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Made in us
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Preview of the card decks...
https://www.ulisses-us.com/wrath-glory-card-previews/

Cards replace and expand tables in the book.


So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yeah, no. I've been burned on cards before. My 6th Ed Apocalypse cards remain unopened to this day. These cards have things outside of the rulebook. That and the idea of drawing a critical result that will be the 'next' one for whomever suffers a critical? What?

I don't need nor want a deck of cards to tell me what results and "roleplaying" I or my players should be doing. We didn't need it in WFRPG 3rd Ed, and I don't see why we need it in the new 40K RPG.

No thanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/20 00:46:08


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, no. I've been burned on cards before. My 6th Ed Apocalypse cards remain unopened to this day. These cards have things outside of the rulebook. That and the idea of drawing a critical result that will be the 'next' one for whomever suffers a critical? What?

I don't need nor want a deck of cards to tell me what results and "roleplaying" I or my players should be doing. We didn't need it in WFRPG 3rd Ed, and I don't see why we need it in the new 40K RPG.

No thanks.

I'm thinking the same. I have no idea why you'd leave the next one there on the table for all to see, nor do I like them as narrative elements. Wrath and Glory really seems to want to hold your hand on narrative stuff like that.
A deck to draw crits/perils from instead of rolling might be cool, but the idea of drawing a 'weapon lodged in terrain' card when you're just standing in the open trying to gun someone down isn't gonna make much sense.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Preview of the card decks...
https://www.ulisses-us.com/wrath-glory-card-previews/

Cards replace and expand tables in the book.


So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...


From what I can remember, Ross said you'll only need the Campaign Deck. You'll be able to stick with the charts in the book if the card decks aren't your thing. And hey, I was able to run five games of Wrath & Glory without the card decks or the core book...

Fun aside: To trigger a Critical Hit, you need to score an Exalted Icon on your Wrath Die when making a Ballistic or Melee Skill test.
   
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BlueGrassGamer wrote:
Fun aside: To trigger a Critical Hit, you need to score an Exalted Icon on your Wrath Die when making a Ballistic or Melee Skill test.

I assumed as much but nice to have confirmation. I found those pretty common actually, my groups were racking up the glory much faster than they could spend it while complications were much rarer.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Preview of the card decks...
https://www.ulisses-us.com/wrath-glory-card-previews/

Cards replace and expand tables in the book.


So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...



Surely replacing the tables in the book means that they are an alternative to an already existing system and thus far more optional than they are necessary. I agree that card systems are gimmicky more often than not and are difficult to store neatly with the books but I also feel that this game is quite clearly setting out to be a flexible toolbox than a finely tuned simulator that insists we use every part of system every time. I loved the old 40k rpgs very much but they were not particularly hackable.
   
Made in gb
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

Gasmasked Mook wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Preview of the card decks...
https://www.ulisses-us.com/wrath-glory-card-previews/

Cards replace and expand tables in the book.


So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...



Surely replacing the tables in the book means that they are an alternative to an already existing system and thus far more optional than they are necessary. I agree that card systems are gimmicky more often than not and are difficult to store neatly with the books but I also feel that this game is quite clearly setting out to be a flexible toolbox than a finely tuned simulator that insists we use every part of system every time. I loved the old 40k rpgs very much but they were not particularly hackable.


Replacing and expanding, ie they will have things that are not part of the tables in the books. That makes them necessary to have access to a complete set of tools for playing the game.

And the old 40K RPGs were plenty hackable, it just required a bit of thought, not that any of my groups needed to all that often but then, we never felt a burning desire to finish off the joke "An Ork, a Genestealer Hybrid, and a Primaris Chaplain walk into a bar, the Imperal Knight bartender turns to them and says..."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/20 05:21:43


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
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I sympathise with the completionist impulse and very much agree that player-aides and whatnot should not be required to run the game. If the only way to know what spells my navigaor could use was to buy a spell card pack, I would certainly be turned off the game. So long as the option remains to run the game entirely out of the books though, I am pretty content.

From the sounds of it, card-based criticals play very differently from tables (the top card is known to the GM and players) so I understand if they may have different effects that would not work as well or be too cumbersome for the table-based resolution (and vice versa). This therefore strikes me more as a module to run the game slightly differently.

Perhaps I am trying a little too hard to be optimistic about this system (I have been waiting for something like it ever since I got into the 40k rpgs) but the setting has always stressed the importance of blind faith

I do have to disagree emphatically about how easy the old percentile system was to manipulate though. The layered skills, perk and career system made hacking a very labour intensive process indeed (you could tell because FFG reused almost all of the perk trees in each of the books)
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not hackable".

Have you seen what the community has made for the 40K RPGs? The Fringe is Yours, Fear and Loathing in the Eastern Fringe and Mars Needs Women! are expansions that have gone through many revisions.

Yes, they're a bit meme-y because they originate on /tg/, but they contain very detailed rules for all sorts of stuff, certainly well beyond the scope of the regular game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/20 09:00:31


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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Hell someone turned Dark Heresy rules into a whole new game for Neon Genesis Evangelion, complete with mech battles base building and all kinds of added stuff. Doesn't get much more 'hacked' than that.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in ro
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





 jonolikespie wrote:
Hell someone turned Dark Heresy rules into a whole new game for Neon Genesis Evangelion, complete with mech battles base building and all kinds of added stuff. Doesn't get much more 'hacked' than that.


OK, now that sounds awesome!

Link, please?

As for Cardgate here?

The latest nugget that they are 'replacing' and 'expanding' the tables in the book is a bit disappointing, but all indications remain pointing to the fact that they don't appear to be necessary, at all, stil.

I hope.

Insidious Intriguer 
   
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https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Evangelion

I think version 2 or 2.5 was the one I played that was a DH mod, I'm not sure what the go with version 3 was but I think I heard they'd reworked the whole system for that so it might nor be d100.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
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Thanks for that - much appreciated!

Meanwhile, back here, I'm still waiting for more details on this stuff, and probably not pre-ordering!

Insidious Intriguer 
   
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Uk

The game seems determined to wrestle narrative control from the players and into the hands of purely mechanical effects.

The card that turns an enemy into a 'nemesis' in order to get some wrath tokens is very 'gamey'.

*witty comment regarding table top gaming* 
   
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It does sound a bit like that - which makes the cards seem even less necessary than before!

I solid GM should have no problems steering this back more into RPG territory though.

Insidious Intriguer 
   
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Michigan

I played one of the sample games at Origins. We were each handed a campaign card at the beginning of the game with the option to use it if we wanted. My take on them is that they're there to use if you need help coming up with narrative choices, or you need justification for doing cool things because of a controlling GM who feels the need to go by the book. If you don't think you need them, you probably don't.

My card, playing the sister of battle, allowed me to martyr myself to automatically let the party overcome a significant challenge.

   
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 Zefig wrote:
My take on them is that they're there to use if you need help coming up with narrative choices
Yeah see it's stuff like that which makes me go back to the term 'handholding'.

I'm sure for people new to RPGs this is.. actually I am not even sure this would be beneficial for them, but I can see it as a design choice to help people new to roleplaying.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in gb
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If they help people get into the setting and feel of the game, then good. Even if I don't use them, there's no downside.

In the last Dark Heresy campaign we played, we had two players (myself included) who were big 40k fans, two more and the GM who'd played a while back but weren't so obsessed with the nuances, and one newbie. We got on fine, but something like this; "here, read over these, it'll give you an idea of how your character is likely to act and think" can only be a benefit.

On a similar vein, I've always been a fan of WFRP 1st and 2nd edition (and the FFG 40k RPGs) using random character generation. I've not got the imagination for backstory (I can never think of a name, never mind a character class or a history), so letting the game handle all of that for me is a boon.

As for them adding material to the core rules, what RPG doesn't do that? I've never yet found an RPG supplement that was necessary to play the game, no matter how much extra crunch and tables they put in.
   
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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If they help people get into the setting and feel of the game, then good. Even if I don't use them, there's no downside.

In the last Dark Heresy campaign we played, we had two players (myself included) who were big 40k fans, two more and the GM who'd played a while back but weren't so obsessed with the nuances, and one newbie. We got on fine, but something like this; "here, read over these, it'll give you an idea of how your character is likely to act and think" can only be a benefit.

On a similar vein, I've always been a fan of WFRP 1st and 2nd edition (and the FFG 40k RPGs) using random character generation. I've not got the imagination for backstory (I can never think of a name, never mind a character class or a history), so letting the game handle all of that for me is a boon.

As for them adding material to the core rules, what RPG doesn't do that? I've never yet found an RPG supplement that was necessary to play the game, no matter how much extra crunch and tables they put in.


My issue isn't expansions adding to the core rules, it is those extra rules in expansions only being contained in decks.

I don't want to use card decks. Also despite the 'you don't have to use them' argument (which is incidentally true of everything ever) I am disappointed that the 'campaign only' deck that is not in the book is not narrative effects only, but also contains crunchy effects. This means I will have to ignore a chunk of the core rules to play without it. I don't like that. I either have to use a deck mechanic I don't like, or am forced to ignore a chunk of core rules which i don't like doing for a number of reasons.

*witty comment regarding table top gaming* 
   
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So, you're upset at not being able to use a part of the rules you don't like?

I think this is all just preference, rather than a flaw in the game, yes?
   
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Uk

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
So, you're upset at not being able to use a part of the rules you don't like?

I think this is all just preference, rather than a flaw in the game, yes?


No, I believe the use of cards as described is a flaw in the game because (a) it takes control of the narrative from players into the hands of mechanics. It isn't role playing, so much as describing what happens on an event card, and (b) the ability of the GM to make narrative decisions is restricted by his use of ruin tokens.

It is true that it is my preference to play without cards in general at all, and also my preference to play a game without ignoring whole sections of it. Though I hardly see how the latter alleviates my criticisms of what we have heard. 'Just ignore it' is pretty much agreeing something is bad, but insisting we all pretend it isn't for no discernible reason.

Also I am not 'upset'. It is a discussion board, and I'm discussing the things we've heard. Your comment wasn't clever, don't be rude.

*witty comment regarding table top gaming* 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
So, you're upset at not being able to use a part of the rules you don't like?

I think this is all just preference, rather than a flaw in the game, yes?


No, they're upset that a part of the rules they probably would like to use is gated behind a mechanic they dislike.

Like, lets say Wrath & Glory version 2 rolls around, and they decide to take weapon criticals and make them dependent on you IRL shooting at a target with a dart gun sold to you in an expansion. You might think that sounds like fun, or that it sounds moronic, but thinking it sounds moronic doesn't mean you think the basic idea of weapon criticals are moronic or you don't want to use them, you just don't like that particular unnecessarily gimmicky implementation of them.

And that's the thing - for a lot of RPG players, deck-based mechanics are a gimmick, because everything they can do that's worth doing can be done in other ways that don't require you to fiddle about with a bunch of small items you can lose or damage much more easily than a big honking book of rules, and because they're often used as a way for companies to charge more money for things than they could if they were just part of the basic rules, because they've taken what would have just been a few extra pages of a book and made them into a big bunch of physical things, which our dumb ape brains can be easily tricked into seeing as extra value(and I'm not saying that's why people who like cards like cards, before anyone pops a blood vessel, just that if you ask people how much they'd pay for five pages of rules and how much they'd pay for a deck of cards, most will pay more for the latter even though the actual rules content ie the purpose of the things is the same).

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
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 Grinshanks wrote:
No, I believe the use of cards as described is a flaw in the game because (a) it takes control of the narrative from players into the hands of mechanics. It isn't role playing, so much as describing what happens on an event card, and (b) the ability of the GM to make narrative decisions is restricted by his use of ruin tokens.

Ironic, isn't it, that in their effort to encourage people to roleplay they're in fact writing roll-playing into the system

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
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Having run about five or six Wrath & Glory games at Origins for Ulisses NA, I can happily report that you don't need any of the card decks to run the game. I made do with the lite version of the Core Rules presented in the Free RPG Day pack and some dice. As far as I know, the card decks were only used in games that the developers themselves - mainly Ross Watson & Wendelyn Reischl - ran.

From what Ulisses NA has said, you are free to use the tables in the Core Book or the optional card decks. If you want to use the card decks, awesome. If you don't, cool. You'll just need the Core Book.
   
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These card decks are optional, so they're not restricting anyone in any way, If you don't like the idea of having an outside force influence the story of your campaign, then they're not for you - and they wouldn't be if they were a table in the rulebook either.

I admit, I envy those of you who are better than me at storytelling (my Star Wars campaign petered out because I simply couldn't keep up as a GM), but I quite like all these different ways of adding behaviour cues to players. If it were the only way of doing things, then yes, that could be a problem. Looking at the example on the web article, that's the sort of thing players can do anyway, so nothing game-breaking" But why bother with the cards if you can do it anyway? because players may not have the experience to know they can do that sort of thing.

When I said "preference rather than flaw" I was meaning the idea of presenting game rules on cards rather than in books, not these Campaign Cards specifically. From my point of view, having, say, a deck of weapon cards or a deck of cards describing each class's special traits is better than putting tables or charts in the rules because I can dish out the cards to the relevant players rather than having to pass a large heavy rulebook across a living room.

The things that slow down our games are players needing to ask about or look up a rule, or getting a new item of equipment or skill and needing to copy the information onto their character sheet. Much quicker to say "you've found a heavy plasma gun" and pass the card to the player who's found it.

For reference, we don't play around a table - we play in living rooms, with each player in a chair or on a sofa. If I were playing a psyker, I'd find it easier to stick that deck of Perils of the Warp cards down the side of the chair and draw the top one when needed than to get up, get the rulebook from the GM and look in there, but different groups have different requirements. Drawing a card also feels more ... impersonal, than rolling a die. If the GM rolls a die and something bad happens I blame him. If it[s a card, well that's just the universe messing with me.

I admit, I'm not fond of the "leave the next critical hit face-up" idea - I understand the things they were wanting to achieve, but I don't see how this rule achieves that.
   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

People keep saying "optional", but if they're adding extra stuff that isn't available in other ways whether you can choose not to use them is less the issue than if you do choose not to then you have one less tool in your toolbox.

Nobody objects to options, they object to gating content behind one of those options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/21 15:30:36


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
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Michigan

Yodhrin, I see the cards as optional because I don't really see them as a rules source. They're not adding game rules, they're not really adding character traits or anything, they're basically just sample narrative options. They're things that you'd be working out with your GM anyway. I see them as training wheels more than anything, but I've been playing RPGs for 20 years.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






True, but in this instance, everyone who is objecting to the options only being in the form of a card deck are also objecting to the game mechanic these cards represent. No-one has yet said "I really like the idea of the campaign cards, but I wish they were in the rulebook, because I don't like using cards in my RPGs". The closest to that would have been FFG spreading the stats for PC alien races across multiple sourcebooks so that if you want to play a particular alien you need to pick up the sourcebook for a career type you're never going to use.
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...


Oh Dakka, you never fail...

When a new source book comes out updating and expanding: Marines, Inquisitors, Eldar... will we complain that those books are necessary and that the core game is incomplete? Of course we will. Back in the real world, if you don't want to use the cards you don't have to. If you read the referring page you'll find out the decks aren't always the players friends and you might not want expanded and updated nastiness happening to your precious little snowflake. The cards are not necessary to play the game. Your enjoyment may be improved by using the cards, but that doesn't mean the core book is incomplete. Some people might not want to use the cards for reasons other than not liking using cards, like say the actual content.
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.

Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.

Effectively, what they're selling us is Pen and Paper DLC. Since we already know that the cards are designed right in, this does mean that material that would have otherwise been IN the book is held back, to make the new 'expanded' material found only in the cards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Chairman Aeon wrote:
. The cards are not necessary to play the game..


And, in theory, you can play 40k without ever buying a Codex. Try it sometime.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 00:55:35



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
 
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