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Also, having your flyer be BS1 every turn because you constantly evade seems to be a big waste of points.

A twin-linked Tesla Destructor with BS4 hits 5.33 times. With BS1 it hits 3.66 times. It's just the nature of the tesla special rule and being twin-linked. It's still good. A Death Ray on the other hand doesn't suffer any negative effects at all from BS1.

Atleast Necrons are completely fine with evading out whenever shot by other flyers or AA mounts, and coming back with BS1. Sooner or later there won't be any threats left and they have no need to evade.

tuebor wrote:

Snufflesms wrote:Worse for Australia! Ours is worth $125 US just for the standard edition!

Yeah but minimum and average wages are a lot higher down there than in the US so I wouldn't complain too much.

With flyers I agree that it's probably going to boil down to what units end up with Skyguard or whatever the anti-air rule is called. I'll probably buy an Aegis line anyway because why wouldn't I for the gunline portion of my Guard? However if I have just one anti-air weapon I easily foresee it getting blown off the board turn 1 and then I get chewed up by a trio of Dakkajets all game.

Speaking of, does the new WD say anything about how the guns bought with the Aegis line work when being shot at? The bastion makes sense, it's probably basically an immobile AV14 vehicle but if the gun with the Aegis line is just a Thunderfire cannon style artillery thing it's going to be pretty fragile.

edit: 6th won't become flyerspam the way 5th was mechspam simply because you can't take that many flyers in the armies that have them. The only legitimate flyerspam army would be Elysians although who knows what the FAQ will do to them.

not true. they are infact very similar for most of the country. and even so 90 percent of people into this hobby arnt earning that much money mostly young people

H.B.M.C. wrote:Hull Points don't sit well with me (and that's aside from the additional - and dare I say it needless - book keeping).

I would have preferred if glancing hits removed Hull Points, and once all the Hull Points were gone then glancing hits could start rolling on the damage chart.

This is the way I thought it would work.

Is it absolutely confirmed that glances remove hull points and once all hull points are gone it's a wreck

Well, I asked Lukus to go back to his GW store to check this one rule in particular (hull points and how survivable vehicles are). He couldn't go so he called his friend who is there to read the relevant pages and check and that was his answer. Glances remove a hull point, penetrating hits remove a hull point and roll on the chart, and you're dead if your hull points are zero and/or if the chart says so (whichever happens first).

So Infantry hammer it is.. other than flyers which will remove part of the glancing situation by the difficulty to hit them?

Of course I'll take tanks anyways, but I'm considering tournament armies with the above statement.

Therion is correct, to quote from white dwarf

"The closest ork trukk, survived two direct hits from krak missiles, but lost its final hull point to an exploding krak grenade, the trukk exploded spectacularly, taking 5 orks with it in the conflagration"

so when you lose your last hull point....kaboom

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So Infantry hammer it is.. other than flyers which will remove part of the glancing situation by the difficulty to hit them?

I can't see it any other way. Of course bad lists will still be bad lists even if they have infantry and flyers, but this is a metagame shift no doubt. How good are the standard-pattern mech Grey Knights now? I don't think very good at all. All those Razorbacks and Psyriflemen have been hit by the nerf bat harder than ever before. They'll have to adjust, big time. Purifiers still kick ass and their henchmen are still dirt cheap, but a big change is still required.

I know my friend's Blood Angels can adapt. He runs Mephiston and assault squads in Razorbacks plus some Baals and Devastators. In the new system, off the top of our head, he would run Mephiston, Sanguinary Priests with jump packs, Assault Squads with jump packs, plus Storm Ravens. Maybe some Death Company because of the +2 attacks from rage, or some Assault Terminators into the Storm Ravens, or some Sanguinary Guard. Jump packers got the free I10 attack anyway when charging so they won't cry over losing all their vehicles (other than flyers).

tuiman wrote:Therion is correct, to quote from white dwarf

"The closest ork trukk, survived two direct hits from krak missiles, but lost its final hull point to an exploding krak grenade, the trukk exploded spectacularly, taking 5 orks with it in the conflagration"

so when you lose your last hull point....kaboom

Probably not an explosion by default, remember Trukks have special rules for when they die.

Probably not an explosion by default, remember Trukks have special rules for when they die.

A hull point death results in wrecked. The 6 on the damage chart results in the big explosion. There isn't even a wrecked result on the damage chart, only the big explosion. AP1 weapons get +2 on the table (big explosion on 4+ if its hard to count) so just a single penetrating hit from those is very deadly.

Maybe if autocannon gets the skyfire rule then psyrifleman might still be a very good choice

Therion wrote:

Interesting perspective. I haven't heard very many people claim that 5th edition vehicles aren't resilient enough before.

It's because noone actually knew what hull points were, untill now.

The prevailing theory was that hull points were hit points that were removed from any damage result and that glancing hits still rolled on the table, so to hear that glancing hits no longer do anything except deduct Hull Points seems fairly tame to me.


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tuiman wrote:Therion is correct, to quote from white dwarf

"The closest ork trukk, survived two direct hits from krak missiles, but lost its final hull point to an exploding krak grenade, the trukk exploded spectacularly, taking 5 orks with it in the conflagration"

so when you lose your last hull point....kaboom

This is probably thanks to the Ork Trukk's Ramshackle rule, which makes it behave differently than other vehicles when destroyed.

Thousands of razorbacks for cheap on ebay starting in July?

The prevailing theory was that hull points were hit points that were removed from any hit and that glancing hits still rolled on the table, so to hear that glancing hits no longer do anything except deduct Hull Points seems fairly tame to me.

I don't think that was the prevalent theory at all. The prevalent theory was that glances remove a hull point but don't roll on the chart and when hull points are zero every hit will roll on the chart afterwards. The truth wasn't quite as rosy.

Now it's easier to kill a Land Raider than a single 50 point Tomb Spyder (my older example, the 12 relentless Necron Warriors autokill a Land Raider but only cause 1.33 wounds on the Spyder).

Are the Tyranids back?

Thousands of razorbacks for cheap on ebay starting in July?

Millions...

I wonder if holofields will stay the same. If they do, pretty much not worth it by a big margin.

Necron Warrior Phalanxes REJOICE!

I am so f-ing happy about these changes. Seriously. I am dancing around like a madman!

A squad of 15 warriors means 15 shots at 24" even when moving thus with a little bit of luck, you blow up a transporter in a single turn and even a landraider has to fear glances now. 20 Warriors = 20 shots at 24'' = pretty much a dead transporter. Pop goes the Rhino!

Heavy Destroyers? Hahahaha! Reroll to hit, S9, +1 on damage chart.

So. Happy. I shed manly robot tears.

Bleh. Hull points were the one thing I was feeling really positive about when I thought they only were involved with armour 14 vehicles.

Now from the sounds of it, it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut when 'dead vehicles are bad for the guys inside them' and 'can only score from a disembarked vehile' would have been a fine fix for vehicle spam in my mind....

I was gonna say, Necrons seem to benefit the most considering the changes.

No other army has the same access to glancing hits, do they? I mean, any other army would be using the same weapon to glance as they would to penetrate, so they wouldn't benefit nearly as much.

As such, though it is a significant downgrade to vehicle toughness, Necrons are really the only army that can really abuse it, so I don't think we'd see a massive reduction in vehicle use.

Dark Eldar are the ones I really feel for, Raiders being destroyed easily by -bolter- fire, I mean yeah, it happened before, but only if you rolled a 6. Now you just glance them a few times (probably twice or three times), and bam, no more Scootypuff Jr.

Lukus83 wrote:Another little tidbit. Not sure if this has been said before but this one is about hull points:

All vehicles have them. Glances remove 1. Pens remove 1 but then also roll on the damage chart. No wrecked result but 6's explode. AP1 is +2 on the chart, AP2 is +1.

This time I can't personally confirm but is from a trusted friend.

This would explain things like removing AP values from certain weapons (like the multilasers) and newer high rate of fire AP- weapons like psilencers. Basically, there'll be the high rate of fire, high AP multi glances approach and the low rate of fire, low AP approach. Being able to put out a lot of strength 6 and above, low AP shots will be the win button here, so any kind of rapid firing plasma, Fire Dragons would be even better than they are now etc etc

As such, though it is a significant downgrade to vehicle toughness, Necrons are really the only army that can really abuse it, so I don't think we'd see a massive reduction in vehicle use.

Well, we have to math hammer the differences of 5 krak missiles at a Psyrifleman in 5th and in the 6th when 3 glances/penetrates will autokill it but I think we can all see that it dies faster in 6th despite the type of gun you're using. It will lead to less vehicles and the sooner people realise the better it is for themselves.

Necrons have their advantages like you said. It's a massive buff to Gauss of course, but many of their vehicles have those Tesla Destructors which suffered from S7 (many glances) and AP- before. Now AP- has no negative downside in this instance and you'll be quite satisfied with getting glances instead of penetrating hits. Of course penetrating hits are still preferable, but everything dies fast to glances anyway so it's not a big deal. TL Tesla Destructors are also probably the best weapon in the game to be snap fired since BS1 isn't very harmful to it (other than Death Rays of course if it's allowed, we don't know that part yet).

Welp, let the golden age of the Necron commence! Someone should model a Necron warrior cheering for joy, like when 5th edition came out and someone did that facepalming warrior.

Dr. Delorean wrote:Welp, let the golden age of the Necron commence! Someone should model a Necron warrior cheering for joy, like when 5th edition came out and someone did that facepalming warrior.

Sigvatr should just take a picture of himself. I think he's been doing the happy dance to appease the gods on the roof of his house for the last 45 minutes.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves about the golden age. Some of the insanely good loyalist books can adapt to this very fast. They'll just drop their Razorbacks and Baal Predators etc. from their lists. Space Wolves get multiple thunderwolf bosses and thunderwolf cavalry. Their Long Fangs are still good or in fact better than ever. Blood Angels were probably going to remove all or most of their ground vehicles anyway because of the buffs to jump infantry. Grey Knights seemed to have gained some buffs to Dreadknights which offsets the possible losses to Psyriflemen. Their Purifiers are still awesome even if their cars are now junk. Imperial Guard have their dirt cheap Hydras in good use because people will have flyers, and they got their own kick ass flyers. They also got access to tons and tons of points effective infantry. They won't be gutted even if they stop using 10 Chimeras.

Wouldn't this make S8 multi-shot weapons even better (I'm thinking Autocannons w/Psycannon Bolts).

I'd be hesitant to call it infantry hammer just yet...

Vehicles are a huge boon for capturing objectives, helping get your infantry to these objectives quickly and safely. Whilst infantry remain fundamental to actually capturing the objectives. Vehicles may also benefit from being faster; particularly for capturing objectives.

Maybe - although I'm not holding my breath - they've found the balance between the need/desire for both vehicles and infantry, with the former being less viable than currently due to fragility.

A cheap rhino is not a lot of points, load it up and move "flat out" to get to your objective even faster or be a wall of cover after dropping of passengers. Vehicles will still have a place, even if it is smaller I think.

Purgation squads with psilencers hidden in ruins will now be much better, especially if they can get overwatch.

Interceptors with Falchions, hitting at I10 and then getting three attacks each on the charge will be much more fearsome, especially with the 3D6" charge.

Coteaz's 'I've been expecting you' rule has much more of a chance to catch something coming in from reserve if we're talking about a flyer moving 18" to 36". Stick him with afore mentioned Psilencer Purgation squad in the ruins (which still grant 4+ cover).

A Grand Master who is also a warlord will be able to use Grand Strategy on top of rolling for his warlord powers.

GK squads with Storm Bolters and Psybolt ammo will glance down AV11 just as easily as Necrons.

Power weapons becoming AP3 which will buff Paladins durability and Paladins can all take Hammers, meaning they can take out 2+ armour saves with ease.

And if GK want to field a flyer, then I'm sure that Stormravens will be classified as such. That's off the top of my head, I'm sure GK will be OK but as was mentioned above, they will have to adjust massively.

d-usa wrote:A cheap rhino is not a lot of points, load it up and move "flat out" to get to your objective even faster or be a wall of cover after dropping of passengers. Vehicles will still have a place, even if it is smaller I think.

I agree 100% with this, I will still continue to use one or two squads in rhinos, just as a quick way to get around the field and claim objectives

Maybe mech and infantry will become more balanced

Maybe mech and infantry will become more balanced

If this happens, I will name my first born child "Lord Solar Macharius" in celebration. This isn't to say I'm not expecting this, at least in some way, just that it's what I've been waiting for, for such a long time.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Purgation squads with psilencers hidden in ruins will now be much better, especially if they can get overwatch.

Interceptors with Falchions, hitting at I10 and then getting three attacks each on the charge will be much more fearsome, especially with the 3D6" charge.

Coteaz's 'I've been expecting you' rule has much more of a chance to catch something coming in from reserve if we're talking about a flyer moving 18" to 36". Stick him with afore mentioned Psilencer Purgation squad in the ruins (which still grant 4+ cover).

A Grand Master who is also a warlord will be able to use Grand Strategy on top of rolling for his warlord powers.

GK squads with Storm Bolters and Psybolt ammo will glance down AV11 just as easily as Necrons.

Power weapons becoming AP3 which will buff Paladins durability and Paladins can all take Hammers, meaning they can take out 2+ armour saves with ease.

And if GK want to field a flyer, then I'm sure that Stormravens will be classified as such. That's off the top of my head, I'm sure GK will be OK but as was mentioned above, they will have to adjust massively.

Yeah, cause there was really any danger of them being underpowered...

d-usa wrote:A cheap rhino is not a lot of points, load it up and move "flat out" to get to your objective even faster or be a wall of cover after dropping of passengers. Vehicles will still have a place, even if it is smaller I think.

That's what I'm thinking. Transports will still probably be used, just people will be less likely to hide units in them...

Like I said earlier, you have to keep in mind that flyers will be more difficult to employ effectively every turn than your standard vehicle. A minimum 18" move and only one 90 degree turn will make it difficult to line up shots and position the flyers properly, especially when you are fielding 8-12 of them and they are all competing for airspace. Granted, it's a small trade-off for the bonuses, but they won't be as plug and play as the mech spam lists of 5th edition.