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Looks like they moved back to how transports were in 2nd edition - rolling death traps that not many people took?

And flyers got insanely good!

I think the only obvious thing that many people would like to know next is which units and guns in the game have the skyfire special rule. That's the special rule that allows flyers to be shot with normal BS. Flyers have it and Hydras have it, but who else? Anyone? Don't get your hopes up.

Secondly, there's a special rule called interceptor, which allows you to shoot at flyers during the enemy turn when the flyers enter play from reserve, and they always enter play from reserve. Some units might have this, but the only information now is that some fortification weapon had this (Icarus Lascannon, 96" range) special rule.

Either way that interceptor rule will do very little against the Doom Scythe alpha strike. They'll pop night fight against such interceptor fire if they have to and they'll end up moving so close that firing in the dark won't matter. Guess what their targets are going to be? Anything with skyfire and/or interceptor. Those S10 AP1 lines are going to hurt.

There's no real indication (yet) that transports are any more dangerous for the units inside, just that the transports themselves are more fragile. We haven't received any information regarding whether transports are going to explode more fantastically, apart from the fact that there is only a "Explodes" result, there's no longer a "Wrecked" as well, since simply reducing the number of Hull Points to zero will wreck the vehicle.

In the context of a few rules they look pretty good, but we have no idea what will have skyfire. Which ones for sure will qualify as fliers. Fliers also tend to be pretty expensive with low armor values.

Vehicles are still pretty powerful, they are just closer to the amount you needed to invest in killing them. Someone put it this way. I could design an army whose whole purpose is to kill tanks. You could play a army full of tanks. Now I should be able to beat you since my army is specifically designed to kill you. That is not the case in 5th as vehicles just don't die. I cant tell you the number of times I have gotten 5-6 pens on a vehicle and nothing has happened. It gets really frustrating after awhile. At least this way there is always some reward for your investment.

tuebor wrote:Yeah but minimum and average wages are a lot higher down there than in the US so I wouldn't complain too much.

Yeah, cause people who earn more based on dodgy statistics should totally pay more for stuff than everyone else...

IF its true that glances no longer require a roll on the table, I consider this to be a buff to vehicles (at least light vehicles), to be honest.

Yes, it does allow glances to 'reliably' destroy a vehicle. But on the other hand, glances can already destroy most light vehicles (open topped). Also, glances right now mean stunned or shaken at the VERY least. So, my paper thin raiders or trukkz, even if they survive a round of shooting, its almost guaranteed to be sitting there unable to move next turn. In other words, unable to do its job, which is to get my wyches/boyz to the front line. No immobilization anymore either means my battlewagons will have an easier time of it, and I won't have to babysit every one of them with a mek/riggers.

Don't forget your devastator squad isn't as tough anymore since cover is getting nerfed. Also, if all vehicles can now move 6 and fire everything, a smart general (who SHOULD be playing on a field with some LOS blocking terrain, shame on you people who don't like it) will be moving his tanks to force the devastator squad to move (snap fire is a hell of a lot less dangerous).

I will acknowledge, hull points are without a doubt, a nerf to vehicles. On the other hand it does have some good points as well outlined above. The only way I could see transports and vehicles being completely dead is if the new movement rules make them slower.

I know its a pipe dream, and it will probably never happen because of how the entire game went during 5th edition, but I would like to see them start to back down off of so much high strength volume of fire. If vehicles are more reliable to take out, there's no reason to proliferate GK style codexes filled with STR 6-8 super heavy volume of fire. I know that if they stop making armies like that, it just makes GK all the more powerful, but as they say "its got to get worse before it can get better." I'd like to see a game where a bolter means something and a special weapon is actually SPECIAL again rather than something you give out like candy to a squad (if my squad of 10 doesn't have at least 3 special weapons, it sucks!).

Personally I am happy to see these changes. I will have to play a few games before I decide now though. This seems to be a drastic change. From 4th to 5th wasn't so bad, but 6th ed might be a whole different beast.

Alpharius wrote:Looks like they moved back to how transports were in 2nd edition - rolling death traps that not many people took?

Great...

Makes the weapons with auto-glance a nice powerhouse though.

I do think that having all vehicles being able to move "flat out" in the shooting phase instead of shooting would be a nice touch if that is indeed true.

Let's take the following tactic as an example:

1) Take 2-3 APCs and move up the table in your turn.
2) Dismount crew and position next to the APCs with clear LOS to the enemy.
3) Shooting Phase!
4) Crews decide to fire away at the enemy using the clear LoS.
5) Instead of shooting, APCs now move flat out and park themselves in front of your infantry.
6) No LoS for the enemy.

Yes, it does allow glances to 'reliably' destroy a vehicle. But on the other hand, glances can already destroy most light vehicles (open topped).

You're right in a sense. My gut feeling is that while 'sturdy' vehicles like Dreadnoughts, Chimeras and Land Raiders are much easier to kill than before, the vehicles that were already ridiculously easy to kill (Raiders, Venoms) haven't gotten any worse (or better). Two or three glances would already pretty much autokill a Raider, so nothing has changed for them.

You could also think if you were so inclined that if people fielded less vehicles, they would naturally field more infantry, and those double splinter cannons are awfully good against infantry. Dark Eldar could probably field a couple flyers of their own now instead of the ubiquitous three Ravagers, and support them with the regular Venom army.

Additionally, if some armies like Scythe Necrons (and many other armies) will now completely raze and ravage Chimera and Razorback parking lots, people won't play those Chimera and Razorback parking lots and will shift towards something that is stronger. Now, considering those Chimera parking lots were the worst possible opponent for Dark Eldar, the Dark Eldar should be pleased.

The +2 to damage rolls on AP1 is a huge boon to me and my Railguns. This means that all open tops go down on a 2+ and all other vehicles go down on a 3+. On top of Railguns tend to pen often, if not glance often. I really don't fear Land Raiders nearly as much as I did before. Now the odds are with me to knock them out on turn one with no problem.

Tau Fire Warriors are stated to all have overwatch, does this mean that there will be units who don't? Has there been anyword on Defensive Fire only being given to certain units and not all?

Dantalian wrote:The +2 to damage rolls on AP1 is a huge boon to me and my Railguns. This means that all open tops go down on a 2+ and all other vehicles go down on a 3+. On top of Railguns tend to pen often, if not glance often. I really don't fear Land Raiders nearly as much as I did before. Now the odds are with me to knock them out on turn one with no problem.

Some incorrect information here. You're talking about penetrating hits, and the the only destroyed result is the roll of 6. So a Railgun that scores a penetrating hit explodes the vehicle on a 4+. If it doesn't, it still removes a hull point. If it glances, it removes a hull point but no roll on the damage chart is made.

Additionally, we've no idea if open-topped vehicles suffer from an additional +1 anymore. Even if they did though, they'd die on a 3+ to AP1, not a 2+.

Tau Fire Warriors are stated to all have overwatch, does this mean that there will be units who don't? Has there been anyword on Defensive Fire only being given to certain units and not all?

Not that I know of. As far as I know it's just something everyone does each time they're assaulted.

Therion wrote:
Some incorrect information here. You're talking about penetrating hits, and the the only destroyed result is the roll of 6. So a Railgun that scores a penetrating hit explodes the vehicle on a 4+. If it doesn't, it still removes a hull point. If it glances, it removes a hull point but no roll on the damage chart is made.

Additionally, we've no idea if open-topped vehicles suffer from an additional +1 anymore. Even if they did though, they'd die on a 3+ to AP1, not a 2+.

So what does the new damage chart look like? You mean there is no longer a result of 5 that wrecks the vehicle?

Did my Vibro cannons become useable again? Hmmmmm....

Glancing in 5th - 1/3 chance of being immobilised or unable to move. Glancing in 6th - lose a hull point.
Yeah I won't be throwing away my Chimeras just yet

Dantalian wrote:

Therion wrote:
Some incorrect information here. You're talking about penetrating hits, and the the only destroyed result is the roll of 6. So a Railgun that scores a penetrating hit explodes the vehicle on a 4+. If it doesn't, it still removes a hull point. If it glances, it removes a hull point but no roll on the damage chart is made.

Additionally, we've no idea if open-topped vehicles suffer from an additional +1 anymore. Even if they did though, they'd die on a 3+ to AP1, not a 2+.

So what does the new damage chart look like? You mean there is no longer a result of 5 that wrecks the vehicle?

It's been stated in this thread multiple times so this will lead to some unnecessary repetition on every page. The result of 6 is the explosion. 1-2 shaken, 3 stunned, 4 weapon destroyed, 5 immobilised, 6 explosion. Wrecked is a result of hull points going to zero. A Dreadnought has three hull points. It dies automatically when it suffers three glances or penetrating hits because then it has no more hull points. Alternatively it might die to the first lascannon that penetrates it and rolls for example a 5. AP2 weapons get +1 on the chart.

Yeah I won't be throwing away my Chimeras just yet

You shouldn't throw them away. You should sell them to people like you who still think they'll be tournament worthy. There will be less buyers every day though.

Why? Penetrating hits are the same as before, and glancings have lost the risk of immobilising/crew shaken/stunned.
Transports are not battle tanks. If it takes a few shots to take them out, so what? My men are still protected, and they still have the mobility I need.
And, as in the current ruleset, the enemy's anti-tank will be spread between the chimeras and my battle tanks.
The boost to AP2 is more worrying. We'll wait and see what the actual damage tables look like.

From my glance through white dwarf so far... Every army has gotten a bit more 'powerful' in a few ways, however the game really hasn't been rebalanced much.

The best armies still seem to clearly be:

Grey Knights: I've yet to read any 'real' downsides to psyriflemen, a bit easier to kill, sure, but no more than anything else. Storm Ravens are definitely looking to be the best unit in the game right now. And there all the (anti)psykerness too. It's telling that one of the example Grey Knights lists includes 2 psyriflemen, a storm raven and a level 3 libby.

Imperial Guard: Valkyries, Vendettas and hydras, pretty much 'nuff said. I'm sure carting along buildings will help them too.

Blood Angels: Jump Infantry seem pretty good. The rest is all about the Storm Ravens.

I don't really know enough about Space Wolves to comment on them.

3-4 glancing hits could have rendered a rhino useless anyway, so no big change there.

Don't ask for pirated content on Dakka. -Mannahnin

Testify wrote:Why? Penetrating hits are the same as before, and glancings have lost the risk of immobilising/crew shaken/stunned.
Transports are not battle tanks. If it takes a few shots to take them out, so what? My men are still protected, and they still have the mobility I need.

Nothing is the same as before. There's now a wounds profile on every vehicle. Are you saying you've never had Chimeras that first take a penetrating hit that destroys a weapon, then a penetrating hit that stuns it, then a glance that shakes it and then another glance that shakes it. The enemy will switch targets and if he's unlucky gets a similar result there. Next turn the same Chimera gets shot again and once again it gets shaken and stunned. For the enemy to get any points and actually clear your army he would still have to keep on shooting at it. You repeat this as many times as you want. The tank column was a lot more durable.

Now, all that needs to happen is one serious shooter to do a single volley and roll some dice and say "Three glancing hits" and it means its dead with no need to roll for anything.

3-4 glancing hits could have rendered a rhino useless anyway,

Are you saying you want us to the math comparison of 3 glances vs a Rhino in 5th and in 6th? In 6th it's dead. In 5th it's often still speeding forwards with no other damage except not being able to shoot next turn either due to a shaken or a weapon destroyed or both.

I'd say unless it changes, Haywire has become the number one tank killing weapon in the game by leaps and bounds.

Therion wrote:
It's been stated in this thread multiple times so this will lead to some unnecessary repetition on every page. The result of 6 is the explosion. 1-2 shaken, 3 stunned, 4 weapon destroyed, 5 immobilised, 6 explosion. Wrecked is a result of hull points going to zero. A Dreadnought has three hull points. It dies automatically when it suffers three glances or penetrating hits because then it has no more hull points. Alternatively it might die to the first lascannon that penetrates it and rolls for example a 5. AP2 weapons get +1 on the chart.

You would have to excuse me for not going back more than 6 pages to see this new chart. I know glances do not roll on the table anymore, so that is actually kinda a minor nerf to Railguns in that area. My excitement was more or less based on the old damage table, having just seen a large increase in chances to take out vehicles on pens. This new chart really doesn't change the odds for AP1 weapons at all it seems, but nerfs other APs quite a bit. I guess I can still be pointlessly happy about that at least.

Dantalian wrote:

Therion wrote:
It's been stated in this thread multiple times so this will lead to some unnecessary repetition on every page. The result of 6 is the explosion. 1-2 shaken, 3 stunned, 4 weapon destroyed, 5 immobilised, 6 explosion. Wrecked is a result of hull points going to zero. A Dreadnought has three hull points. It dies automatically when it suffers three glances or penetrating hits because then it has no more hull points. Alternatively it might die to the first lascannon that penetrates it and rolls for example a 5. AP2 weapons get +1 on the chart.

You would have to excuse me for not going back more than 6 pages to see this new chart. I know glances do not roll on the table anymore, so that is actually kinda a minor nerf to Railguns in that area. My excitement was more or less based on the old damage table, having just seen a large increase in chances to take out vehicles on pens. This new chart really doesn't change the odds for AP1 weapons at all it seems, but nerfs other APs quite a bit. I guess I can still be pointlessly happy about that at least.

In a 40 page thread you may have to go back more than 6 pages, there is usually also a summary on page 1. Sorry if people get ticked when you want them to do your homework for you.

Dantalian wrote:

Therion wrote:
It's been stated in this thread multiple times so this will lead to some unnecessary repetition on every page. The result of 6 is the explosion. 1-2 shaken, 3 stunned, 4 weapon destroyed, 5 immobilised, 6 explosion. Wrecked is a result of hull points going to zero. A Dreadnought has three hull points. It dies automatically when it suffers three glances or penetrating hits because then it has no more hull points. Alternatively it might die to the first lascannon that penetrates it and rolls for example a 5. AP2 weapons get +1 on the chart.

You would have to excuse me for not going back more than 6 pages to see this new chart. I know glances do not roll on the table anymore, so that is actually kinda a minor nerf to Railguns in that area. My excitement was more or less based on the old damage table, having just seen a large increase in chances to take out vehicles on pens. This new chart really doesn't change the odds for AP1 weapons at all it seems, but nerfs other APs quite a bit. I guess I can still be pointlessly happy about that at least.

As tau, you are still doing fine in the tank killing department. What the railguns don't kill, you can still glance to death with plasma rifles, missle pods, and pulse rifles

Wow, so even less reason to take Land Raiders than in 5th?

Wow, so even less reason to take Land Raiders than in 5th?

I said I was surprised when I saw Land Raiders have the same amount of hull points as Ghost Arks. I thought it didn't made any sense whatsoever. People said the armour would compensate. It won't

The Land Raider would need something like 8 or 10 hull points so it wouldn't just get glanced to death in a couple volleys. Afterall it still dies to penetrating hits too just like before.

d-usa wrote:
In a 40 page thread you may have to go back more than 6 pages, there is usually also a summary on page 1. Sorry if people get ticked when you want them to do your homework for you.

If you could so kindly point out where on the first page's summary this new damage chart is I would happily not roll my eyes at you as much.

Therion wrote:
I said I was surprised when I saw Land Raiders have the same amount of hull points as Ghost Arks. I thought it didn't made any sense whatsoever. People said the armour would compensate. It won't

The Land Raider would need something like 8 or 10 hull points so it wouldn't just get glanced to death in a couple volleys. Afterall it still dies to penetrating hits too just like before.

It would see that maybe bringing Necron warriors as allies would be the smarter option than GKs in that LandRaider.

Well, how about vehicles in cc. Are they still hitten in the back?

Maelstrom808 wrote:I'd say unless it changes, Haywire has become the number one tank killing weapon in the game by leaps and bounds.

I'd say no one in their right mind will take anything but cheap, expandable transports for rush redeployment or as ablative armor for infantry. Razorbacks might turn out to be the most expensive tanks you'll ever see on the table.

So far the rumors paint a picture of infantry gunlines and jumppack assaults. Everything else is either way to squishy or way to random.