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OK, I'll bite...

Any chance you could tell me just how close to the current Chaos Codex the new Chaos Codex will let me make my Alpha Legion force?

It is an all infantry, all infiltrating force ("Tac" squads, HTH squads and Tank Hunting Havoc Squads) with cultists used to summon Daemonettes...

Thanks!

Well Alpharius your marine list are "chaos" marines. The new list is for "chaos." See the similarities?

WTH? When did this go from a Chaos rumors thread to a self congratulatory critique of truthseeking and political commentary?

My initial reaction is that watered down daemons and cults is craptacular. Making a doomsiren just a hands free flamer is very weak. And no blastmaster havoc squads makes me question what exactly EC are supposed to do (look pretty). Maybe that AP3 thingy will help.

So if daemonbomb and IW vanish that seems to make Necrons, Eldar, and Tyranids look really hot.

Posted By jfrazell on 04/24/2007 2:37 PM
Well Alpharius your marine list are "chaos" marines. The new list is for "chaos." See the similarities?

Ha!

?

The only similarities I see so far when using the (admittedly only rumors at this point) new Chaos Marine Codex is that SOME of my squads will be able to infiltrate.

At this point, I'm not sure that my Lord will be able to do so.

There are no cultists.

And every background limitation that used to exist for certain cults/legions no longer does.

My other Chaos army *was* going to be Emperor's Children.

And maybe it still will be... but it isn't looking good so far...

Posted By Therion- on 04/24/2007 7:53 AM
The fact that you don't question wild rumours before I tell you which games designer I've got my extensive knowledge from is lunacy.

Before I continue I just need a bit of clarification - I need to know what planet you're from. That would help me greatly.

Anyway, moving on from that, I think that everyone here knows than when we discuss rumours on a rumour board, we understand the basic concept of what a rumour is, and we don't see these rumours as fact until they are proven so. Until such time as they are confirmed as fact, we continue to discuss the implication of these rumours and what would happen if they did turn out to be fact. We don't sit there going 'It's not true!' nor do we attack people with snide and arrogant comments for even thinking about discussing rumours. These latter part seems to be your aim.

To put it another way, if a rumour came up saying that Long Fangs were being removed from the next Space Puppie Codex we, as a group, could go 'This may not be true, but if it were true I think the following...'.

Hence the reason this is a rumour discussion board, for the discussion of the rumours. We're not taking anything as gospel, so stop sniping at the people discussing the rumours because, quite frankly, you don't know any more than the rest of us do...

... unless you do know something, then stop being so damned cryptic.

BYE

I can't wait to make my Death Guard berserker army!  Sweet!

Then I can field my Chaos UN daemon ambassador unit (1 screamer + 1 horror + 1 flamer + 1 plaguebearer + 1 fleshhound + 1 bloodletter + 1 daemonette + 1 daemonette on a steed + 1 fury + 1 nurgling = U-N-I-T-Y) and still be WYSIWYG!  I think I'll take some Emperor's Children bikers with the Mark of Nurgle (T6 = SWEET) to summon them.  Gnarly!

And my Bloodkeeper of Unclean Change won't even take up a FOC slot!  Righteous!

This codex sounds totally sweet and that's a fact.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and in before lock.

So if marks were true I wonder if your oblit could take a Nurgle mark and keep his toughness.

No one has commented on each CSM being equipped with bolter, bp, and ccw? How much is a basic CSM going to cost if that's true? I mean, that's better than True Grit, whether or not you play the rapid fire rules as carrying a rapid fire weapon as opposed to shooting it.

But really, most of what's in this set of rumors is pretty much in line with what I was expecting from the change anyway. No big surprises. Shame if daemons are getting dumbed down as such, but otherwise, meh -- Chaos is flagrantly overpowered (speaking as a Chaos player). Most of the vaunted armory that's (theoretically) getting whacked devolves to mathhammer anyway.

Daemons having the same statline across the board may or may not be a bad thing; as has been said, Bloodletters and Daemonettes are the only useful ones now, and if the conformed stat line looks like either of those two models, the actual change to daemons on the tabletop will be fairly minor. I'm more curious about what changes will be made to summoning.

Any comments on Dreadclaws becoming standard codex gear?

The big change in the rumor set is lack of infiltration on standard CSM squads; this changes up a lot of army lists, not just Alpha Legion.

I wouldn't doubt it.

I think that everyone should probably calm down and start waiting till more concrete stuff comes in. I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is. Cult armies are still possible, with more choice. Demons, I don't see getting completely restricted to one statline. I see them getting like Rending and then Marks to beef them up, with just a 5+ Inv to protect them. Khorne goes down a notch, Slanesh stays the same, and Nurgle/Tzeench just got a crap load better. Or they'll not be able to ignore armor, and they'll get relegated to slow duty and thus the Demon Bomb army is dead.

Still, with FOUR model ranges at a minimum for the regular demons (not counting beasts) that span both 40k and Fantasy, with rumored plastic kits coming, it doesn't make $$ sense to limit them rules wise and GW is all about the benjamins.

We don't know what the options are for the DP, who now can't be instant killed. We don't know how the options will be for the Lord/LT, other than Infiltrate/Speed is going away and I think it's pretty safe to say that it's something that should die a terrible death (sorry Skyth).

And hey, if Nurgle can make Oblits T5 and every chaos army can take 9 of them - hey look they'll be able to stand up to Nidzilla & Eldar.

Oh, I should say though, that if these rumors turn out to be fairly accurate, it'll make me (at least) more likely to pick Chaos back up; it won't be such a spoiler list, and terminators might be viable (and after the loyalist plastic terminators, I have high hopes for the Chaos plastics), and Thousand Sons look to be at least useful -- they've pretty much always been my favorite legion model, and I'd love to be able to field some and have them be useful.

I also agree that regardless of the veracity of these rumours, the Chaos Dex needed a nerfing, but they should be really careful.  The last codex established a precedent that every undivided chapter has a unique fighting style (IW, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers) and gave them really powerful special rules.  A lot of those armies, like Alpharius pointed out, are going to need to be re-aligned big time.  Looking at the list of rumours I'm glad that I play a pretty well rounded Black Legion force, but I don't see how it will be possible to preserve the character of the undivided legions.

I've noticed that there are way more DIY Space Marines players than DIY Chaos chapters.  This has got to be because of the legion specific rules in the last codex, and I think a lot of people are going to be miffed that their Iron Warriors are no different than Word Bearers.

@ lowinor Re: CSM with BP, bolters and ccw: In their new Codex, DA Tactical's are armed with BP, Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak and still cost the same as they always have.

Seems to be the way of things with Jervis's new direction: No more "Nuts I forgot to buy frags for those guys"

I have to agree it makes sense.

Every unit that has acess to grenades should be carrying them. Not merely specific units that pay points to carry them.

Grenades from my viewpoint are standard gear, just like their standard armaments (bolter) and sidearms (pistol, knife).

FRom a manufacturing perspective, it also makes sense, since the chaos marine sprue comes with bolters and BP/ccw.

This does cause a very slight problem with WYSIWYG though. I am sure WYSIWYG is becoming more and more less strict as time goes on.

Posted By Cyric036 on 04/25/2007 6:25 AM
@ lowinor Re: CSM with BP, bolters and ccw: In their new Codex, DA Tactical's are armed with BP, Bolter, CCW, Frag and Krak and still cost the same as they always have.

Seems to be the way of things with Jervis's new direction: No more "Nuts I forgot to buy frags for those guys"

Er, I thought DAs only got the bolter and bolt pistol, but no ccw to get the second attack.  Of course, I don't have the codex on hand to check...

I always entertained the idea that the Chaos were far more... well... Chaotic. They don't have a standard kit - they have whatever they had left after the heresy, whatever they've taken/stolen/inherited since then, so the idea of them all having grenades wouldn't sit right with me from a fluff perspective.

BYE

Posted By Hellfury on 04/25/2007 6:32 AM

This does cause a very slight problem with WYSIWYG though. I am sure WYSIWYG is becoming more and more less strict as time goes on.

Yep. When you buy a "Tactical Squad" or "Chaos Lord" with no further options then that, the WYSIWYG component is much lesser important.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM
I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is.

Well, that's just because Chaos has what could easily be 5 codices worth of material crammed into 1 book.  Unfortunately GW can't devote multiple codices to Chaos so Undivided, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch have to be covered by 1 list.  Afterall, if they were to split Chaos into 2-3 codices then maybe they wouldn't be able to release separate books for armies like Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

Can you imagine?  Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines all crammed into 1 book?  That's impossible!  How could 1 list cover all 3 of these very different armies?  I mean, Blood Angels really really  :heart:  jump packs and Dark Angels really really  :heart:  teleport homers but Ultramarines don't really really  :heart: either very extra much.  This is an important distinction that just can't be covered by 1 list.

On the other hand is there any real difference between a bloodletter and a screamer?  I don't think so.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/25/2007 7:33 AM
I always entertained the idea that the Chaos were far more... well... Chaotic. They don't have a standard kit - they have whatever they had left after the heresy, whatever they've taken/stolen/inherited since then, so the idea of them all having grenades wouldn't sit right with me from a fluff perspective.

That's why I hate how they're apparently doing away with chosen and replacing them with terminators and veterans again.  I liked how chosen could have mixed terminator/power armor squads.  Not really useful in-game, but nice from a fluff perspective.  Now power armor chosen go back to being Chaos' 3+ sv scout-equivalent.  Thanks Jervis.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/25/2007 8:42 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM
I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is.

Well, that's just because Chaos has what could easily be 5 codices worth of material crammed into 1 book.  Unfortunately GW can't devote multiple codices to Chaos so Undivided, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch have to be covered by 1 list.  Afterall, if they were to split Chaos into 2-3 codices then maybe they wouldn't be able to release separate books for armies like Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

Can you imagine?  Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines all crammed into 1 book?  That's impossible!  How could 1 list cover all 3 of these very different armies?  I mean, Blood Angels really really  :heart:  jump packs and Dark Angels really really  :heart:  teleport homers but Ultramarines don't really really  :heart: either very extra much.  This is an important distinction that just can't be covered by 1 list.

On the other hand is there any real difference between a bloodletter and a screamer?  I don't think so.

Abadabadoobaddon,

There's one logical fallacy in your arguement.
Chaos has never HAD separate Legion books. Ever. Only halfway through 3rd edition did most of the Legions get any *definitive* army differences - kinda like the Eldar did with their Craftworlds. And a bunch of second string Space Marine armies. Which so far have ALL gotten nuked by the 4th Ed codices.

Dark Angels and Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines, on the other hand, have had separate books for over 13 years.

Now - do I agree with you that all the Space Marine codices probably could have been one book? Yes. However - since GW created the precedent of a handful of Big name Chapter books as separate books two game versions ago - and it IS their cash cow; they have the right to continue as they were. (Nor would I mind them consolidating back either - but is neither here nor there) 

Then again - I have no problem with all Chaos being one book either. Until 2002 - World Eaters were angry Chaos guys painted red. Sure they had background and history, but army list wise - they just picked appropriate units form the Chaos list and went to town. I see nothing in the rumors that indicate you WON'T be able to do that again. (and gain a little flexibilty as well - now you can have a handful of the gun happy maniacs who express their rage at the universe with remote application of high explosives; aka artillery. Blood for the Blood God because I dropped a demolisher shell on you and your squadmates, baby!)

You see - I beleive that "special rules do not an army make". I am strongly of the opinion that MOST variant armies; if not all - should not have *any* special rules advantages over their parent army. A special/variant unit - maybe. But that's about it. Everything else should come from background, paint scheme, etc.  Which is how Chaos was until this last revision.

You want World Eaters - fine - take lots of Marked Berserker units, a handful of demons, etc.
You want IW - fine - take lots of gunline units, and maybe some artillery.
You want the Dark Crusade of Iggy the Unlikely? Take whatever units you feel like out of the Codex, with whatever paint scheme floats your boat.

As long as the Codex is properly balanced and pointed - I'll work with it. 

And frankly -the demon changes make me think,  "hmm - I can get Non- bloodletter demons that DON'T suck? Maybe that Chaos army I back burnered a while ago might happen after all."

But I will wait and see. I'm actually kind of hopefull that these changes will be good. So far I see little I don't like.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM other than Infiltrate/Speed is going away and I think it's pretty safe to say that it's something that should die a terrible death (sorry Skyth).

Well, I knew it was going away just because it's something people whined alot about regardless if there was a basis to the whining, just like the starcannon, the assault cannon, small heavy weapon-toting tac squads, etc.

I'm just annoyed that I have 10 models modeled as centaurs with daemonic speed that I won't be able to use any more.

Yeah, sorry my bad. No CCW for DA tac squads.

Ok, the standard gear on a CSM has got me thinking more about it, that being: bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, frags.

The closest equivalent model out there is a Grey Hunter, and when equipped similarly with true grit, bolter, ccw, frags, costs 19 points. That's a nice chunk of points, and it's still inferior to the CSM as rumored (even playing firing any weapon while carrying rapid fire prevents you from charging, you still get an extra attack on the charge; if you play the more routine interpretation, you get a shot and an extra attack on the charge).

So what does Chaos look like with a base 20 point marine?

I'd have to say I suspect it should be "bolter or bolt pistol, ccw, frags" instead. If not, it's just... unusual.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/25/2007 8:42 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/25/2007 5:47 AM
I think Chaos is going to get a nerf, but there's still a ton of choices in there as it is.

Well, that's just because Chaos has what could easily be 5 codices worth of material crammed into 1 book.  Unfortunately GW can't devote multiple codices to Chaos so Undivided, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch have to be covered by 1 list.  Afterall, if they were to split Chaos into 2-3 codices then maybe they wouldn't be able to release separate books for armies like Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

Can you imagine?  Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines all crammed into 1 book?  That's impossible!  How could 1 list cover all 3 of these very different armies?  I mean, Blood Angels really really  :heart:  jump packs and Dark Angels really really  :heart:  teleport homers but Ultramarines don't really really  :heart: either very extra much.  This is an important distinction that just can't be covered by 1 list.

On the other hand is there any real difference between a bloodletter and a screamer?  I don't think so.

Honestly if you removed all the crap from the SM codex there is no reason why it couldn't include all the SM chapters.  In fact I would argue that if GW's method of developing the chapter rules was any good every chapter should be able to be derived out of the trait system...  chaos or any other army should be no different.  The current system of codicies (sp) only serves as an example of how poorly the system is constructed.  ie. special rules, inconsistencies and a certain level of ambiguity.   The only way GW can think to fix it is to dumb it all down.  Soon I fear the only differences between the armies of 40k will be the colors they are painted.

They should just re-release Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned with updated rules. That would do it for me, balancing and tournament viability be damned.

Posted By keichi246 on 04/25/2007 9:30 AM
Abadabadoobaddon,

There's one logical fallacy in your arguement.
Chaos has never HAD separate Legion books. Ever.

Well you ~would~  have a point, if it weren't for the fact that you are completely wrong.  Both Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned came out back when Space Wolves were still just grey Ultramarines.  Those books contained rules for all the different types daemons we have today (except Furies and Screamers which hadn't been invented yet) plus some we don't (Beasts of Nurgle, Fiends of Slaanesh).  It also included beastmen, cultists, DIY daemon weapons, and pages upon pages of mutations and gifts.  Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all got separate army lists.

But now it seems that we have come to a point where GW is no longer willing to support these units and armies as separate entities.  So while they go about inventing differences for marine chapters that in the past have been mostly codex (apart from Deathwing and Ravenwing Dark Angels were supposed to be a codex chapter), at the same time they are eliminating armies and unit types that have been around since Rogue Trader (when you take 9 distinct varieties of daemon and cram them into a single unit entry with identical stats, then yes I consider that to be practically the same as eliminating 8 of the 9 flavors of daemon).  It is absurd that we need separate books for armies whose primary troop choices are identical (tac marines), yet an army composed of frothing madmen with chainaxes and an army consisting almost entirely of mindless empty suits of armor have to be covered by a single simplified list.

So if these rumors are true, it looks like the cult marines are going to be reduced to the Chaos equivalent of aspect warriors and cult legions are going the way of the Deathwing.  On the other hand, it's virtually impossible to convey how much Blood Angels REALLY :heart:  jump packs (x2) without giving them their own book!

Of course!
D'uh.
Jeez Abadabadoobaddon, state the obvious.
Space Marines deserve all the attention because "They're original!" (Yup, because power armour and super soldiers were never around before GW!) or "They make the most money!" (Yup, because marketing the other races and giving them as much support wouldn't boost their sales at ALL)
and "They've been around ages!Stop whining! All you guys ever do is whine! Maybe you should quit if you hate it so much. (Yup, we should. You'll all have way more fun playing space marines vs space marines all day.)
(Sorry for arguing against strawmen there.)

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 04/26/2007 7:28 AM

Posted By keichi246 on 04/25/2007 9:30 AM
Abadabadoobaddon,

There's one logical fallacy in your arguement.
Chaos has never HAD separate Legion books. Ever.

Well you ~would~  have a point, if it weren't for the fact that you are completely wrong.  Both Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned came out back when Space Wolves were still just grey Ultramarines. 

Ok - so your history- fu is better than mine. Then again - where are the Harlequin Land Raiders, Eldar laguns, and IG Jetbikes? Or the fact that those books were also designed to work with Fantasy?

Things HAVE changed a wee bit in the 3 editions since then. 

Tell me - Why do Demons *have* to have different stat lines?  Because they did in the past?  Times and versions change. Who picks Horrors any more? Nobody. Why? - because they SUCK by comparison to other demons. Why are Bloodletters ludicrously popular? because they are amazing for their points costs.

Look, no one is saying - "no other demons exist anymore". They are saying "look - Demonettes, Bloodletters, and Horrors all fulfill about the same role on the battlefield, should be about the same power level, and *should* do about the same amount of damage." They get summoned - they attack, they kill things or get killed.

After all - it's a only a d6 scale. If the abilities of the demons are within 16% of each other in an area  -they SHOULD have the same basic stat. Throw in a few lines of  "modify the stat slightly this way for X points to represent  Y" - and BOOM - you have covered the different types of demons in one unit entry. Why take up multiple entries if one can do it this way?

Secondly - repeat after me:  "Rules mechanics do not equal background and vice versa." The Legions *do* have background out the ass. However, they don't *need* extra special rules mechanics; *if* the basic rules mechanics are flexible enough to be used to represent them. Some of the limitations put on the Legions in codex 3.5 didn't make sense - and some of the "bennies" didn't exactly work out right either. So if a basic set of rules *can* cover it - let them... 

Finally - you seem to have snipped the part where I agreed with  you about the Space Marine codex. I *play* Dark Angels and would have been perfectly happy being told "take the basic codex" - or having one page of minor changes explaining the differences between the Dark Angels and "codex".  Even with Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Are GW unfair in the way they distribute Codices? Yes. Just ask an Ork player. Chaos is going to have had 2 full revisions (and god knows how many changes inserted in different print runs) between the Ork codices. But then again - business has NOTHING to do with fairness...  Space Marines make GW money - and let them stay in business so they can print stuff like Chaos and Eldar codices. As a wise man once told me: "Life sucks. Wear a cup."

What I'm saying is this - stop frothing and wait and see. Yes - Chaos is due a minor downpowering.  But who DIDN'T see that coming? Other than that , we simply don't know enough about what is coming to get worked up about it yet.

There we go!
The business argument.
I knew it wasn't a real straw man, it kept trying to get away as I was nailing it up.

Posted By keichi246 on 04/26/2007 8:48 AM

Secondly - repeat after me:  "Rules mechanics do not equal background and vice versa." The Legions *do* have background out the ass. However, they don't *need* extra special rules mechanics; *if* the basic rules mechanics are flexible enough to be used to represent them. Some of the limitations put on the Legions in codex 3.5 didn't make sense - and some of the "bennies" didn't exactly work out right either. So if a basic set of rules *can* cover it - let them... 

Yes they do, look at dark angels players.

"Finally! Rules that match fluff!" (even though that fluff hasnt existed since 2nd edition) "I can finally divide my troops into two squads! Like the fluff says!" ( in second edition)


GW is just going to alter the fluff to match the new rules, just like DA.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/26/2007 8:52 AM
There we go!
The business argument.
I knew it wasn't a real straw man, it kept trying to get away as I was nailing it up.

Yeah, well... I was typing up my reply as you were typing yours....

And - alas - it is also true. As much as people may think it  - GW ain't stupid.  I *know* that GW has done research that has said "people like Sci-fi powered armor". I can assure you that it was the reason *I* got into 40k.

They ARE a business, and Space marines DO certainly make them money. So yeah - they ARE going to do things to encourage those sales.

Should they look at broadening their horizons more? I personally think so. I do believe that if they properly supported the other races - they would sell more; which would help overall. But it is a matter of will and sucking up short and mid-term losses to get possibly better long term - and GW is hesitant to do that. (for spectacularly obvious reasons - see stock prices).

But this an old,dead, beaten horse...