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Unless there are special rules in the codex maybe.

One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

His Master's Voice wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:I'd say unless it changes, Haywire has become the number one tank killing weapon in the game by leaps and bounds.

I'd say no one in their right mind will take anything but cheap, expandable transports for rush redeployment or as ablative armor for infantry. Razorbacks might turn out to be the most expensive tanks you'll ever see on the table.

At a certain point you've saturated the enemy's anti-tank, so you can still take laspreds or Russes.
I don't see why Land Raiders are stuffed though. I don't think I've ever glanced a Land Raider more than a couple of times in a game. It's nearly always penetrated.

Testify wrote:
At a certain point you've saturated the enemy's anti-tank, so you can still take laspreds or Russes.
I don't see why Land Raiders are stuffed though. I don't think I've ever glanced a Land Raider more than a couple of times in a game. It's nearly always penetrated.

I always manage to penetrate a Land Raider 4-5 times on the first turn, unfortunately my luck is always to roll a 1 right after that penetration.

d-usa: Thats true, I have a 1500 tournament in early August using 6th, I'm interested to know if the allies and buying terrain rules will be able to be used or not

Think Necrons and gauss. They break down Hull Points ridiculously fast. Blobs of 15-20 with a relentless Overlord now challenge the CCB lord.

d-usa wrote:Unless there are special rules in the codex maybe.

One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I've been wondering about too. 1850 points has been the norm for the past year atleast, but whether it gets bumped to 2000 points is anyone's guess. There aren't really any changes to the force organisation that would force it though, so I guess it's up to the players as a whole to decide.

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

Lukus83 wrote:Think Necrons and gauss. They break down Hull Points ridiculously fast. Blobs of 15-20 with a relentless Overlord now challenge the CCB lord.

Why spend so many points. 5 warriors and 2 stormteks will, on average, wreck any vehicle in the game a turn.

Therion wrote:

d-usa wrote:Unless there are special rules in the codex maybe.

One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I've been wondering about too. 1850 points has been the norm for the past year atleast, but whether it gets bumped to 2000 points is anyone's guess. There aren't really any changes to the force organisation that would force it though, so I guess it's up to the players as a whole to decide.

People seem to like taking all their toys instead of having to make decisions when building a list. So more potential toys (allies/terrain) could justify a jump in point limits. Certainly would make sense from a GW perspective, since they are selling us the toys.

I would not be impressed with the average game size being increased past 2000pts. But then again this would push more model purchases and support the extra space for allies. Games past this point just go so slow and the level of balance I feel gets worse the larger the game.

infinite_array wrote:

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

infinite_array wrote:

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

What was this one? 2500 points?

Testify wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

Of course they do,
In a perfect GW world, every game would require 2000+ points of models, more money for them.

d-usa wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

What was this one? 2500 points?

Yes it was

lunarman wrote:

Testify wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

Of course they do,
In a perfect GW world, every game would require 2000+ points of models, more money for them.

2000+ points?

Please, playa. GW wishes every game was apocalypse sized with at least 2 models from Forge World per player.

EDIT: Double post.

Testify wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

But GW does push towards larger armies. Look at the changes to WFB in 8th. Heroes and Lords are percentage based, so that means if you want the level 4s and big heroes you need to play a bigger point game.

Same with 40K, give players more toys and options that they "have to have in their list" and you push for higher point games.

lunarman wrote:

Testify wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

d-usa wrote:
One thing I am wondering about is tournaments. With allies, buying terrain, and other changes I wonder if we will see the standard game jump to 2000 or 2500 points. Fantasy has seen a point creep in 8th it seems.

I asked a question a few pages back that I think wasn't answered. I wanted to know the point level of the 5th and 4th edition 'intro batreps' from White Dwarf. If they've gotten progressively larger in points size, then perhaps it's further evidence of GW's push towards larger games?

GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

Of course they do,
In a perfect GW world, every game would require 2000+ points of models, more money for them.

I don't even know what that means. "Well we only have 1500 points so we'd better rush down the shop and buy 500 points more models before we can play".
No. People buy models, then play with what they have. Most collectors have thousands of points of various armies.

Testify wrote:
GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

GW totally has been growing the size of the armies with every edition. This can be seen in tournament/open gaming events they have held of the last 10 years now, each consecutive one has been larger and larger. These "events" for some reason tend to become the new average point size since people tend to build their lists to match the events rules. I remember when the average game was about 1000pts.

Doesn't matter what GW wants their game points level to be at. Its what the community wants.

GW doesn't spend a dime anymore sponsoring tourneys, so its 100% up to the community as to the size AND method they want to play. I think it will take at least a year for Allies and Terrain to become an accepted way to play the game. I also doubt that TO's will increase the points level because they want the games to end in a timely fashion. Most people (slowplayerslol) cant finish a 2000 point game in 2 and a half hours... what would a 2500 point game do?

@ Therion - Pretty much what I've been planning to run for 6th unless there turns out to be some curveballs we haven't seen yet: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/455908.page

Dantalian wrote:

Testify wrote:
GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

GW totally has been growing the size of the armies with every edition. This can be seen in tournament/open gaming events they have held of the last 10 years now. I remember when the average game was about 1000pts.

So back in the day when people had 2,000 points worth of models, they couldn't fathom how to get them all onto the table and just played with 1,000 points instead?
I think you guys seem to think the average player with buy x amount of points, no more no less, GW have cottoned on to this and so want people to play bigger games.
It's not like people enjoy being larger and more theatrical, or anything.

Testify wrote:
So back in the day when people had 2,000 points worth of models, they couldn't fathom how to get them all onto the table and just played with 1,000 points instead?
I think you guys seem to think the average player with buy x amount of points, no more no less, GW have cottoned on to this and so want people to play bigger games.
It's not like people enjoy being larger and more theatrical, or anything.

GW sponsored events have been growing in point size over the years. People build lists for these "events" and slowly they become the new average for everyone to consider. That has been the pattern now for as long as I can remember.

Also If you were even in the hobby around 2nd and 3rd, you would realize 1000pts was a HUGE game.

Armies play differently when they hit the FOC wall on slots, so people have thier different comfort zone on points. Bigger isn't always better in 40k games. Now with the addition of purchasable terrain, allies, and possible FOC manipulation, I could definately see the overall ceiling being raised a bit.

Goresaw wrote:Doesn't matter what GW wants their game points level to be at. Its what the community wants.

GW doesn't spend a dime anymore sponsoring tourneys, so its 100% up to the community as to the size AND method they want to play. I think it will take at least a year for Allies and Terrain to become an accepted way to play the game. I also doubt that TO's will increase the points level because they want the games to end in a timely fashion. Most people (slowplayerslol) cant finish a 2000 point game in 2 and a half hours... what would a 2500 point game do?

Our time limits are 30 minutes for every 500 points or fraction thereof.

I think allies will be in from the get go or nearly so.

Allowing the foc terrain will be a rare circumstance in tourneys

Testify wrote:

Dantalian wrote:

Testify wrote:
GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

GW totally has been growing the size of the armies with every edition. This can be seen in tournament/open gaming events they have held of the last 10 years now. I remember when the average game was about 1000pts.

So back in the day when people had 2,000 points worth of models, they couldn't fathom how to get them all onto the table and just played with 1,000 points instead?
I think you guys seem to think the average player with buy x amount of points, no more no less, GW have cottoned on to this and so want people to play bigger games.
It's not like people enjoy being larger and more theatrical, or anything.

Rulesets usually work best at a certain point level. Tournaments usually cater to a specific list of people that want to play a specific type of game. That is how point creep happens, again just look at WFB to see it in action.

Nothing keeps anybody from playing whatever they want at home or the FLGS. I enjoy lower point games because list building is more important IMO. But change the tournament scene and many local metas will change as well since for some people local games are only practice games for tournaments.

d-usa wrote:

Rulesets usually work best at a certain point level. Tournaments usually cater to a specific list of people that want to play a specific type of game. That is how point creep happens, again just look at WFB to see it in action.

Nothing keeps anybody from playing whatever they want at home or the FLGS. I enjoy lower point games because list building is more important IMO. But change the tournament scene and many local metas will change as well since for some people local games are only practice games for tournaments.

Exactly this.

imweasel wrote:
Allowing the foc terrain will be a rare circumstance in tourneys

Nerf cover, but allow people to buy terrain for better cover?
Make flyers awesome, but allow people to buy reliable AA terrain?

Terrain will be in tournaments.

With These Rules, Necrons become Cheese :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Just Wondering, is it better to go for the Gamer or Collector Edition???

Testify wrote:GW don't "push" towards larger armies. You can play with whatever point level you want.

Don't be naive. GW have been increasing the size of the game with each edition. They just added rules for buying terrain in your games, and terrain went up in price during the last price rise. These things don't happen by accident, they are planned.