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*Kicks the horse again*
We'll see how much money they make off the new ork list, personally I expect it to be massively popular.
If it ever gets released.
What you fail to take into account is burnout of the fanbase due to this kind of crap.
If GW rely on word of mouth, and previously enthusiastic, club starting gamers like myself begin to detest them and stop bothering with newbies etc, that ain't gonna be good, neither.
(Obviously only on a large scale- I'm not concieted enough to think I have any major effect on sales!)

Posted By Da Boss on 04/26/2007 9:24 AM
*Kicks the horse again*
We'll see how much money they make off the new ork list, personally I expect it to be massively popular.
If it ever gets released.
What you fail to take into account is burnout of the fanbase due to this kind of crap.
If GW rely on word of mouth, and previously enthusiastic, club starting gamers like myself begin to detest them and stop bothering with newbies etc, that ain't gonna be good, neither.

I'm not a 100% sure on "massively" popular Orks - but we'll see... (there are some core problems with the Ork koncept that will prevent them from ever being an army that is as popular as Space Marines - namely the number of boyz you have to buy and paint. Unpainted plastic space marines look (badly) like guys in grey armor. Unpainted orks just look terrible. )

Oh - and I am not failing to take burnout into account. I'm just separating my personal opinions from the argument. I think they SHOULD do more with the xenos and less with the marines. I just understand why GW may not want to. Heck - *I'm* nearly burnt out - the last 9 months I've purchased  3 items total - and one of the releases was for one of my armies! (Eldar Codex, Dark Angel Codex and DA Vet Squad. I've spent more on Aeronautica Imperialis in the past 2 months than I have on all other GW related products combined for the past year.

My personal opinion is my argument. There's no seperating it.
I'm fed up of 40K in a lot of ways, but I still love fantasy. Great game, great rules, great release strategy.
I'm sorry for coming across as a bitter old fart, but i get really sick of the arguments I posted above.

Anyway, I also play chaos, (death gaurd, converted from plastic marines and zombies) and the new changes don't worry me too much. If they're true. I'll still play 'em- they'll no doubt still be viable. It's interesting that at the time, the Chaos codex was seen as the template for 4th ed codices, and now it's being redone. Before Orks.
*pops a blood vessel*
But no matter. If GW looks like it's being run by indecisive, arsehole ten year olds so be it.

Sometime in 2006 GW had a complete reversal about what they wanted 40K 4th to be.

No, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

They really need to get it sorted.
Seriously.

They will , ( Waves Hand in front of Self )

Heh heh, we shouldn't hold our breath. Listening to GW talking about their game systems is often like watching the Bush administration discuss their failing policies. Not acceptance that anything is fundamentally not working and complete denial. Its refreshing that they will even admit to something being wrong with fourth edition. Its just too bad that solution is to go back to power armoured armies (who saw that one coming). That fact is that whether we like it or not they're changing things, and we won't know for better or worse till we have the majority of these new dexs out and can see the new balance. Its not like GW has really cared much about what we faithfuls have to say. Most of their decisions are geared to getting more people in the hobby. Those of us who have been playing for years are just assumed to continue to buy their products. In other words we're already infected and have long reached the terminal stage in most cases.

I think it has something to do with better balance for overall play.

I hope so. I try to be optimistic, but it's hard. I'm a very cynical kind of person.
I hope it plays like a dream. And thinks like daemon princes and whatnot needed a toning down.
Sher we'll see when we see I suppose.
I'm more curious than apprehensive over all.
I wouldn't be suprised if Daemons were allowed chaos marks like marines, thus making them as individual as cult marines, which would be enough for me. As for greater daemons, I'd rather they kept their statlines seperate, but it's had to balance.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Abadabadoobaddon. Chaos has, and has always had, more potential for multiple codexes than loyalists. However, we've all gone way past being shocked that we get blue Marines, grey Marines, black Marines, green Marines, red Marines and so and forth before we get new armies. Like you so eloquently put it, we must get Blood Angels before we get Orks, Dark Eldar etc. because Blood Angels looooove jump packs and that makes them so very different to Ultramarines that they're like a whole new race! I think I came to the point of having enough of 40K altogether when I first saw the new Codex: Black Templars that took almost a year to design. All of the new rules could've been printed on half a page, or less.

Now I'm pretty impartial to all of this as I've long ago sold all of my 40K armies and instead been hoarding FB armies. Fantasy Battle is heading to the right direction mainly because the head designer Alessio Cavatore is a real gamer who is gently pushing Tuomas Pirinen's invention to a more core infantry friendly direction. When Alessio designs rules he isn't making them with his five year old daughter in mind.

Yeah that breally pissed me off.
If Jervis's son played orks, would his speeches be more like "Hey, I was talking to my son, and he said to me, do you know what he said? He said "Dad, Orks suck. I never win any games." And that made me think. It made me think that Orks suck, so now I've realigned our entire system to make them rock. It's important to keep in touch with these type of things, as a Dad."

Alessio Cavatore did Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts and Skaven didn't he? Yeah, great track record there. He is getting better though...

WHFB has been going quite some time with the same system. It is more polished at this point, where as 40k basically did a system reset. It's going to be a bit bumpy until they polish it up over the years.

WHFB still has it's balance issues....

Orks are coming. have patience. They don't overbalance anything and are getting a huge overhaul from all indications. I still have a great time beating up on marines with them. BA and Chaos take a lot less work, and go a long way to balancing everything overall. If they can change Orks so it can compete with Tau and Eldar, we have gone a lot further towards a game where most armies can participate.

I have had a lot of patience.
As in, I haven't sold my army yet.

I have actually been buying more orks. Been having a great time lately playing them again. 1500pts changes a lot of things really.

Toreador I don't know if you've been paying attention but Alessio Cavatore wrote the FB 7th edition. What he did with army books in the past is proof that he wants armies to have real punch in them and he isn't afraid of using them either. He's played a Skaven Skryre gunline at tournaments. He knows what it means to play seriously and what players will be looking for in army books. Anthony Reynolds did the same when he wrote for example the Lizardmen and Brets. It's guys like Jervis who don't fit the picture. They think about their five year old kid and whether the kid's going to have trouble understanding the meaning of all the wargear.



WHFB 6th edition was an entire system reset from 5th edition, and now the new 7th edition is a refined version. 40K 3rd edition was a system reset, and 4th edition was the refined version. 40K should've been balanced long ago.



What are those exactly? Flyers still a tad too powerful? Skirmishers still very damn useful? All-cav armies still popular? Masses of cheap and expendable infantry popular? Gunlines still very popular? Heavy magic still very effective despite the nerfs? Oh wait, I've just named all the different types of armies or stratagems as very powerful and popular. Any FB GT can be won by many variants of atleast Wood Elves, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Chaos, Bretonnians, Lizardmen, or Skaven, and with a better than average player also by Empire, O&G, Dark Elves, High Elves, or Ogres. The same can really not be said of 40K. FB doesn't have Space Marines or armied based on Space Marines, or MEQ. FB has a wide variety of races that have a wide variety of advantages and disadvantages.

WHFB 7th edition is almost perfect as a game. If we got one page of Q&A with proper answers from GW to a couple of rules disputes it would be flawless but even those can easily be solved on a tournament by tournament basis or by major unofficial FAQs like Direwolf. We'll never get that Q&A but understanding how few issues we actually have gives us some perspective. Now the army book development is leading towards the direction where core infantry is slightly lowered in price and increased in ability in order to make the slow and unwieldly units more attractive than before. An Orc Boyz unit is pretty much the best deal in the game right now, and the cheaper Empire State Troops with their detachment rules aren't bad at all either.

There's another really simple reason that we're being inundated with SM's and spinoffs.  SM's have always been the baseline army that all other armies are compared against when it comes to game balance.  They basically are the standard.  That's why the codex's for them and their spinoffs come out first/early.  They're that "baseline" army that determines whether the other armies are too strong or too weak.  Dark Angels are that new baseline,at least until C:SM is redone.  However,releasing a new BA list in a White Dwarf will allow them to generate more test data for their new direction without having to postpone another 'dex,like Orks.

GW is running into conflicting needs.  They need to put out SM lists to use to balance the "new" 4th ed,but at the same time,the Chaos 'dex is ridiculously broken and needs to be redone and the Orks need upgraded badly. 

A big reason why GW pushes hard for noobs is the simple fact that the lifespan of the average 40k player is only 3 years.  Then,they get out of it.  The #1 reason people get out of it is losing.  When 3rd came out,a bunch of people at my local shop started getting into 40k.  Most of us that started with Marine armies are still playing the game today.  However,every single one that started with Dark Eldar had sold all their stuff and completely gotten out of the game a year later.  That's because they couldn't win a game.  I've NEVER seen DE win.  A lot of this can be contributed to the fact that a lot of the options in the DE list weren't available yet.  However,the DE players got frustrated with getting spanked all the time and got out of the game rather than tough it out and sink more $ into what they felt was a sinking ship.  Now imagine being a noob and going up against the current Chaos list or 'zilla nids. 

Some good points comming up. Who among us if given the title of 40k Overlord wouldn't abuse it a bit an favour an army or two. I think the biggest reason so many get into 40k and don't last is mainly the targeted age group. GW has come to the conclusion that the easiest way to boost short term sales is to sell to 10-14 yr olds who either have plenty of disposable income, or have parents who do. To believe that most of these kids are going to stay GW faithfuls is naive at best. I myself started 40k at 12 and have been playing for 11 yrs. But I know a dozen or so who gave it up after a year at most.

I don't believe that every army can be perfectly balanced. A few will always be a bit better, and usually this will be the most popular. Its easy for noobs to the hobby to take up a race they like without doing much research before deciding. If GW were to have some policy on informing noobs about the virtue of certain armies (e.i. the few that are difficult to play) perhaps we'd have a more stable playing community. Though of course GW would never admit such a thing to noobies.

Perhaps I'm extra cynical. But I'm not going to ask GW to redo every dex till they're all equal. I look forward to a new Ork and DE dex, while I slightly dread the new BA and chaos dexs. Nothing I've ever seen has ever shown to me that GW is willing to change anything based on what us faithfuls really want changed. I'm trying hard to keep this from sounding like a rant. It just seems to me that most GW game designers have a sort of "I am the chosen of the gods" feeling about their role and that none of the actual players have any valid suggestions.

Personally I'm too deep to get out now. Whether GW nerfs all my armies or not I won't dump it. I feel no particular loyalty to GW, I just love the game and the fluff. As a history buff its the most expansive backround I've ever seen. It would be nice if GW would stop jerking around and make their minds up, but I won't hold my breath.

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Tell me - Why do Demons *have* to have different stat lines.

Why does anything *have* to have different stat lines?

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Times and versions change. Who picks Horrors any more? Nobody. Why? - because they SUCK by comparison to other demons. Why are Bloodletters ludicrously popular? because they are amazing for their points costs.

The solution?  Give Horrors and Bloodletters the same rules.  Brilliant!

Who picks Thousand Sons any more?  Nobody.  Why?   Because they SUCK by comparison to other legions.  Why are Iron Warriors ludicrously popular?  Because they are amazing for their pts costs.  The solution?  Give Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors the same rules.  I think this technique could be expanded to balance all of 40K!

Who picks Orks any more?  Nobody.  Why?   Because they SUCK by comparison to other armies.  Why are Space Marines ludicrously popular?  Because they are amazing for their pts costs.  The solution?  Give Orks and Space Marines Warriors the same rules.  Hey, this is fun!  I should be a games designer!

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Look, no one is saying - "no other demons exist anymore". They are saying "look - Demonettes, Bloodletters, and Horrors all fulfill about the same role on the battlefield, should be about the same power level, and *should* do about the same amount of damage." They get summoned - they attack, they kill things or get killed.

I could apply that same argument to every unit in the game.  Afterall, every unit fulfills about the same role on the battlefield (to defeat the enemy), right?

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
After all - it's a only a d6 scale. If the abilities of the demons are within 16% of each other in an area  -they SHOULD have the same basic stat. Throw in a few lines of  "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent  Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of demons in one unit entry. Why take up multiple entries if one can do it this way.

This is a good idea which should be expanded.  For example, they could just release a Codex: Xenos.  Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of xenos in one codex.  Why take up multiple codices if one can do it this way?  So you could have your tough aliens (+1T = Orks), your fast aliens (+1I = Eldar), your shooty aliens (+1BS = Tau), your gribbly aliens (+1S = Tyranids), your robot aliens (+1Sv = Necrons), and your puny human aliens (no modifications = Imperial Guard).

Not only would this shut up all those whiney Ork players (boohoo, we haven't got a codex in 10 years!), it would also immediately bring Tyranids, Tau, and Eldar more in line with the power level established by the Dark Angel codex.  And best of all, it would free up space on the release schedule for a Codex: Death Company!!  SWEET!!!

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Secondly - repeat after me:  "Rules mechanics do not equal background and vice versa."

Not necessarily.  When's the last time you heard mention of a Fiend of Slaanesh?  Or a Squat?  Or a Zoat?  They change the background to fit the rules and the models all the time.  If they phase something out in the rules and don't mention it in any more then it pretty much ceases to exist as part of the background.

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Are GW unfair in the way they distribute Codices? Yes. Just ask an Ork player. Chaos is going to have had 2 full revisions (and god knows how many changes inserted in different print runs) between the Ork codices. But then again - business has NOTHING to do with fairness...

Yes I know.  GW is a business and 40K is a product.  But so is McDonalds.  That doesn't mean I have to like eating crap.

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
Space Marines make GW money - and let them stay in business so they can print stuff like Chaos and Eldar codices.

I would rather they NOT print Chaos and Eldar codices if they're just going to smear their pages with feces.  Let them screw up all 1000 Space Marine chapters first.

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
What I'm saying is this - stop frothing and wait and see. Yes - Chaos is due a minor downpowering.  But who DIDN'T see that coming? Other than that , we simply don't know enough about what is coming to get worked up about it yet.

Oh I have not yet begun to froth, baby!  I've been expecting this ever since the Eldar codex and I'm itching to start getting worked up in earnest.  Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised, but I've been waiting for a long time and the only surprises I've gotten have been of the oops-I-crapped-my-pants variety.

I know Chaos is due a downpowering.  That doesn't bother me at all.  What bothers me is the wholesale elimination of units that have been distinct since Rogue Trader.  What bothers me is that they are making every legion = Black Legion (just don't take units X, Y, and Z to be fluffy).  What bothers me is that all this is occuring while they scratch their heads and try to invent enough ways Blood Angels could be "different" from Ultramarines to fill up an entire codex.

Posted By WarsmithDave on 04/26/2007 5:36 PM
I don't believe that every army can be perfectly balanced. A few will always be a bit better, and usually this will be the most popular. Its easy for noobs to the hobby to take up a race they like without doing much research before deciding.

This is why it is actually in GW's interest for Space Marines to be more powerful and popular than other armies.  The profit margins on Space Marines are higher than on other armies because of the large number of SM plastic kits (after the initial investment plastic is cheaper than metal to produce) so the greater the % of players with SM armies the better.  And by getting almost everyone to play a marines and then constantly focusing on them they can satisfy a larger number of people than if there were a more even distribution of players.  This then means that rules imbalances aren't as problematic as long as marines wind up near the top (who cares if Orks are underpowered?).  Finally, since beginners are encouraged to play marines, giving them powerful rules helps retain new players (losing all the time isn't fun).

So you have a system that relies on attracting new players (ages 10-14), selling them a bunch of marine plastics, and retaining them for as long as possible (usually a couple years).  If they become regulars then great, if not then no matter - noobs can be replaced.

The point about plastic kits applies to any army,though.  GW's trend is more towards plastic for everything,plastic Termies and Demons for Chaos,for example.  Imperial Guard are almost entirely plastic now. 

Marines have always been popular for many reasons. 

1-They are human,which makes players feel like they're playing for the home team,but unlike IG,they are super-powered bad-ass humans instead of disposable cannon fodder.

2-The high points cost per model means buying less figs to make an army.  This is actually a big blow against GW pushing SM's.  They don't sell as many models,so they don't make as much money. 

3-Less models also means less models to assemble and paint.  Space Marines are also ridiculously easy to paint and at least make look decent.  They also don't have as many outlandish bits(like Chaos),so they're easier to assemble.

4-Due to their high toughness and armor saves,SM's(and MEQ's)can at times overcome poor tactical moves with a few good die rolls.  Until broken 'dex's like 3rd ed Eldar,Chaos II,and 4th 'nids came out,even a pretty basic SM force had at least a chance to beat any army it came accross because of this.

5-Since most of the SM's advantages lie in their statline,they don't have a whole lot of special rules for players to remember,while other books,like Chaos II and 'nids have a ridiculous amount.  A ton of rules intimidates a lot of gamers,not just kids,so they gravitate towards SM's for simplicity's sake.

All in all,40k will never be perfectly balanced.   Some armies will and should have harder times with some armies and an easier time with others.  However,the power scale is way out of wack in 40k right now.  There's 3-4 dominant armies,then there's everybody else. 

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/26/2007 7:02 PM

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
What I'm saying is this - stop frothing and wait and see. Yes - Chaos is due a minor downpowering.  But who DIDN'T see that coming? Other than that , we simply don't know enough about what is coming to get worked up about it yet.

Oh I have not yet begun to froth, baby! 

Dooby is right. You should have seen him when the latest 3rd ed codex came out. When he saw what was happening to his 1k sons, he had a coniption and part of imperial dakka was turned into a blasted heath.

IRCC, that why Russ moved the board. Dooby's extreme ire caused a partial rift in the board, and since it was no longer wholly stable, he moved us away for our own safety.

Atleast, thats what Russ told me....

This is a good idea which should be expanded.  For example, they could just release a Codex: Xenos.  Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of xenos in one codex.  Why take up multiple codices if one can do it this way?  So you could have your tough aliens (+1T = Orks), your fast aliens (+1I = Eldar), your shooty aliens (+1BS = Tau), your gribbly aliens (+1S = Tyranids), your robot aliens (+1Sv = Necrons), and your puny human aliens (no modifications = Imperial Guard).

Dark Eldar players would rejoice if they could get even that much, methinks. Plus we'd have the ultimate "counts as" list to shut up the mewling hordes of Squat / Zoat / Jokaero / Grox fans. Sounds like a win-win to me.

I agree with Therion. Fantasy does seem like a better balanced and better thought through game at the moment. Im leaning more and more towards quitting 40k. Just feel like im losing interest in the game despite being somewhat content with the new eldar codex. Besides, i dont really have time for two games anyways.

The biigest thing that needs to be fixed in fantasy is elite infantry imo. Doesnt seem to be a good choice for any army compared to cheaper variants.

I am not going to say it isn't better, because WHFB is. It has been slowly being smoothed out for some time now.

Hero hammer still has some very large affects in the game with lords on dragons being a fault.

If you hadn't noticed, the new WHFB rules didn't change a great amount.

Allesso also apologized after some UK tournament about how cheesy the Skaven codex was. Mistakes are made.

They had an accidental nerf of the Skaven army, in two parts, which was needed. Which also stopped that rampaging cheese fest. Vampire counts is still very much hero hammer. High Elves and Dark Elves don't have much of a chance without fielding an almost all cav force. WHFB still has issues, and problems. Just a lot fewer than 40k. High Elves should hopefully be fixed before the year is out.

And until the Chaos codex comes out, I don't think anyone should start stamping around screaming about the daemons. We don't know much of anything at the moment. They could be just that, generic undivided daemons with the specific power daemons coming in another book. At this point we just don't know enough.

I would say 40K players stop after a few years because it gets a bit tedious to rely so much on luck and so little on tactical maneuvers. After you've built your army list and put together the awesome infiltrating/first-turn charging demon prince of doom, and used it once, it loses appeal - it's the same fight every time after that. If you're playing with your friends, the games will definitely look the same over and over again - the only way you have a chance for variety is if your friends buy ridiculous numbers of models and change their armies, or you go to tournaments. Then, all you see are the same single power build that everyone has worked up.

Fantasy has those tactical moves; I bet the gaming lifespan for fantasy players is much longer than 40K players.

Posted By Antonin on 04/27/2007 7:51 AM
I would say 40K players stop after a few years because it gets a bit tedious to rely so much on luck and so little on tactical maneuvers.

 

Then you obviously don't play against the right people.  Granted, if you use 'tactical maneuvers' you get accused of 'rules lawyering' 'cheese' or 'exploitation' by people who just want to sit and roll dice.

Expansions ike Cities of Death add a lot to the game.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/26/2007 7:02 PM

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM
After all - it's a only a d6 scale. If the abilities of the demons are within 16% of each other in an area  -they SHOULD have the same basic stat. Throw in a few lines of  "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent  Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of demons in one unit entry. Why take up multiple entries if one can do it this way.

This is a good idea which should be expanded.  For example, they could just release a Codex: Xenos.  Throw in a few lines of "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of xenos in one codex.  Why take up multiple codices if one can do it this way?  So you could have your tough aliens (+1T = Orks), your fast aliens (+1I = Eldar), your shooty aliens (+1BS = Tau), your gribbly aliens (+1S = Tyranids), your robot aliens (+1Sv = Necrons), and your puny human aliens (no modifications = Imperial Guard).

Not only would this shut up all those whiney Ork players (boohoo, we haven't got a codex in 10 years!), it would also immediately bring Tyranids, Tau, and Eldar more in line with the power level established by the Dark Angel codex.  And best of all, it would free up space on the release schedule for a Codex: Death Company!!  SWEET!!!

This is comedy gold, baby!

Of course, the sad truth of what has and will be happening makes me what to cry too...

Do the people posting on the flaws/merits of WHFB even play that game? I know Therion does, but the moment he said it was near "perfect" I was scratching my head. Useless heavy infantry is near perfect? Likewise, when Toreador complains about Lords on dragons and herohammer all I can say is, "Huh?". Is this the same hero/dragon that usually cannot win CR alone? And get hit in the face by bolt throwers, cannons, etc.? For 500 points? And of course VC are hero inclined- once the general dies the whole army starts dying! I regard the free raised troops and (near) auto breaking a much bigger strength.

And all this considered WTH does it have to do with Chaos rumors?

Posted By Toreador on 04/27/2007 7:34 AM
And until the Chaos codex comes out, I don't think anyone should start stamping around screaming about the daemons. We don't know much of anything at the moment. They could be just that, generic undivided daemons with the specific power daemons coming in another book. At this point we just don't know enough.

I have the opposite view. Once the Codex is out, the rules are cast in stone and we're stuck with them.

Now is the perfect time to tell GW "I've heard the rumours about the changes to the Daemons and in particular them having a unified stat-line. As a consumer and a player who enjoys variety, I'm concerned that this could make the game less fun. Please take this viewpoint into consideration when finalizing the Codex."

It makes a lot more sense then whining about it after the Codex is out.