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Thunderfrog wrote:Sure you can cast some powers to keep them from tabling you, but being reduced to a 5++ against flamers of Tzeentch and a lot of ward-rerolling red daemons of blood letting, your expensive grey knights poof pretty quickly.

1. Fateweaver shot by psycannons is wounded on 2s, and has no better than a 4+ cover save. That drops wounds taken from 1/9 to 1/4. If the Vindicaire really does have an invul-removing special round, Fatebomb just left the meta.

2. Mishap within 12" of the casting Librarian or Difficult/Dangerous terrain tests during movement and assault makes getting to GKs a problem. Flamers that can't shoot first turn get pinged by stormbolters.

3. Storm bolter fire from 10 PAGK reduces a 20 model bloodletter squad to 16. Every model wounded on 4+ at I10 reduces 16 to 10. 20-30 preferred enemy attacks at higher I due to terrain or halberds takes 10 down to 5 or 2, if getting charged or charging. Fearless wounds wipe the rest. Bloodletter still kill between 2-7 PAGKs, but you lost 300 points and I've still got a chunk of my 250 left--a big chunk if it was me charging you.

4. Warding Staves are 2++.

I'm not going to try to claim that the sky is falling and daemon players should just sell their armies and quit the game, but GK are definintely not just 'normal marines' that you steamroll in the assault. Psycannons are a huge problem for many of the 'bigger' daemons, and the I10 wound-on-4+ is a huge problem for all of the smaller daemons.

I'm glad to see GK will have access to razorbacks because the premise of most competitive marine army is razorback spam.

It's hard enough to believe anyone would claim Daemons are competitive in today's meta.

It's incredibly hard to believe anyone would claim Daemons can be competitive against an army...that has inherent special rules...against them.....


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olympia wrote:I'm glad to see GK will have access to razorbacks because the premise of most competitive marine army is razorback spam.

Actually, GK Razorspam might be one of the more competitive. They have an inherent power to ignore shaken/stunned...depends on their cost I guess.

AgeOfEgos wrote:It's hard enough to believe anyone would claim Daemons are competitive in today's meta.

It's incredibly hard to believe anyone would claim Daemons can be competitive against an army...that has inherent special rules...against them.....

Daemon's won 'Ard Boyz against the big OTT armies on the West Coast last year.

pretre wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:It's hard enough to believe anyone would claim Daemons are competitive in today's meta.

It's incredibly hard to believe anyone would claim Daemons can be competitive against an army...that has inherent special rules...against them.....

Daemon's won 'Ard Boyz against the big OTT armies on the West Coast last year.

I'm not going to argue if Daemons are competitive in a GK thread...I probably should have left that first line out so I'll take responsibility for the response. However, I would strongly urge to search for Redbeard's thoughts on the subjects as he explained it to a higher degree of clarity than I can (Plus I'm sure he has more experience playing them).

bhsman wrote:

KingCracker wrote:He might of said it alot, but it doesnt make him any less wrong. I honestly am hoping half those rumors are just made up and get tossed out. Because seriously, the basic PAGK would have to cost in the 30s to even all the gak out that they are "getting" its completely BS to a Xenos player the things they are sticking into Imperium codices. And you cannot argue with that

It's foolhardy to say this now rather than six months post-release. Remember all the hand-wringing over Blood Angels and Nids when some of their rumors were being thrown out? Now Nids are a decent codex and Blood Angels, while a bit flashy in terms of rules, aren't exactly considering that bad, either. I seriously doubt there will be the same level of angst over this codex in a few months than now when all we have are echoes of truth and nothing seen for ourselves yet.

So remember: chill, not cheese.

You know putting it that way, I do see your point. I remember reading the rumors on Nids and thinking "They fething regenerate?! SERIOUSLY!?!?" And thats not really a big deal. I remember reading about how the doom of malantai can steal wounds and just murder tanks! And sure it does that-ish, but its not as crazy as it was listed. I still think the BA are over powered, but not as bad as the first rumors. And like you said, most of the crap that I dont like about them is just flashy BS. I mean yea, they DS their landraiders. but uhm......they are a sitting duck for a turn

Out of the rumors for the GK that I simply just hate, is the fact that Stern removes models. I dont know WHY GW started tossing in that rule here and there but I just hate it. Why should you just remove models? That is game breaking IMO. You want to show the guy is just a badass thats fine, you can do that easy enough without "removing models" Hell Thraka is in the top 5 most badassed, badasses in the game, and he doesnt just remove models from play.

KingCracker wrote:Out of the rumors for the GK that I simply just hate, is the fact that Stern removes models. I dont know WHY GW started tossing in that rule here and there but I just hate it. Why should you just remove models? That is game breaking IMO.

Stern can remove his own models as well. That's a big thing to keep in mind in lists that can tie up 900 points in 11 dudes.

I think Stern is going to be pretty rare considering his abilities are nothing above and beyond what a normal BC can do, can be beneficial to your opponent (rerolling saves), and have a possibility to instawipe your very own 50 point models off the table.

The two things that need to be confirmed, in my mind, for GK to be declared 'THE BORKEN' or not, are whether warding saves really are 2++ saves that act as power weapons in CC, and even more significant, whether the storm bolter grants a universal +1 attack.

In my mind there's a big difference between PAGK charging/charged getting 30/20 or 20/10 attacks with power weapons.

And 2++ warding staves on 3 models can be the difference between being willing to Scout/Infiltrate 10 Terminators 18 inches away from opponent deployment on T1 and... not being willing to do that.

You do realise the irony in that statement?

I am sure by now that you are a well-seasoned enough general to know just how MEQ-Counter the Chaos Daemons codex still is to this day (and you probably remember how DRAMATICALLY OP it was against marines pre-5th edition). The reason for that imbalance (and the only real answer SMs had was LRs) was more then likely due to the fluff supporting that Daemons typically ruin the day of most SM chapters on a good weekly/monthly basis (unless you're Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, then you get it more!).

That same fluff shows scores of GKs decimating those same Daemons, why is that? Because GKs were made to kill Daemons... GW admitted this in the last incarnation of the DH codex by giving daemons some snazzy rules when forced to play against the GKs, to compensate for the obvious vulnerabilities in the codex... if the GKs get them again, that will be nothing more then charity for Daemon players (whose rules I am sure will still apply to other "daemon" ruled units like the Avatar, without the fun bonuses).

TBH you shouldn't need it... for the same reason SM players didn't quit when Codex: Chaos Daemons came out, due to the infrequency of match-ups.

Daemons aren't specifically anti-meq. It's just that the game is so 3+ oriented that smart players have the ability to deal with heavy armored troops in their take all comers lists. My Daemons do fine regardless of army matchup. I think the misconception comes from the fact that Marines are easier to play against because they are seen more and because of this people plan accordingly.

If someone in your gaming group (of friends) is specifically playing GKs to ruin your day as a C:CD player, then they aren't really much of a friend now are they? (not to mention, you can easily limit your on-table interactions with that player.

If you are worried about facing them in a tourny with your army that costs "hundreds of dollars" just don't go to any major tournies where you know that A: Everyone will be playing GKs, or B: Is slated around 1-2 months after the codex release, given the obvious weakness to vehicle-lists in the GK codex, and the current meta-game HEAVILY favoring MECH, I don't think you will have this issue too often (or that if someone is taking the new GK to a tourny, they probably A: Aren't that competitive of a player, so aren't as much as a challenge AND B: Probably aren't tailoring their list for a 30+ member tournement to fight that ~1 C;CD player out there so you should really have little worry)

This really shouldn't be too much of a concern for you in the long run, so 1/8 MEQ armies have rules that counter your Daemons quite well, good thing your rules work pretty well against the other ~90%.

Sure, and I reserve final judgment until the codex comes out. I suppose I just don't like some of the Inv save circumventing and characteristic testing non-sense that GW is leaning toward in general. My main point was that if the army gets preferred enemy and everything else toward my units, I should get at LEAST one small advantage to counteract that. They did it last time. Hopefully they do it this time.

I mean, its not like people aren't playing Nids cause DE counter them, its not like people don't play Orks cause BA/TAU/IG counter them, its not like people don't play IG cause Space Wolves(argueably) count them... the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" aspect of 40K has been around for quite a while now, the new GK codex is no exceptoin.

Quite frankly, I find my self surprised by the LACK of rumors supporting rules that allow the GKs to walk all over Daemons, with the current rules, it seems that a 3xSoulgrinder+Kugath+Taker/Epidemus list would walk all over these guys, and in my world, if Scissors can Beat Rock, then something isn't adding up!


Other then that, still looking foward to playing these guys with my Wolves, I think it will be an interesting match up if I sent some Lone-Wolves after this splendiforus "dread-knight" thingy!

~DAR

Sure, the game is inhirently imbalanced. But that doesn't mean we need specific targets to ensure one sided fights. I just don't know about Soul Grinders. Sure, they would be ok versus Grey Knights but what if you aren't a counter picker? I don't think they have the survivability in the current meta they need to justify a take all comers build. I suppose we will have to see the final product though.



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It's hard enough to believe anyone would claim Daemons are competitive in today's meta.

It's incredibly hard to believe anyone would claim Daemons can be competitive against an army...that has inherent special rules...against them.....

That's just a ridiculous statement. They have very solid advantages in a take all comers environment. If your opponent counterpicks...yes, they will lose. If not, they are viable. See Ard Boyz winner last year for proof.

Is it just me or is rending the exact opposite of what GK should have? Rending gives no advantage vs demons, in fact the opposite is correct. It feels like GW hamfisted rending onto these weapons. Unless that is, they ignore invuln AND are rending. That would be a little nuts, but at least appropriate.

Probably to squeeze in some form of inherited anti mech without having to include non fluffy weapon options like lascannons and meltaguns I think.

The two things that need to be confirmed, in my mind, for GK to be declared 'THE BORKEN' or not, are whether warding saves really are 2++ saves that act as power weapons in CC, and even more significant, whether the storm bolter grants a universal +1 attack.

Its not that simple. A 2++ save is not by default OP nor is pistol counting stormbolters.
It all depends on the point cost.

Vanguard jumppack marines were incredibly OP and broken that is untill we saw what those pieces of crap actually cost in points.

Giving a terminator a 2++ save for 5 points is broken, giving it for 20-30p is balanced and giving it for 40p is UP.

Think about it, you take 5 terminators for 200 points and those are not even upgraded with anything.
Then you spend 75p extra to give 3 of them 2++ saves and then some 20p to give one a psycannon and all of a sudden your 5 terminators cost 300p, die just as easy to small arms fire and STILL have dedicated hardcouter units.
Hardly OP anymore.

And giving just one a 2++ save is almost useless, a plasmacannon or oblit squad will cause 3-6 armour negating wounds easily so you still loose the 4 other guys not having the 2++ and all of a sudden you have one 2++ terminator walking about, hardly any OP threat any more.

The GK OPness vs balance will come from wargear point costs, it will most probably be a tight walk between just affording a few "OP" wargears sprinkled throughout the army to be effective, to much and the army will be useless, to little and you´ll loose serious power but get a lot more models in the army.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Actually, GK Razorspam might be one of the more competitive. They have an inherent power to ignore shaken/stunned...depends on their cost I guess.

Razorbacks do NOT have the fortitude power and cannot get it.. Theyre the only vehicle that does not have it. I think GW thought ahead on that one

Kirasu wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Actually, GK Razorspam might be one of the more competitive. They have an inherent power to ignore shaken/stunned...depends on their cost I guess.

Razorbacks DO not have the fortitude power and cannot get it.. Theyre the only vehicle that does not have it. I think GW thought ahead on that one

Ahh, someone did think ahead then . Good catch (to you and whomever wrote the rules)!


I haven't seen anything to stop the Scouting/Teleporting DreadKnights though...they can get the ability right?

Those rending psy-cannons sound pretty awful. It's the best tank-popping weapon short of a melta, right? I hope it gets priced accordingly!

AgeOfEgos wrote:I haven't seen anything to stop the Scouting/Teleporting DreadKnights though...they can get the ability right?

Apparently, yes. It's +75p though; still not bad for a MC with those stats and abilites.

@ Pyriel -

It wasn't the cost of Vanguard wargear options that broke Vanguard, it was the cost of their jump packs.

Many of the wargear costs are now known, whether the rumors will match the reality or not is still up in the air, of course. Warding staves look to cost 25 ppm.

For 715 points, you get 10 2 wound GK Terms with 2 psycannons and 2 warding staves. That's a terrifying amount of wound soakage. It shouldn't be very lash-able (Hood, Aegis) and has no reason at all to bunch up for plasma cannons. If Oblits want to get that close to rapid fire plasma, that's fine, you take 2 2++ and 2 5++ and charge them in CC, crushing them utterly.

Yeah dreadknights can get the personal teleporter.. Im only curious to know if you can shunt during a scout move. That would be a bit crazy

I'll believe it when I see it. I think its going to be a pretty terrible dex if upgrading your sword to a halberd makes you init 10, thats just stupid! I think that this whole codex has been wish listed to death.

Mantle wrote:I'll believe it when I see it. I think its going to be a pretty terrible dex if upgrading your sword to a halberd makes you init 10, thats just stupid! I think that this whole codex has been wish listed to death.

Halberds are +1I. Dial down the outrage.

Upgrading to Halberd is supposed to give you +1 initiative, not +6.

There is a Psychic power that can increase a units initiative to 10 however...

The 'dreadknight as MC' seems like a bit of a odd decision. It makes sense to make Wraithlords 'special' that they're MCs while Dreadnoughts are vehicles. The Dreadnight seems as much a 'vehicle' as a Sentinel (which has meager crew protection) or similar. I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense, even including wacky Eldar wraithbone constructs and theoretical necron MCs (due to living metal allowing them to 'heal' and react more like a living creature than a machine.

pretre wrote:

Mantle wrote:I'll believe it when I see it. I think its going to be a pretty terrible dex if upgrading your sword to a halberd makes you init 10, thats just stupid! I think that this whole codex has been wish listed to death.

Halberds are +1I. Dial down the outrage.

haha sorry I thought I saw someone mention I10 further back, but still i'd like to know how a halberd makes you faster than someone with a sword

You'll be taking it with a Greyn of salt, then?

I think this is the new standard for flexibility in a dex if the rumors are true. you could build a totally offensive army that dumps 3 MC , the Ghost Knight guy, and a Callidus assassin in the enemy's line the first turn and spend the rest of the game in melee, or you could take the slow approach and build nearly unkillable blocks of the toughest troops in the game backed up by shooty units that no one wants to charge. Or, you could split the difference and run hordes of mixed light fighters with bizarre abilities and weapons.

Through it all, there are people just itching for a crack at multi-wound models and units that pack templates for hordes.

I'm sure there will be other archetypes, but on the face of things this codex can do it all. What remains to be seen is what it does best, and what it can do well, and what will be the most cost efficient.

Mantle wrote:haha sorry I thought I saw someone mention I10 further back, but still i'd like to know how a halberd makes you faster than someone with a sword

Perhaps representing greater reach?

Just Dave wrote:Upgrading to Halberd is supposed to give you +1 initiative, not +6.

There is a Psychic power that can increase a units initiative to 10 however...

ah yes, I keep forgetting about the PAGK and others getting psychic powers in the new dex


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Balance wrote:

Mantle wrote:haha sorry I thought I saw someone mention I10 further back, but still i'd like to know how a halberd makes you faster than someone with a sword

Perhaps representing greater reach?

I suppose but halberds aren't exactly that much longer, and have a huge blade on the end. It looks like the PAGK are toting some pretty big sanguinary guard sized swords

Well, its (apparently) a Librarian only psychic power that can be cast on other units, but yeah...

As for the +1 initiative on the Halberd? I think it could represent the extra reach, but ultimately is just another different piece of wargear...

Just Dave wrote:Well, its (apparently) a Librarian only psychic power that can be cast on other units, but yeah...

As for the +1 initiative on the Halberd? I think it could represent the extra reach, but ultimately is just another different piece of wargear...

that sounds more believable, I can see what you mean by the halberd, when I imagine CC I see the guys already locked swords (or whatever other weapon) in which case a big cumbersome halberd might not be as useful as a sword etc.

Balance wrote: I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense,

Considering that a Dreadknight is pretty much a GKT in the Power Loader from Aliens, I'd say that it's pretty "'alive' in some sense".

Platuan4th wrote:

Balance wrote: I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense,

Considering that a Dreadknight is pretty much a GKT in the Power Loader from Aliens, I'd say that it's pretty "'alive' in some sense".

Yeah but it's probably got 50% more biomass in total than your average Astartes Dreadnought. When the vastest majority of the model is non-sentient mechanical, I think walker status is more appropriate.

But hey, GW wants flying powerloader armor suits for armor suits. Whatevah.

I dont know if it has been posted yet but will the dreadknight be having a stat line like a wraithlord or will it have an armor value?


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I'd guss stat line

Just Dave wrote:Well, its (apparently) a Librarian only psychic power that can be cast on other units, but yeah...

As for the +1 initiative on the Halberd? I think it could represent the extra reach, but ultimately is just another different piece of wargear...

Aren't all the nemesis force weapons (of all stripes) supposed to channel the psychic power of their weilder? I suppose you could just assume something about the halberd gives the knights a psychically channeled speed boost..

Mantle wrote:I dont know if it has been posted yet but will the dreadknight be having a stat line like a wraithlord or will it have an armor value?


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I'd guss stat line

Considering the 2 posts above yours are specifically about it being a MC, your reading skills are massive fail.

sourclams wrote:

Yeah but it's probably got 50% more biomass in total than your average Astartes Dreadnought. When the vastest majority of the model is non-sentient mechanical, I think walker status is more appropriate.

But hey, GW wants flying powerloader armor suits for armor suits. Whatevah.

But if it was a walker it'd have to be something like AV 10/12/13 Open-topped, and that would be both stupid and terrible. And they couldn't have their shiny new model backed up by terrible rules, could they?