just watched the new trailer posted on GW's site. I'll try to throw up some screen shots if i can find the time. There are a few rules in there you can read through to try and hold you over until the 30th. I saw rules for firing templates in ruins, as well as assaulting coherency rules in ruins. Apparently guys a couple level up as far as 6" away from a unit in base contact can fight if I read it right. There are also rules about flyers. It give some useful details about what you measure from the flying base and what you measure from the hull of the flyer. The rules on zoom moves are in there. A flyer must start in reserve. If a flyer declares a zoom move it can not ram or tank shock with the move and must move between 18" and 36" if it is somehow forced to move less that 18" it is instantly wrecked. If a flyer declares a zoom it can only make one 90 degree rotation and no other movement besides it's zoom. It can fire up to four of it's weapons at it zooms.

There are brief teaser paragraphs about hull points, and allies, as well as psyker casting levels are in and a weapon profile of some las and plasma weapons that introduce something called "hotshot" weapons. If this has been discussed elsewhere I have no idea what the "hotshot" rule is but I imagine a shoot from the hip kind of rule. There is also a some thing in the profile a weapon called the Icharus Cannon that classifies it as an "Interceptor Skyfire", again no idea what that means but there you have it.

Hope this is interesting or at all useful it seems like it is but I'm honestly a little sleep deprived.. Give the video a watch and make friends with the pause button to get a head start on some rules.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=2700210

JeneralJoe117 wrote:I saw these new rulebooks, and the first thing I thought was 'when's the Black Reach-esqe starter set coming out?'

September.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I'm hoping that there's a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet that will mean this isn't going to be flyerspam like 5th was mechspam. Flyers moving upto 36", shooting upto 4 weapons at BS, only being able to be hit on 6s and unassaultable (except by some units with a special rule no doubt) is really, really powerful.

I'm just hoping that a fair bit of existing weaponry gets FAQ'd to be able to hit these things. Someone earlier mentioned Multi Lasers profile changing. In the leaked 6th ed book, starcannons were listed as S7. Also, the new chariot rule will clearly be given to open topped transports (I'm sure one of the DE transports actually mentions that it's like a chariot). Then there's all the stuff about CC weapons changing. So, there is evidence that models/weapons etc are going to get changed, it just remains to be seen how but unless we get some decent options for anti flyer weaponry, I'm worried that 6th will become all about being able to deal with flyers.

The new rulebook contains a complete reference sheet of every weapon and unit in the game, so should be a chance for a lot of weapons to get the Skyfire special rule among others

I'm all sorted for handbags, so I've gone with the collectors edition since the dice and cards will be full ongoing releases.

The templates look like dog toffee in close up, I'll stick to my green ones unless he new starter has some nice ones.

azazel the cat wrote:

tuiman wrote:I don't understand why they have replaced Ultramarines as the poster boys of gw, not that I'm complaining.

Just to comfirm with the above, the gamers and collectors edition look to be sold out in both Australia and NZ

What do you mean? Calgar is on the left.

And how is the white marine next too him ??!

Looks like Altruizine has already basically posted all of what I just put so just ignore me.

Therion wrote:

I'm hoping that there's a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet that will mean this isn't going to be flyerspam like 5th was mechspam.

You will. From what I've been told now glances don't roll on the damage table at all anymore but always remove a hull point. Penetrating hits also remove a hull point but also roll on the damage chart. When hull points go to zero you're automatically a wreck. A Land Raider therefore can survive a maximum of four glances and/or penetrating hits and then it's always a wreck no matter what, but it can still die to a single penetrating hit too if that hit rolls good on the chart. Vehicles are therefore easier to destroy than before. They have wounds, but can still also suffer a form of instant death...

Every other vehicle than flyers that is, because they can't be hit properly with guns and they can't be assaulted at all! That this leads to armies cramming in as many flyers as they can is a no-brainer. I know my Necrons will drop all other vehicles in favour of Night and Doom Scythes. CCBs are probably still too good to drop because they can keep moving flat out and having the cover save, despite not actually being flyers.

That's what I don't like the idea of - suddenly Flyers popping up everywhere. If GW FAQ something cheap like scatterwalkers to have anti air, then I'd much rather just take some of them to deal with my opponents Flyers rather than having to field flyers myself. I know it will all become clear next week but I hope that I have the opportunity to not take flyers and still be able to compete with armies that do.

edit: lost my post to a strange bug with the edit system

Also rumours have suggested flyers getting far fewer hull points than other vehicles, not to mention generally having lighter armour, plus, hitting on a 6 becomes less of a big deal as your base BS goes down, which makes all the drama about flyers being too good pretty hilarious, perish the thought of Space Marines losing out compared to other armies for once.

I edited my post a bit so you'd understand what I meant better.

Vehicles will be quite bad compared to what people are used to. Hull points is a nerf. Flyers will be good. They won't be gods but they'll be good, especially as they can keep on alpha striking. You read the evade rules didn't you? When a flyer gets shot it can choose to remove itself from the battlefield and come back next turn from reserves but it has BS1 for that turn. It can't therefore really be killed unless the player risks it being so.

Hull Points don't sit well with me (and that's aside from the additional - and dare I say it needless - book keeping).

I would have preferred if glancing hits removed Hull Points, and once all the Hull Points were gone then glancing hits could start rolling on the damage chart.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Hull Points don't sit well with me (and that's aside from the additional - and dare I say it needless - book keeping).

I would have preferred if glancing hits removed Hull Points, and once all the Hull Points were gone then glancing hits could start rolling on the damage chart.

Interesting perspective. I haven't heard very many people claim that 5th edition vehicles aren't resilient enough before.

I would have preferred if glancing hits removed Hull Points, and once all the Hull Points were gone then glancing hits could start rolling on the damage chart.

That was my idea I think and that would've kept vehicles much better. Now that hull points are wounds, vehicles suffered a huge nerf. There's no other way to spin it. I'm on repeat but it's comparable to a Tyranid monster with 4 wounds, except every now and then the first lascannon or krak missile will kill it outright.

Like I said, flyers have other bonuses, sure they'll have 2-3 hull points only but they can't be hit properly and they can evade out from the field and come back guns blazing. Other vehicles though, not so lucky.

Funny example to illustrate my point:

Relentless adds +1 to the shots you get so you rapid fire 3 shots and shoot 2 to far. Therefore, 12 Necron Warriors with an attached phaeron autokill a Land Raider in one volley of rapid fire because they reach 4 glances and therefore strip it of all its hull points.

Who in their right mind would field something like Land Raiders now or in fact any tanks? They blow (up).

Interesting perspective. I haven't heard very many people claim that 5th edition vehicles aren't resilient enough before.

It's because noone actually knew what hull points were, untill now.

Therion wrote:

Also rumours have suggested flyers getting far fewer hull points than other vehicles, not to mention generally having lighter armour, plus, hitting on a 6 becomes less of a big deal as your base BS goes down, which makes all the drama about flyers being too good pretty hilarious, perish the thought of Space Marines losing out compared to other armies for once.

I edited my post a bit so you'd understand what I meant better.

Vehicles will be quite bad compared to what people are used to. Hull points is a nerf. Flyers will be good. They won't be gods but they'll be good, especially as they can keep on alpha striking. You read the evade rules didn't you? When a flyer gets shot it can choose to remove itself from the battlefield and come back next turn from reserves but it has BS1 for that turn. It can't therefore really be killed unless the player risks it being so.

I haven't seen the Evade rules, I was under the impression there was rolling saves involved though.

Also, having your flyer be BS1 every turn because you constantly evade seems to be a big waste of points.

I think they will have a good role to play, and they definitely have advantages, but I don't think they are nearly as tough as some people are making out.

Is it absolutely confirmed that glances remove hull points and once all hull points are gone it's a wreck, or are we just working out that this is likely based on what we know so far?

Otherwise, like you said, who'd take any tanks at all? Surely a vehicle isn't wrecked on the removal of all hull points - there are simply too many ways to glance armour, even AV14.

I can really so lots of fast tanks being well used, also dark elder and tau stuff. other factions tanks are laughably delicate now

Is it really that cut and dry? I can't imagine they'd tip it so far the other way as to not sell many of their (quite profitable) tank kits.