New Chaos Rumours

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**winterman**

New rumors from warseer. First off, Storch posted several rumors:

Ok, I got to take a look at the codex today. (I will not bother telling you how since unless I posted a picture of it, you wouldn't believe anyway and maybe not even then). You can believe or not, it's no skin off my teeth one way or another.

Here are a few highlights:

-Marks are simpler, ie Khorne gives +1 attack, Slaanesh +1 Initiative, Nugle +1 Toughness, and Tzeentch +1 armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save.

-Troops - there are normal marines as troops as well as legion specific ones. Only the legion specific marines get access to legion specific weapons.

- Havocs can take marks but only get normal weapons (i.e. no blastmaster havoc squads for EC anymore).

- There are no mark restrictions on taking units. This means you could have a Khorne lord, a squad of noise marines, Nurgle Havocs , a squad of Obliterators (which are now Heavy Support) and a Vindicator.

- Yup, the Vindicator has been added as an option for everyone and the Basilisk for Iron Warriors is removed entirely.

-To make up for this, Dreads move to Elites so if you IW players want to pack in the heavy weapons you still can.

New models:
-I got to see one of the new plastic terminators in the flesh and it looks pretty cool. Though the trophy spikes on the shoulders were a bit long for my tastes, the rest of the model was very well done. About the same size as the new plastic Marine terminators, this will make a lot of people very happy.

From the pictures in the book:
- The new plastic Posessed look much cooler than the current ones (not that that is much of a feat).

- The new Raptor lord is a lot more dynamic and, though I only saw the picture for a bit, seems a bit more in proportion and not as cartoony.

-The new plastic Chaos Lord is absolutely amazing. It has a ton of cool bits and can be made to look like any one of the chaos powers and they all looked good. All the options here will keep the converters buy for a long time to come.

-The plastic Vindicator is almost exactly like the Forgeworld one with maybe a few minor changes. I'm not totally familiar with the FW model, so suffice it to say they look basically the same to me.

-Finally, there is a new plastic spawn kit that comes with enough bits to make two full spawn. One of them looks really cool with no head and a big eye in its chest. The other I didn't look at as much because the first one was so pretty, but it was much closer to the "lots of random appendages" we are used to.

Sorry for not getting more but that's all I can remember right now. I probably won't get to look at it again, but if anything comes back to me, I'll definitely post it here.

Oh, one more, since I am putting together Emporer's Children, I made it a point to look up their stuff.

One really good thing is that that fixed the Doom Siren to just be a flamer with no hand requirement. No more Doomfists, thank god.

Also the Slaanesh psychic power is just sick. If you past a psychic test, you can pick a unit (I think within 24", might be less, I don't remember for sure) and you can move it 2d6" in any direction.

Enjoy.

There aren't 'Legions' per se anymore. You can simply add a noise marine squad or a plague marine squad to any army. Night Lords would just be Marines with skills. An Iron Warriors army would simply be one that focuses on heavy weapons.

The only thing I saw that would indicate future supplemental releases was a marked decrease in the wargear options. Now, this may simply be a case of paring down the stuff that was overpowered, not usable, etc. but this is also in line with GW's new "make your specific army from a single more generic list" idea like what we have saw with the Eldar.

My opinion here, the only way that I see specific codex lists like you mentioned is if the Blood Angels thing is a real hit and GW decides to bolster White Dwarf sales by making it the preferred vehicle for releasing short lists like that. Otherwise I think it's up to the individual player to make the army fit the Fluff rather than have it dictated by the codex.

Another guy, reds8n added:

hmmm : here's what I've been told.

marks for normal troops are : K+1A. S+1I,N+1T,T=5+invuln save.

The Full cult troops ( world eaters, 1000 sons etc ) : WE= furious charge, 1oos sons= 4+ invulnerable save, option of ap3 inferno bolts, and are led by a sorceror who ( just the sorcerpr HQ choice ) comes with a force weapon. Oh, if he dies then their slow & purp. roll drops to 1d6. Deathguard=feel no pain....and Emps. children.....sorry, minds gone blank.

Oblits are heavy: supposedly they might be due to the techno organic virus OR they might be fallen/corrupted techmarines/adepts, who tap into the warp in some way. Down to S & T 4, and lose projectile type weapons ( heavy bolter etc) but can shoot pretty much any energy weapon --plasma-both,multi-both, flamer etc etc.

Ahriman has all the powers and a force weapon. think Abaddon can take all his attaks with his bif *&^% off sword however think it "only" wounds with no save now !

Chosen as elites are a separate slot from termies, think chosen get infiltrate-might get other options, they're similar to vets. from the DA.

Think daemonic possession was the same but dropped BS down to 3.

EDIT : oh yes, think ALL marines come with bolt gun, pistol and CC weapon as standard as well.

As far as I've heard there is no lost & upset in the book at all in any way shape or form.

However if the daemons are removed--from what I hear they keep hpkey-kokeying around with them--then ( seeing as there are plastic daemons on the way and it wouldn't be too hard too put round and square bases in the boxes would it ) I'd expect a codex : cultist or codex : daemonic legion at some point in the not too distant future. Hell, look at the Blood Angels ! We might even see a list in White Dwarf or something !

Other points ;

yup, armoury as such has gone--upgrades are listed for each entry. welcome to the future. From what I have heard Hq options are : lord, prince or sorceror. All with their own options and variants--wings are an option for prince for example. Bizarrely this does seem to leave it so that ( special characters aside) you can't have a bezerker or a plague marine leading a World eater/death guard force, merely a lord with the mark of Khorne/nurgle .
No basilisk, but vindicator is their though .
Yes, does seem to say you could shoot and then have 2 weapons in assault--removes need for Death Guard getting true grit I suppose.
No idea with regards to powers, rot etc etc. Sorry

Storch followed up:

Originally Posted by Promethius
Just a quick question Storch: did you notice cultists in the army list, or are they not making an appearance?

Don't remember seeing cultists.

Originally Posted by reds8n
hmmm : here's what I've been told.
marks for normal troops are : K+1A. S+1I,N+1T,T=5+invuln save.

I distinctly remember the +1 to armor save for Tzeench because it had a line about "to a minimum of 2+".

Originally Posted by reds8n
The Full cult troops ( world eaters, 1000 sons etc ) : WE= furious charge, 1oos sons= 4+ invulnerable save, option of ap3 inferno bolts, and are led by a sorceror who ( just the sorcerpr HQ choice ) comes with a force weapon. Oh, if he dies then their slow & purp. roll drops to 1d6. Deathguard=feel no pain....and Emps. children.....sorry, minds gone blank.

For the Thousand Sons, the squad leader is automatically a Sorcerer and the Inferno bolts are an upgrade. Didn't really read the HQ choices, so no idea on the force weapon.

Originally Posted by reds8n
However if the daemons are removed--from what I hear they keep hpkey-kokeying around with them--then ( seeing as there are plastic daemons on the way and it wouldn't be too hard too put round and square bases in the boxes would it ) I'd expect a codex : cultist or codex : daemonic legion at some point in the not too distant future. Hell, look at the Blood Angels ! We might even see a list in White Dwarf or something !

It's not that daemons are removed, it's just that they are generic and have one stat line. There is no separate entry for Bloodletters or Daemonettes or Screamers or whatever anymore. Sadly, the same is true for the greater daemons as well. Much more generic. On the upside, I don't believe either takes up space on the force org chart any more.

Originally Posted by reds8n
yup, armoury as such has gone--upgrades are listed for each entry. welcome to the future. From what I have heard Hq options are : lord, prince or sorceror. All with their own options and variants--wings are an option for prince for example. Bizarrely this does seem to leave it so that ( special characters aside) you can't have a bezerker or a plague marine leading a World eater/death guard force, merely a lord with the mark of Khorne/nurgle .

Two things here, those look right for the HQ choices and there is more to it when discussing the armory. I don't want to give the impression that there are no choices. Far from it. It's just that a lot of the armory entries got rolled into the individual entries. For example, I remember Noise Marines come with krak and frag standard. I know it's a small example, but a lot of the more basic armory entries seem to just be included so it appears, at first glance, like there are less options when, in fact, you are just getting more without having to explicitly choose every little thing.

If the rumors are true it looks like GW are taking a step backward and re-releasing the much lamented first version of the 3ed chaos dex. Not a good idea at all...

**Gabe**

Hasn't GW said they want to keep Thousand Sons with 2 wounds? Does that mean we'll see 2 wound, 2+ save, 5+/4+ invulnerable thousand sons? good lord, that would be nice...

are inferno bolts an upgrade option for the entire squad, or just the unit leader/HQ? any info on what the inferno bolt is? still just a normal bolt round with a template, or is it the rumored AP3 round?

**blood angel**

DG with feel no pain will be nice.

I was sure that we'd see some empowerment of TZ and Nurgle and it looks like that's the case.

I would really hate for there not to be some beneficial option to play with a full cult army. The above rumors about the cult armies seems to contradict each other a little.

**winterman**

Yeah it kinda reminds me of the eldar rumors of last year, lots of conflicting stuff that will hopefully become more clear once the tried and true rumors mongers chime in.

As far as the rumors, I'm guessing some of it might be a bity off. The tzeentch thing, for example, maybe an additional upgrade for the squad similar to what they have now (ie start with two wounds with option for terminator armor stats). SAme could be said for FNP death guard (start with T4/5, can choose to add FNP for x points). That is just plain conjecture on my part but is how I'm thinking it will work.

**Nuwisha**

Wow this just seems so amazingly predictable..

Its like breaking a vase because you think it looks funny, then reglueing it with elmer's glue and trying to pass it off as better.

**H.B.M.C.**

"It's not that daemons are removed, it's just that they are generic and have one stat line. There is no separate entry for Bloodletters or Daemonettes or Screamers or whatever anymore. Sadly, the same is true for the greater daemons as well. Much more generic. On the upside, I don't believe either takes up space on the force org chart any more."

Umm... what???

No, really - WHAT???

One statline for all Daemons, and one for GD's? There's simplification, there's dumbing down, and then there's down right f**king insane.

Allow me to be the first to jerk my knee and say that this decision, if true, is possibly one of the worst ideas in the long sad history of bad ideas.

BYE

**Asmodai**

Clearly Ultramarines Tactical Marines and Dark Angels Tactical Marines are different enough to base entire Codexes around the distinction.

The Keeper of Secrets and Great Unclean One? Obviously just a cosmetic difference.

**Balfazar**

Well, that all sounds like garbage. My fears have come true... removal of Legions, crippling of the myriad of armoury/troop options I loved and generic daemons as a final slap in the face. I guess I'll get my Chaos on eBay while people are excited about the impending new rules.

I'm happy for TS players though, karma dictates some time on top after a long period of misery. Maybe they'll end up like Assault Cannons; a testament to GWs inept 'balancing'.

**ph34r**

April fool's day was weeks ago, GW. Now show us the real codex.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Hold on now, take a step back before going mental.

Looking at the first rumor posted:

-Marks are simpler, ie Khorne gives +1 attack, Slaanesh +1 Initiative, Nugle +1 Toughness, and Tzeentch +1 armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save.

-Troops - there are normal marines as troops as well as legion specific ones. Only the legion specific marines get access to legion specific weapons.

See that last bit? There will be something to differentiate the Legions from the regular Chaos Marines with a Mark. Maybe this will actually make the legions more distinctive - no longer can a squad with the Mark of Khorne in a Black Legion army take Chain Axes, and only World Eaters can. One would assume this means that the World Eaters would have extra restrictions for their army/etc than say a Chaos army with a Troop Marine squad with the Mark of Khorne would give you.

As to demons? One statline is dumb, yes. However I think this is their solution to the current problem that exists with Demons now anyway: Only Bloodletters & Demonettes are taken, and Horrors/Flamers & Plague Bearers are never taken. And when Bloodletters & Demonettes are taken enmasse, they make for pretty abusive Demon Bomb armies.

Do I think that one statline is the best answer? Probably not. But it is one way to make the Demons equal so that armies based on any mark will use them (assuming they can still summon and move+assault and have some way to ignore armor saves). As it is now you have this huge imbalance in the sets of demons, and I've never even seen the Fast Attack Demons used - because guess what, they don't ignore armor saves and when a unit can't ignore armor saves, they don't get taken.

**the_trooper**

But I just got Anngrath for my birthday!

**Mannahnin**

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 1:35 AM
Hold on now, take a step back before going mental.

As it is now you have this huge imbalance in the sets of demons, and I've never even seen the Fast Attack Demons used - because guess what, they don't ignore armor saves and when a unit can't ignore armor saves, they don't get taken.

I love me some Furies. S5, T4, I5, and 12” move to make the summoning scatter rarely an issue = easily as good as Daemonettes for the same price. Rending is not the be-all, end-all.

Otherwise I largely agree. It’s a bit early to be flipping out, and it does seem that they’re preserving the Cult armies. It is a bit of a bummer for the fans of the various undivided legions (especially all you IW player with Basilisks), but I’m not prepared to sell my CSM army just yet.

I don’t like the sounds of generic daemons (much less generic Greaters); they were useable in the first 3^rd ed codex, but hardly popular. I do agree that it may be the way to get Horrors (and even Plaguebearers) some more love.

**grimshawl**

Hopefully most of these rumours will turn out to be false, otherwise Chaos looks to be turning into poo.

**Alpharius**

Posted By grimshawl on 04/23/2007 7:11 AM
Hopefully most of these rumours will turn out to be false, otherwise Chaos looks to be turning into poo.

Ha! No kidding!

And, no more Blastmaster Havocs for Emperor's Children?

Why? (And yes, I am upset over the amount of time and money it took to build said squad!)

**Voodoo Boyz**

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/23/2007 6:30 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 1:35 AM
Hold on now, take a step back before going mental.

As it is now you have this huge imbalance in the sets of demons, and I've never even seen the Fast Attack Demons used - because guess what, they don't ignore armor saves and when a unit can't ignore armor saves, they don't get taken.

I love me some Furies. S5, T4, I5, and 12” move to make the summoning scatter rarely an issue = easily as good as Daemonettes for the same price. Rending is not the be-all, end-all.

Otherwise I largely agree. It’s a bit early to be flipping out, and it does seem that they’re preserving the Cult armies. It is a bit of a bummer for the fans of the various undivided legions (especially all you IW player with Basilisks), but I’m not prepared to sell my CSM army just yet.

I don’t like the sounds of generic daemons (much less generic Greaters); they were useable in the first 3^rd ed codex, but hardly popular. I do agree that it may be the way to get Horrors (and even Plaguebearers) some more love.

Dude, you may like Furies, but you have this uncanny ability to take some underpar units. I've never seen them used in 40k. I had no idea what the models looked like till I saw them used in Fantasy.

Rending really is the be-all end-all. Demonettes kill more MEQ's than the Furies do. Demonettes can be thrown against Terminators and win, or at least do better than the Furies will, by far. They can kill Monsterous Creatures, they can kill tanks. They also have a better leadership.

Fact is Rending is that good and they're an effective I5 and with the right summoning delivery method (which everyone also takes) scattering isn't an issue.

I mean seriously, if something can't ignore armor saves in some way (with good Strength or huge numbers of attacks to back it up) then they're going to get completely ignored as a CC unit, period.

No one takes Flayed Ones or Wraiths as CC units, they don't ignore armor. No one takes anything but Demonettes or Bloodletters, because they're the only ones that ignore armor saves. People don't take gaunts to kill things, they take them to tie things up till other things (namely things that can ignore armor saves) can get there safely and kill their target.

I'm going to guess that GW has been quite Rending happy lately. Putting it on Harlies, Death Company, etc. That the demons will have a common statline, with probably 2 base attacks and Rending, in order to make them worth taking, other wise they're going to totally suck and will be ignored, like every other CC unit that can't ignore armor saves with at least a champion.

**Boss Salvage**

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/23/2007 12:31 AM
"It's not that daemons are removed, it's just that they are generic and have one stat line. There is no separate entry for Bloodletters or Daemonettes or Screamers or whatever anymore. Sadly, the same is true for the greater daemons as well. Much more generic. On the upside, I don't believe either takes up space on the force org chart any more."

Umm... what???

No, really - WHAT???

One statline for all Daemons, and one for GD's? There's simplification, there's dumbing down, and then there's down right f**king insane.

Allow me to be the first to jerk my knee and say that this decision, if true, is possibly one of the worst ideas in the long sad history of bad ideas.

BYE

I defecate in rage upon hearing these Chaos rumors.

The book comes out in, what, September? So I've got about 4 months to play the living hell out of the only army I've ever completely painted, fluffed and enjoyed playing. So be it.

... though I do like vindicators ... o_O

- Boss Salvage

**Hellfury**

Ahhh the days of 3rd edition demons and greater demons has reared its ugly face again.

**keichi246**

Hmmm...

I guess I'm one of the few people who overall likes these rumors.
I can see good, valid reasons for every single change mentioned.

(and before anyone asks - I have a non maxed out Iron Warriors army.)

Yes - while some of the changes are less palatable; they are kind of necessary. Like demons - As has been pointed out - the lesser demons defintely had very huge differences between them power wise. Now they won't. I do wish they had kept the greater demons distinct - but even then I can see why they did waht they did.

Come on. How many of you DIDN'T see the "we're gonna nerf the heck out Chaos" light flashing for a while now? Really. Demonbomb and Iron Warrior HS of death were just too easy to do.

No -before I start wailing and gnashing my teeth - I'm going to wait and see what happens with the codex myself. If they went down a little in power - fine. Maybe I'll stop hearing groans the moment I say "I'm playing Iron Warriors".

**Da Boss**

Hmmm.
I'm gonna wait until the codex comes out before passing judgement.
I dislike the "no armoury" attitude these days though. it works in fantasy because you have magic items, but 40K doesn't really have wacky "wargear" anymore.

**Alpharius**

Brimstone over on Warseer:

Undivided Legions I'm not 100% sure what you mean but I'll give it a go.

The entire codex is undivided there are no Chaos power specific army lists in it (That's not to say you cannot create a Nurgle themed army for example you can and with far more flexiblity than before).

As to undivided lists things like the IW extra heavy support choice, Alpha legion funky cultists etc. are dead and gone.

I suspect that we're in for the Great Whitewashing come September(-ish)...

**Therion-**

Demons are not going to have a common statline. You people are so easily fooled it's not even funny.

By the way Voodoo I'm not sure if you've played daemonbombs but I've taken one to more than ten tournaments and I've delivered with infiltrators, turbo boosting bikers and Siren characters and my experience is that scattering is always an issue. Mounted Daemonettes are twice as good as Daemonettes and I like Furies a lot too. The only foot daemon I've liked is the Bloodletter because it's so outrageously underpriced (LD10, 3+ AS, T4 etc).

**Toreador**

Here is the latest rumour roundup posted by Brim on Warseer. Looks like generic daemon profiles until the second Chaos Codex comes out.

This is a collection of Chaos Marine rumours, these are rumours NOT facts, if you want facts wait for the codex.

I?ll be adding to it as more information becomes available and is not a complete list of codex contents.

HQ
Daemon Prince (can be winged but no daemonic speed) cannot be instakilled.
Chaos Lord (highly impressive new multipart plastic kit to be released)
Chaos Sorcerer (force weapon as standard).

N.B. No restricted units i.e. the Ancient enemies rule is gone.

These are all individual entries.

Elites

Possessed Chaos Space Marines (New models on the way which are a vast improvement on the more recent ones)
Dreadnoughts (still frenzy)
Veterans (only unit that can infiltrate)
Terminators ? Can be marked (new plastic kit, reasonably impressive but not that different from Imperial versions), points brought into line with Imperial Terminators.

Troops ? All troops come with bolter, bolt pistol CC weapon and grenades as standard.
Chaos Marines ? Can be marked
Cult Marines
Khorne Bezerkers (lose their Khornate Chain axes).
Plague Marines (lose their plague weapons but keep blight grenades)
Noise Marines (retain their options for sonic weaponary but may be more restricted, Doom caster is AP3).
Thousand Sons (Power armour save / 4+ Invul save) and bolters with inferno bolts (AP3)

Fast Attack

Raptors ? Can be marked (new champion model on the way) no 0-1 restriction.
Bikes ? Can be marked

Heavy Support

Obliterators ? Can be marked, S and T reduced to 4, no 0-1 restriction.
Defiler ? Loses indirect fire option but can be given a CC upgrade.
Vindicator (New plastic model for release).
Havocs
Predators

Misc Rumours
Codex follows the DA/Eldar format.
No books of Chaos in the codex.
Daemons (greater/lesser) are have generic stat lines (will be expanded upon in a Daemon/LatD codex).
New unit ? Chaos Spawn (1-3 cannot be split)
No basilisk option in the codex.
Wargear highly restricted ? Daemonic gifts are gone, options are all given in unit entries.
Daemon weapons standardised ? power weapon 1D6 attacks (if you roll a one you take a wound), can be upgraded with power specific options i.e. Khorne gives 2D6 attacks.
Any unit can be marked to the Chaos gods in the form of a Icon, marks are as follows ? Khorne (+1A), Nurgle (+1T), Slaanesh (+1I), Tzeentch (+1 to invul save (max 2+) if already present or gives a basic 5+ invul save).
Recut CSM sprue.
Special characters ? All survive and now include Huron Blackheart (model due for release) Ahriman has all chaos psychic powers and a force weapon as standard.

**Frazzled**

The rumors make the codex look less like Chaos marines and more like Codex Ultramarines with more skulls but no Assault Cannons HURR!

**Toreador**

Yes because daemons, cult troops, defilers, obliterators, daemon weapons, chaos sorcerers and possessed are so very Ultramarine.

**skyth**

Alpha Legion just got sent to the crapper. Only Vets can infiltrate? Bah.

**Hellfury**

I dont like the looks of some of the rumours, but I am giving "The Jervis Plan" the benefit of the doubt.

I know chaos needs a nerf in some aspects (well admittedly in many aspects) but he better do this right. Simplified rules and organization only goes so far, especially with chaos.

**Toreador**

And I am going to wait to make final judgement after the second dex comes out. Official LoTD rules just make me giddy if it is true.

Looks like a lot of releases this year.

**Frazzled**

Yes but the second codex may not come out for...well years.

**Asmodai**

Posted By Toreador on 04/23/2007 1:51 PM
My (Asmo's) Comments in Bold
HQ
Daemon Prince (can be winged but no daemonic speed) cannot be instakilled.
Chaos Lord (highly impressive new multipart plastic kit to be released)
Chaos Sorcerer (force weapon as standard).

This sounds reasonable.

Elites

Dreadnoughts (still frenzy)

I like this change. It answers the complaints about Heavy Support being saturated too.

Thousand Sons (Power armour save / 4+ Invul save) and bolters with inferno bolts (AP3)

4+ invulnerable? They could be very viable - depending on what their points end up being.

Fast Attack

Raptors – Can be marked (new champion model on the way) no 0-1 restriction.

Nice to see the restriction gone.

Heavy Support

Obliterators – Can be marked, S and T reduced to 4, no 0-1 restriction.

Happy dance. This fixes one of the biggest problems in the 3rd revised Dex.

Daemons (greater/lesser) are have generic stat lines (will be expanded upon in a Daemon/LatD codex).

Boo. It depends on how long until the release the next one. If it's 8 years/never (ala Ordo Xenos), this could get really old.

No basilisk option in the codex.

Fair. With the removal of indirect fire from the Defiler, IW can no longer out-IG the IG.

Wargear highly restricted – Daemonic gifts are gone, options are all given in unit entries.
Daemon weapons standardised – power weapon 1D6 attacks (if you roll a one you take a wound), can be upgraded with power specific options i.e. Khorne gives 2D6 attacks.

Yawn. Chaos HQs will all be about the same. Snoooze.

Special characters – All survive and now include Huron Blackheart (model due for release) Ahriman has all chaos psychic powers and a force weapon as standard.

How much do you want to bet that the new special character will be $40 and semi-mandatory (ala Eldrad)?

Overall, some good, some bad.

Wait and see on the implementation.

**skwpp**

Posted By chuckyhol on 04/18/2007 3:23 PM
and I think i'll be pinching my pennies.

Hehe, guess what i read at first here?

Anyways, even if daemons have similar statlines, does that really have to mean that they have similar abilites? Otherwise it just sucks... and i was painting up an emperors children army and all...