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I think this is a step in the right direction with both marine and chaos marines getting "balanced". The only draw back is suffering beat downs by Tyranid MC lists and 3 Falcon lists that are the real overpowered lists IMO. GW giveth and taketh away.

If you go by all the rumours that are in this thread then TS are going to be an army of doum.

Cheers

Posted By Therion- on 04/23/2007 1:10 PM
Demons are not going to have a common statline. You people are so easily fooled it's not even funny.

By the way Voodoo I'm not sure if you've played daemonbombs but I've taken one to more than ten tournaments and I've delivered with infiltrators, turbo boosting bikers and Siren characters and my experience is that scattering is always an issue. Mounted Daemonettes are twice as good as Daemonettes and I like Furies a lot too. The only foot daemon I've liked is the Bloodletter because it's so outrageously underpriced (LD10, 3+ AS, T4 etc).

Played them? No.  Played against them? Numerous times.

If scattering was that huge of issue then I'm sure demon bomb armies wouldn't be as prevalent as they are.  I mean how many tournament lists did you take that had Furies? Or were they Demonettes/Mounted Demonettes or Bloodletters - ie the ones that can ignore armor saves in CC.

I'm sure there are times when you get a bad scatter on one set of demons and they get hosed, sure.  But they're cheap enough where you can bulk out on small units of them and get enough delivered nice and safe.


RE: The latest changes Brimstone posted on Warseer.

Khorne lost the chain axes?  That's a surprize to be honest.  Guess they'll be back to being a Champion delivery system again. 
1k Sons got a lot more durable than they were with that upgrade, by far.   Wonder if they're still going to have Slow & Purposeful?

If the greater demons have the same abilities, I wonder if they're all going to be able to fly or have speed or something.  At least the Bloodthirster won't be the default Greater Demon, much like the situation with the regular demons who are either going to get Rending/Power Weapons or will sink into the land of "not used".

The Defiler is interesting without Indirect Fire.  I suspect a whole lot of them are going to get shelved now, unless you can upgrade it to AV13 or something.  I'm also guessing the Land Raider was just omitted as a typo.  I'm also wondering if Havok's are going to get vet skills or just the ability to purchase Tank Hunters, if not I'm sure there are a whole bunch of Autocannon Havok squads that are going to get taken apart/shelved/etc.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 4:19 PM

The Defiler is interesting without Indirect Fire.  I suspect a whole lot of them are going to get shelved now, unless you can upgrade it to AV13 or something.  I'm also guessing the Land Raider was just omitted as a typo.  I'm also wondering if Havok's are going to get vet skills or just the ability to purchase Tank Hunters, if not I'm sure there are a whole bunch of Autocannon Havok squads that are going to get taken apart/shelved/etc.

I suspect that a lot of units are going to get shelved.

Apparently, my whole army, actually.

Ugh.

Posted By Therion- on 04/23/2007 1:10 PM
Demons are not going to have a common statline. You people are so easily fooled it's not even funny.

Ah yes Therion, because there's been so much other information that runs contrary to the talk of single-statline Daemons, we just all forgot to read it.

Oh wait... there wasn't anything else in the thread talking about Daemons having differing statlines. Or maybe there was, but it's an invisible post, a post that only you can read, and a post that allows you to insult all of us collectivley for having 'more info' than we do.

BYE

Chances are the Daemons will look like this:

WS4 (or 5) BS3 S4 T3 W1 A2 I4 Ld9 Sv-/5+(I)

They'll have Power or Rending Weapons, and have the following differences:

Plagebearers - +1T
Daemonettes - +1I
Bloodletters - +1A
Horrors/Flamers - +1Inv Save
Furies - Jump Packs|
Screamers - Furious Charge
Daemonette Cav - Cavalry
Flesh Hounds - No Idea.

BYE

I already dropped a hint at you suggesting that these rumours are mostly imagination but you chose to ignore it. Then I just had to laugh at your naivety. What were your rumours based on again? Humour me.

 

Oooh, a Hurion Blackheart model? Now that sounds awesome, been wanting one of thoes for years now.

Posted By Therion- on 04/23/2007 7:29 PM

I already dropped a hint at you suggesting that these rumours are mostly imagination but you chose to ignore it. Then I just had to laugh at your naivety. What were your rumours based on again? Humour me.

Brimstone on Warseer's rumours have been mostly accurate on the last 5 or 6 Codexes. What makes them unreliable now?

Brimstone has been painfully accurate in his rumors on the DA and Eldar codexes. I see nothing that contradicts that for the Chaos codex.
From these rumors V4 codex =s first V3 codex. A great yawning Meh from me.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 4:19 PM

Played them? No.  Played against them? Numerous times.

If scattering was that huge of issue then I'm sure demon bomb armies wouldn't be as prevalent as they are.  I mean how many tournament lists did you take that had Furies? Or were they Demonettes/Mounted Demonettes or Bloodletters - ie the ones that can ignore armor saves in CC.

Furies are a good unit, and yes, I've seen them used.  Not sure why you think they aren't. 

Re: Daemons, Brimstone's usually pretty good with his rumors, although he did admit he had it wrong with respect to cult units being in this codex.  So I don't think it's impossible that he's wrong on this one item.  Another Warseer poster who usually has good information said in the same thread that the studio's been playing with the daemons a lot.  Things could be the same or different in the final version.

I'm unhappy that they didn't include LatD in this codex, but I'm happy that a codex is a possibility.  At least there's some hope.  If the LatD/Daemon codex happens, we can be assured of actual GW support for a long time, which is great.  Trouble is, I dunno when it's going to happen, with Orks, DE, SMs, etc. all seeming more imminent.  The one thing in its favor is that it'd be a good marketing tool to sell a lot of those new plastic daemon kits, plastic spawn kits, and existing IG kits.  So they might surprise us, although I'm not holding my breath.

And what proof beyond 'hints' do you have that these tidbits of info are not rock-solid gospel truth. They could just as well be fantasy, but how do you know that?

BYE

A few thoughts from me, with the whine knob turned down a bit ")

HQ
Daemon Prince (can be winged but no daemonic speed) cannot be instakilled.
Chaos Lord (highly impressive new multipart plastic kit to be released)
Chaos Sorcerer (force weapon as standard).

Good to see DP is a seperate option (and not instakillable), though wonder what 'standard kit' will be on the big guy - and how many points he comes out to.  And if I can take 2

N.B. No restricted units i.e. the Ancient enemies rule is gone.

With all of the codex changes that have been claimed to 'bring the army inline with the fluff,' this seems especially lame, but will indeed allow all of those Tzeentch units to be fielded in every army.

These are all individual entries.

Elites

Possessed Chaos Space Marines (New models on the way which are a vast improvement on the more recent ones) - Interested to know how beefed up these guys got, ala Harlies
Dreadnoughts (still frenzy) - Glad the frenzy is still around, and Elites does work a bit better
Veterans (only unit that can infiltrate)
Terminators – Can be marked (new plastic kit, reasonably impressive but not that different from Imperial versions), points brought into line with Imperial Terminators.

Troops – All troops come with bolter, bolt pistol CC weapon and grenades as standard.
Chaos Marines – Can be marked
Cult Marines
Khorne Bezerkers (lose their Khornate Chain axes) - Sad to see the chainaxes go, I guess WE get them back though?
Plague Marines (lose their plague weapons but keep blight grenades)
Noise Marines (retain their options for sonic weaponary but may be more restricted, Doom caster is AP3) - Yes!  I couldn't understand why they'd lose the sonics, as these are noise marines still, I'd hope.  And AP3 doom siren?!
Thousand Sons (Power armour save / 4+ Invul save) and bolters with inferno bolts (AP3) - Yep

Fast Attack

Raptors – Can be marked (new champion model on the way) no 0-1 restriction. - Including MoN & MoT?
Bikes – Can be marked - Including MoN & MoT?

Heavy Support

Obliterators – Can be marked, S and T reduced to 4, no 0-1 restriction. - At first I was all, marked oblits awesome!!  But what do the marks do for them?  MoK brings their strength back to 5, MoN brings their toughness back to 5, MoS does little as they have chainfists (I hope), but MoT does make them have a 4+ inv.  Tzeentch Oblits FTW!
Defiler – Loses indirect fire option but can be given a CC upgrade. - As much as I disliked seeing every defiler lurk and shoot indirect, it's a shame to see the option for Chaos artillery go.  I wonder how the defiler's points are going to change too ...
Vindicator (New plastic model for release). - I do like vindies.
Havocs
Predators

Misc Rumours
Codex follows the DA/Eldar format.
No books of Chaos in the codex.
Daemons (greater/lesser) are have generic stat lines (will be expanded upon in a Daemon/LatD codex). - Vomit, etc.
New unit – Chaos Spawn (1-3 cannot be split)
No basilisk option in the codex. - Good!
Wargear highly restricted – Daemonic gifts are gone, options are all given in unit entries. - A crying shame, and I remember being blown away by the Chaos wargear section when I saw it years ago.  So many options!  So many possibilites!  All gone!
Daemon weapons standardised – power weapon 1D6 attacks (if you roll a one you take a wound), can be upgraded with power specific options i.e. Khorne gives 2D6 attacks. - So ... no kai gun?  Or did that get assigned to one of the gods?
Any unit can be marked to the Chaos gods in the form of a Icon, marks are as follows – Khorne (+1A), Nurgle (+1T), Slaanesh (+1I), Tzeentch (+1 to invul save (max 2+) if already present or gives a basic 5+ invul save). - I like the way MoT works, but I will sorely miss warp scream.  What a unique ability, great for the combi-charge.
Recut CSM sprue.
Special characters – All survive and now include Huron Blackheart (model due for release) Ahriman has all chaos psychic powers and a force weapon as standard. - Huron, now that's cool.  Ahriman as the new Eldrad though?  Perhaps ... now let's see what Kharne is up to!!

- Boss Salvage

I think having a model for Huron will be nice. I wonder how his army would work? The Red Corsairs are far more... Marine-y than other Chaos Legions. They have all of the new stuff, like Land Speeders and stuff without tentacles. They're Space Marines Gone Bad as opposed to Evil Space Marines.

I think that this is probably the only interesting thing to come of these rumours, as the Red Corsairs remain an extremely unrevealed part of 40K fluff. The rest of it's just idiotic dumbing down and simplification - I can't wait to Daemonbomb the enemy with my Bloodletting Plague Daemonettes of Tzeentch! W00t!

BYE

That's the thing isn't it. People on Warseer like to make up some rules, call them rumours and then start debating whether they are good or bad ones. The fact you consider them gospel is just funny. They have to be accurate rules because so many people are talking about them, right? Wrong.

I don't give respect to anyone who is intentionally trying to deceive hundreds if not thousands of people on the internet, and even less to the guys who happen to buy that crap and start spreading the lies. The meaning of the word rumour of course implies that the knowledge is hearsay and possibly untrue. It takes a madman to always believe every rumour and even go so far as to furiously debate the possible futures they might lead to. Should we start a new Chaos Codex tactics thread too? I find it hard to believe any of you still don't know how the GW internet community works. First a guy who has a loyal fanbase makes up a rumour. All the blind sycophants in his community believe it and start debating the content of the rumour already accepted as fact. People even go as far as start insulting or praising the GW games designers. Then the rumour starts spreading out to other communities and soon there's a hundred little preachers on every forum citing the contents of the new codex. If someone even dares to laugh at the preachers or even worse at the face of the source he is labeled an idiot and a blasphemer. "The authoritative guy on god knows whatever planet has only been wrong a hundred and fifty times before with his wild guesses, what makes you more authoritative?"

EDIT: HBMC: When I post information about a new codex I'll do it when I have the final version of the book in my hand. I don't make guesses based on playtest copies, hearsay from playtesters, redshirts, their friends mothers or pets.

Oh for crying out loud Therion, stop playing games of semantics and just POST the information that you have, assuming you have any.

If you have something that you know, something of substance beyond 'You don't know what you think you know', then just come right out and say it.

BYE

We're not saying the rumours are definitely true, otherwise they wouldn't be in the rumours board!
But people are voicing their opinions on the rumours. No need to get snide with them because of that.
I didn't see anyone saying "This is a cold hard fact: Daemons will have one statline.", just people saying what they thought of the RUMOUR that they will. If you have a fact, or counter rumour, post it, and watch it get discussed in a similar manner. Otherwise, I don't see how mocking people for engaging in the purpose of this board is constructive or polite. It really does make you look like a bit of an arrogant ass.

So, H.B.M.C., if I understand your last post you are perfectly fine with people posting "rumors" about a codex but not with the person who calls those same "rumors" fabrications? I guess time will tell who's right and who's wrong. Personally, I think the burdon of proof belongs on the person fielding the rumors. But that's just me.

Posted By Breotan on 04/24/2007 7:31 AM
So, H.B.M.C., if I understand your last post you are perfectly fine with people posting "rumors" about a codex but not with the person who calls those same "rumors" fabrications? I guess time will tell who's right and who's wrong. Personally, I think the burdon of proof belongs on the person fielding the rumors. But that's just me.

Do me a favour mate and read the post above yours. It's pretty much sums up what my feelings are.

What is happening is that Therion is mocking us for discussing rumours.

This has nothing to do with the validity of the rumours, or any rumours. It's about someone actually making snide and arrogant comments about people discussing rumours, whilst at the same time going 'Ha! These are wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why'. This is why I call on him. If he knows they're wrong, then why sit there laughing at us. Why not tell us why they're wrong. What's so damned hard about that?

And as an aside, as far as burdens of proof are concerned when it comes to rumours, things that are inherently unconfirmed, you usually have to go on precedent for 'proof'. Brimstone, and his track record, is a pretty good precedent if you ask me. All Therion has is... well... he hasn't told us yet has he.

Has it told you? 

BYE

Posted By Breotan on 04/24/2007 7:31 AM
So, H.B.M.C., if I understand your last post you are perfectly fine with people posting "rumors" about a codex but not with the person who calls those same "rumors" fabrications? I guess time will tell who's right and who's wrong. Personally, I think the burdon of proof belongs on the person fielding the rumors. But that's just me.

 The acolytes always defend their master fiercely.

That really is no concern of mine. If you're so hurt by a dissenting opinion you need to re-think your whole ideology.

Tell that to Brother Dunnikin.

The fact that you don't question wild rumours before I tell you which games designer I've got my extensive knowledge from is lunacy. That's what my posts are about. Brimstone never ever reveals his sources if he even has any, and he always labels his rumours as mere rumours and nothing factual, but I digress. Arguing which liar is more authoritative (as opposed to truthful based on evidence) is something the human race used to do in archaic courts 2500 years ago.

...
This is a rumours board.
Not a "Facts" board. Anyone posting/reading here takes the rumours with a grain of salt. It doesn't stop them from discussing the rumours, the merits and the bad bits. That's what we have been doing.
What you've been doing is going "Haha!You fools! So easily taken in by a rumour! Lies, all lies!" etc, when none of us have actually said "OMG I believe this rumour 100%, Brimstone is my master, he is the always right!"
I don't understand at all where you're coming from- you seem to have managed to a) Misunderstand that this is a Rumours board, b)Misread the title, which states that these are rumours, c) and misunderstood the discussion of rumours as a discussion of supposed facts.

I'm not hurt by a disenting opinion, believe me. But I'm trying to point out that you seem to be making a lot of assumptions, which are groundless, and misunderstanding what's going on.
Cheers for telling me I need to re-think my whole ideology without actually knowing what it is by the way, very amusing.
The reason I pointed out that you looked like an ass was because perhaps you were unaware of the fact, if you don't care, then fine, whatever.

The one question Therion is, are you more valid than anyone else? Most of the people posting about the Chaos book on the Warseer forum have posted correct rumours about other products in the past. It's pretty much a case of "who do we believe more?" I can't say that I have ever heard anything from you about rumours, or have any basis to believe what you say.

It is also very believable that if there are two books, and the first is more about an Undivided Chaos force, that the daemons would have generic profiles. Without much more from you to back up what you say, we don't have much to go on.

Posted By Therion- on 04/24/2007 7:37 AM

 The acolytes always defend their master fiercely.

Huh?

He's implying that we all worship Brimstone as our master, and so are responding to critisisms of Brimstone as a source, rather than his attitude.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/24/2007 7:22 AM
Oh for crying out loud Therion, stop playing games of semantics and just POST the information that you have, assuming you have any.

Your half-cryptic, half-arrogant bull$hit is getting tiresome.

If you have something that you know, something of substance beyond 'You don't know what you think you know', then just come right out and say it.

BYE

Seconded. Thats the current state of the rumors, from a reliable source. This is a rumors forum.

Like I said, you're not interested about whether a rumour is based on truth or not. You're only interested who is posting the rumour, and like I also said, debating with credentials instead of facts is archaic and slowed. I have to go now so I won't be able to reply in a while, but I'll note that I have nothing against people discussing mere rumours. I will however try to remind you of their extreme unreliability whenever I see the tone of the discussion changing from rumours to accepted fact. Think of me as the voice of reason you don't want to listen to. I may or may not have more information than your source but it is completely irrelevant. I'm not the type of person who takes anything on blind faith, and neither should you.

 

Like I said, you're not interested about whether a rumour is fact or not. You're only interested who is posting the rumour, and like I also said, debating with credentials instead of facts is archaic and slowed.
*******************************************************
No people acting arrogant as if they have secret knowledge, not sharing that supposed knowledge is the slowed aspect. Really. Is Brimstone 100% accurate-no. But he is generally reliable. How about you boyo?

Put up or shut up.

 

 

Anyone hear if vindi's will be 0-1 like they currently are for IW? I'd take the loss of a bassie if I could field 2 vindi's.