Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fair point, and we can hope it will be FAQed. Probably just measuring from the vehicle is the best solution, as it keeps it balanced while allowing maximum freedom for creativity in modeling.

Just wondering if there's a tentative date for when the "Troops" section of the Tactica will arrive? (And of course, the "Heavy" and "Fast" sections too )

(And I realize "real life" must take precedence! I'm just eager to read it all and plan my future purchases accordingly!)

So write your own. I'm sure the happy people of Dakka will inform you on any mistakes or misperceptions you might have about one unit or another. While I applaud Voodoo Boys on his efforts so far, there are a few of his conclusions I personally don't agree with and as such will not be influencing my army lists. What has been written so far should not be considered law, more like guidelines. Which is why anyone should feel free to contribute their thoughts about any unit.

Ordinarily, that would be good advice.

BUT, I've got ZERO experience playing with or against Orks!

In fact, the last time I remember playing against Orks was back in 2nd edition, when taking Terminators against a SAG was a very bad idea...

So, at this point, I'm going to base my assumptions (!) on what to purchase/field after reading the advice of the "experts".

(Of course, that won't stop me from fielding stuff that I like purely based upon looks/fun factor, etc.)

Alpharius wrote:Ordinarily, that would be good advice.
In fact, the last time I remember playing against Orks was back in 2nd edition, when taking Terminators against a SAG was a very bad idea...

Hint: It still is!

great stuff voodoo. not that it would keep me from building a big mek on bike, but your thoughts are very interesting nonetheless.

and did I get that right. you can put Nobs on bikes AND give them cybork bodys? Monowheelmob, here I come. WAAAGH!

I'm looking forward to the rest of your tactica.

Orlanth wrote:?Glory Hogs?

While I can se how it reads I cant imagine why GW would want to include such a rule.

The answer is disturbingly simple:

To keep power gamers from spamming them against MEQ's*

Guys so far this makes for excellent theory hammer, and the theory hammer arguments have been very sound. But how many of you have tried this out yet? Speaking of which I have a question:

Assuming you can take a PK+armed Nob with a mob of Shootaboyz, why would you ever take regular slugga boyz in the first place? Does anyone else remember how ineffective these guys were in the previous edition (before the introduction of the previous codex)? To quote Mr. Chambers:

"...Boyz were reduced to being a 'delivery system' for the Nob, useful only to ensure that he didn't just get picked off by enemy fire."
-pg 9, U.K. White Dwarf 235

Bear in mind this was back in 3rd edition before rules for the Assault Phase became more refined. Nevertheless I'm worried the basics still apply: If most of my boyz are going to be shot up before they even reach close combat only for their Strength 3 attacks to bounce off MEQ armor, why not give them a Strength 4, Assault 2 weapon they can fire on the way? IMO It's well worth the loss of one attack.

For what it's worth I hope I'm wrong I love the idea of huge hordes of Orkz charging headfirst towards the enemy, waving their choppas in a frenzy only to get stuck in. Depriving all my boyz of their sluggas and choppas leaves me with a slight tear to my eye

On a sidenote: Now that boyz cost about the same as a guardsman am I the only one who thinks they're well-priced? ~175pts** for a fully decked mob and PK Nob strikes me as good value! I'll be taking at least 3 ...all with Rokkitz!

Your thoughts

*Translation: everyone.
**No you sneaky gitz that's not accurate!

I can see Sluggas being more useful if you run the dual weirdboyz. If you're constantly fleeting, you won't be doing much shooting, so the extra attacks are worth it.

So far most of the lists i have come up with are either lackings people or requier to meny to be static. Is there anyway to change this?

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote:Assuming you can take a PK+armed Nob with a mob of Shootaboyz, why would you ever take regular slugga boyz in the first place?

My inkling, not borne out of any experience, is that trukk boyz will be more effective with sluggas. They simply won't have enough time, on the way in, to shoot at much.

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote:Assuming you can take a PK+armed Nob with a mob of Shootaboyz, why would you ever take regular slugga boyz in the first place? Does anyone else remember how ineffective these guys were in the previous edition (before the introduction of the previous codex)?

You won’t get much value out of those guns when you’re piling out of a truck and into assault.

Sure, you still get to fire before assaulting with one more shot, but you lose but then you get the extra attack with the slugga boy in combat. The higher ST of the shooting attack makes it look like the better deal, but with rubbish BS and good WS it ends up working out the same against the WS 4, T 4 of an MEQ. Thing is, the slugga boy’s attacks count towards combat resolution, and he keeps getting his bonus attack every subsequent round as well.

So, basically, footslogging slugga boyz are rubbish, like they were in the old codex. But that’s probably a good thing, a troopers marching up the field to fight someone in hand to hand really should be rubbish, unless they’re a skilled infiltrator or superhumanly fast.

But piling out of a truck, the slugga boy has distinct advantages over the shoota boy.

Well it's taken me a really long time to get this continuing, and I'm sorry for the delay. Basically I was on travel for work, my responsibilities went through the roof, and I'm finishing up my Masters degree. All of that took up much of my time in the past two weeks and this has been delayed far too long! So without adieu, here is the Troops section!


Unit Evaluation: Troops

This is where all the excitement comes from in the new Ork dex. For the first time in a long time it looks like a horde army is not only viable, but potentially, dare I say it, top tier in a Warhammer 40k book.

All of this is because of the amazing Utility present in what looks to be an anemic troops section. Well as you’re going to see, despite there only being two unit entries there is a plethora of choice in the Troops section, and most of it is good!

Ork Boyz
Utility: Competitive

Phil Kelly rolled up the four main entries for Orks in the previous codex into one entry right here, and boy did he do a hell of a job.

The points cost for Ork Boyz is on par with Guardsmen, despite all the buffs Orks get to Morale and Assault. This, combined with the new special rules for Orks gives us a lot of options in how Boyz are used in game and has new implications for almost any configuration you can use for Orks in this entry.

Equipping your Boyz
Lets state up front a couple of generics:

Any Ork can be given Frag grenades for the normal price you’d expect to see it at.
The only special weapons Ork Boyz can have are either Big Shootas or Rokkits
Special weapon quantities are limited by the number of Boyz in the Mob. Basically you get 1 special weapon for every 10 Orks in a Mob, to a maximum of 3.

After all this you have two ways to arm your Boyz – Close Combat or Shooty.

Slugga Boyz

These are now simply Boyz armed with a Pistol and CCW. There really isn’t much more to them than that. This is a big decrease from their old Choppa rules, however these Boyz are now 33% cheaper than they used to be points wise, and with the new Furious Charge rules, the Boyz are still very effective in close combat.

Shoota Boyz

These Boyz cost the same as their Slugga counterparts, but are much improved over their old versions. Shootas are now S4 AP6 Assault 2, 18”. Because of this change in weapon, the BS2 of the Shoota Boyz is fairly negated, especially for their points cost.

Ard Boyz

For a relatively substantial cost, you can give 0-1 unit of Boyz in an army a 4+ armor save. Some people love this idea, others don’t. I’m in the latter category as I feel that the 4+ save really just makes them too expensive for their own good. Half the appeal of Orks is massive numbers, this is quite frankly a lot of points for an armor save that will be ignored by most heavy weapons in the game, and then some.

Probably the best thing I can say about ‘Ard Boyz is that if you find that you need to fill some points, putting the upgrade on a Trukk Bound squad isn’t a terrible idea. It’s probably not worth it, but it can be somewhat useful for Sluggas in a Trukk. For Footslogging Mobz, just avoid it.

Weapons and Equipment

Weapons for Boyz are pretty straight forward – Big Shootas or Rokkit are all you get to choose from. For me, the choice seems really clear. If you want Dakka – buy Shoota Boyz. From playing Orks for years under the old codex, I’ve found that you never can have enough Rokkits, and that hasn’t changed in the new codex. If you need long range multi-shot weapons, they’re available in other places, but you can NEVER get enough rokkits.

Nob equipment is likewise just as straight forward. You can chose between a Power Klaw or a Big Choppa. One is a power fist and the other one is just +2 Strength and allows armor saves. There really isn’t a choice here. S8 or S9 on the charge and ignoring armor saves, but striking last on a model that’s saddled with I3 anyway really is the winner, every time.

Other equipment available is the Bosspole and/or ‘eavy Armor. The Bosspole can mitigate LD issues, which is key for Orks who are getting low in numbers (Trukkers!), so it should be considered almost mandatory in any case except the most dire ones where you are running out of points to fit just one last squad in. ‘eavy armor should probably be avoided like the plague. There’s literally no point to equipping him with it in a normal unit of Boyz. He should never have to take saves on his own, that’s what all the Boyz are there for!



Organizing the Mobz

Each style of Ork Boy really suits itself to one method of play.

Slugga Boyz like being mounted in Trukks rather than footslogging it. With the new Trukk rules and careful use of the new Waaagh rules, your delivery of Slugga Boyz becomes a much more reliable affair. They are limited to 12 Models, but they can hit pretty hard for their points, just don’t forget the PK Nob and don’t bother with any weapon upgrades – most of the time when you’re charging you really aren’t going to be trying to get shots in, and it robs you of a CC attack.

Shoota Boyz are now the premier footslogging unit. With their effective 24” range after moving and shooting, they can manage to engage the enemy as they close the distance to (presumably) get into CC, which many times is a pretty good place to be, despite the fact that they’re “Shoota Boyz”. This is based on the notion that they can take Power Klaw Nobz, which is a point of contention for some rules arguments, but it seems the overall opinion coming out of the new Dex is that they can. This is important because without the PK Nob in a Shoota Mob, their overall effectiveness drops drastically.

That all said, assuming they can take a PK Nob, they are one of the most effective units in the Codex. On foot, my preferred mob size is 20 Boyz. It keeps the squad pretty cheap and maneuverable, and like any horde army, you really want to maximize on the number of units in your army, and 20 seems to be the best balance – mainly because it gives you two special weapons in the unit.

Other Configurations

Shootas really don’t work so well in Trukks. These Mobz are just meant for CC, where Sluggas are just better.

Footslogging Sluggas is more arguable as a configuration than Shootas in a Trukk, but to be honest footslogging CC troops has never been a good idea in 4th edition. Even with the Waaagh move, the Shoota Boyz with a PK Nob really just makes such a better unit for the job that they just completely eclipse Slugga Boyz. There is one exception to this, as mentioned in the HQ section. If you take two Warpheads and just keep trying for the Waaagh Power and hopefully get a Fleet move each turn, Sluggas are a decent footslogging unit. But this is an exception and not the rule.

General Usage Comments

Sloggin Shootas
Shoota Boyz on foot really have almost no need for an explanation. Combo them with a KFF Mek and run forward, shoot, and when the opportunity presents itself, Waaagh and Charge! The biggest thing is to remember to keep your Power Klaw Nob buried safely behind a mass of bodies to make it hard to range snipe him or ever have him get stuck in a CC Killzone where the enemy can force his removal. You should have a lot of Boyz in your Mobz, use them well to shield your PK Nobz in assault and make sure they always swing by being within 2” of as many Orks who are in B2B contact with the enemy as possible. That’s really the biggest trick one must learn when playing a horde of Orks. Everything else including squad spacing and deployment is based on the opponent face and the terrain available.

Trukkin Sluggas
Sluggas, especially in a Trukk, really need a few key words of wisdom. With only 12 Boyz in the Mob, you can suffer from LD issues, so a Bosspole is always a worthy investment. A few key things here should be mentioned as far as usage. When used in great groups, you should try and maximize the one Waaagh move you get per game. Try and set it up so that all of your Trukk Mobz hit the enemy all in one turn to maximize the effect. You shouldn’t get in a position where using the Waaagh move only helps one Mob of Boyz. Additionally there is the issue of Mob placement once disembarking from a Trukk. The words spoken above for Nob placement behind a healthy amount of Boyz is just as applicable here as it is in the Shoota Boyz footslogging section.

Keep him within 2” of as many Boyz who are in B2B contact as possible! The secret to pulling this off is the order in which you move your models when charging. Per the rules, you move the closest model in B2B first, and then the rest are up to you, so long as you get as many models in B2B who can make it there as possible. The trick is to move all those models first, and then the rest move up to pad the killzone with the Nob in it, while at the same time keeping the Nob within 2” of as many models in B2B contact as possible. This prevents your opponent from pulling models in B2B as normal casualties and denying the Nob his chance to swing the Klaw.

One thing that should be mentioned from my experience with the new Trukkers compared to the old ones, and this is for players of the Old Orks, especially Kult of Speed, is that you must remember: your trukk mobz are not guaranteed to kill almost any target anymore! This wasn’t always true with the old rules, but with the limitation of I3 on the Boyz, you really want to be careful in how you engage units with multiple attacks per model (assault squads, Chaos Marine squads, etc). They will almost always strike before you do, so set your charges up carefully so that the kill zones aren’t too large, but more towards a flank of a unit where you will get fewer attacks hitting you first. Sure you’ll kill less models, but in the aftermath in the next round of assault, you can outnumber the enemy by a greater margin and bring your numbers (and PK Nob) to bear with a much greater effect.

Gretchin
Utility: Very Poor

What can I say about this unit. They removed their cover save giving ability for Orks, but kept their mine clearance abilities. So basically, the reason you took them before has been taken away.

They’ve been given BS3, which is pretty good except for the fact that in their basic units Grots can only ever have 12” Single Shot Lasguns.

Honestly, there isn’t anything I can say here. The Slavers (or Runtherderz in the new Dex) can’t get Rokkits or other upgrades anymore that make them useful. Heck the only use I can see for them is screening the Boyz from assault, and even that could probably be better fulfilled with another unit of Boyz.

Look at it this way, a unit of 30 Grotz costs the same amount of points that buy you 20 Orks.

The only good thing about Grots is that they make Big Gunz and Killa Kanz more appealing. As their own unit, they’re one of the most useless things in the Codex. I literally can not conceive of a scenario where they are worth the points you will have to spend on them. This makes them worse than any other unit rated "Poor" in this Tactica.

Troops Summary

Well out of the two choices available, I hope it’s become clear which one you want to use and which one you want to avoid.

Fortunately with the way the Codex is laid out, the one choice available to you gives you such a wide variety of choices for how the unit will play that there is nothing to be too upset about.

About the only thing I can say in summary is that when choosing how to field your Boyz, either in Trukks or on Foot, the old 40k adage of “What’s good to take once, it’s good to take in multiples” very much holds true for Orks. The most effective lists are the ones that will run multiple units of Footsloggers or multiple units of Trukks. There are cases where one or two unit of Trukkers can compliment a foot horde, but in those cases, it’s sometimes better to be running Storm Boyz for that role instead of Sluggas in a Trukk.

words of wisdom there, Voodoo. I too am annoyed by the new gretchin, I'd really hoped they'd have _more_ options, ideally making a full 'grot liberation front' army playable.

Any thoughts on the '6 trukks full of boyz' army lists that some seem very keen on? Combined with bikers and stormboys, it would give a very mobile army, but also seems very fragile?

So, what about Battlewagon Boyz? Shootas or sluggas?

quick question guys: can a Kommando Nob get Rokkits?

I'm just asking, because I have an idea for a new Nob.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:One thing that should be mentioned from my experience with the new Trukkers compared to the old ones, and this is for players of the Old Orks, especially Kult of Speed, is that you must remember: your trukk mobz are not guaranteed to kill almost any target anymore! This wasn’t always true with the old rules, but with the limitation of I3 on the Boyz, you really want to be careful in how you engage units with multiple attacks per model (assault squads, Chaos Marine squads, etc). They will almost always strike before you do, so set your charges up carefully so that the kill zones aren’t too large, but more towards a flank of a unit where you will get fewer attacks hitting you first. Sure you’ll kill less models, but in the aftermath in the next round of assault, you can outnumber the enemy by a greater margin and bring your numbers (and PK Nob) to bear with a much greater effect.

You may want to note that while this is particularily true for small squads (such as trukk boyz), it's true to some degree for every mob. Any squad with a high number of strong attacks is bad for orks if it has a higher initiave. I played a proxy game wednesday, and my opponent played 13th company. Those wolf things were absolute murder, with I4 and 3 S4 attacks on the charge they tore thru orks and pared down kill zones before my boyz could attack.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Phil Kelly rolled up the four main entries for Orks in the previous codex into one entry right here, and boy did he do a hell of a job.

Voodoo, I would refrain from waxing lyrical about how Phil Kelly did such a good job on the Ork Mobz, by the way other units and wargear are handled, and the poverty of actual choices in arming the Nob; I would put the success of the unit purely down to monkey chance.

A twelve year old could have written rules as good, and not screwed up gretchin in the process - let alone most of the eiltes.

Orlanth wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Phil Kelly rolled up the four main entries for Orks in the previous codex into one entry right here, and boy did he do a hell of a job.

Voodoo, I would refrain from waxing lyrical about how Phil Kelly did such a good job on the Ork Mobz, by the way other units and wargear are handled, and the poverty of actual choices in arming the Nob; I would put the success of the unit purely down to monkey chance.

A twelve year old could have written rules as good, and not screwed up gretchin in the process - let alone most of the eiltes.

I don't think so. Kelly made footsloggers and trukk boyz, sluggas and shootas, equally (or near enough) viable.

I3 and 2"killzones are what hurt the most.

Trukk Mounted Slugga Boyz want stikkbombs or stikk bomb chuckaz on there Trukk.. With the mobility of a trukk, you should be able to find some cover to assault over when assaulting the enemy. If you do this you strike at the same time. Good stuff for Orks.

Pariah Press wrote:

I don't think so. Kelly made footsloggers and trukk boyz, sluggas and shootas, equally (or near enough) viable.

Why are you satisfied with such crap. So they got a unit right, "best codex evar". No sorry, GW need to get all the units right. Stores are closing, sales are falling, PP is catching up on market share. The time to sit around in Nottingham and say they are artistes with unparalelled design vision has past. Only a few diehards on Warseer and ten year old kids who buy White Dwarf believe this anymore.

GW have dropped the ball on timing - they should have had orks for Christmas. They dropped the ball on pricing - 24 models for £100, mostly plastic. They dropped the ball on options - one of the main draws of Orks was customisation. And its no excuse that they dumbed down to appeal to mass market. Kids like to customise their orks too - I have seen it enough times. They dropped the ball on security - nuff said. Above all they dropped the ball on this sucky codex.

It doesnt matter that there are some good units. It doesnt matter that there are some viable builds. Those are only factors i the success in a codex because most players have for too long been living in a justified fear that GW will completely ruin a codex army as a playable force so that any revision that allows the army itself to remain viable on the tabletop can be deemed a success. This speaks volumes about the true quality, read lack of, of this game; and a deep lack of trust and hope in GW design procedure.

The fact remains the vast majority of the units are pretty much useless either in comparison to other units available, or even outright. They did a worse job of internal balance here than in just about any codex. It makes DA seem well written in comparison. It shows an extreme lack of design talent. I am not exagerrating when I say if you found a handful of young teenage players and let them rewrite the codex you would have a better hit rate of balanced units than GW studio.

I agree,
the whole game is shifting towards elites. If you don't belive me check out any of the horde armies available. there used to be a time when a mass of foot sloggers could get the job done in 40k. I wonder if GW realizes the quality of the codexes they are putting out. Or if the loop holes and sink holes in the codex just 'never occured to them.'

gdurant wrote:I agree,
the whole game is shifting towards elites. If you don't belive me check out any of the horde armies available. there used to be a time when a mass of foot sloggers could get the job done in 40k. I wonder if GW realizes the quality of the codexes they are putting out. Or if the loop holes and sink holes in the codex just 'never occured to them.'

What I think is funny is that there is not a new codex out (DA, BA, Eldar, Nids, Chaos) that can hang with 100 shootaboyz with Pk knobs and 3 squads of lootas (That's probably around 1500pts or so with a cheap hq?).

I would say that they're building codex where the only things worth a damn are the elites/heavies/hqs, mainly, but this bias is going to make horde armies more and more effective (in my opinion).

Also, a mass of footslogging IG is still an effective army (if not top notch). Mass of footslogging Necrons is actually top tier.

So basically I don't agree at all, I guess. The game is shifting toward only three or four units in a codex being worth a crap, that I'll agree with.

Your right, I'm just bitter. I had am eldar foot slogging army in 3rd ed. Not that I don't enjoy playing mech, but I hate being pigeon oled into it.

Orlanth, I couldn't disagree with you more. There are always, always going to be some better choices than others. It's just the way it works. There are certain things you can cost very high, and they would still be worth it.

PP is doing well because they are new, and they do a decent job of getting product out. It's still new, and I keep hearing a lot of people getting frustrated with it. There isn't really any "perfect" game out there. THings are fun for awhile, but they can die off quickly.

As a whole the new Ork codex is a relatively decent, balanced list. But what I don't get is all the vitriol thrown at what isn't even released yet. We don't have a clue how close to finished this was, or how complete. Only time will tell what kind of an army it will make, or be. Tyranids took quite awhile before people started making good, competitive lists with it, and I am not just talking about Godzilla nid lists. Over time we figure out things. Mathhammer and gut instinct are only part of the equation. Real world play is another.

But it looks like it is mostly a success. There are quite a few different armies you can make from the list, and styles. All mech, horde, small elite, and so far most look rather viable, but not so overpowering. But again, until the book is released and we have played with it awhile, we shouldn't make any firm judgements.

Eldar didn't have an army box for release, and had to wait awhile to get it. It's nice for that release, but not a killer. I am sure quite a few of the new model boxes are going to sell. The box is for the people that already have orks. It's the new stuff. As the cycle goes and they get all the plastics done the army box will get released. It's not exactly a killer to not have it out right away.

As far as Eldar go, they are competitive without Falcons. With Falcons they are a little over the top. I still run foot slogging eldar, and they do fine. Tournaments make certain lists come to the fore, and sure things. Falcons are almost a sure thing.

I am going to have to say that I really only think 3 or 4 units are useless in the dex. Every other one does have a use, but maybe not the most competitive choice. But as people get use to lootas, they are also going to get use to negating them.

The only things I really find useless in the dex are flash gitz, meganobz, and burna boyz. Everything else has it's place, but maybe isn't the most competitive for it's slot. I have already found out from my games that lootas aren't always the best tool. Masses of low ap fire aren't a sure thing in a list that has a ranged problem vs high armour and toughness creatures. Rokkits and Tankbustas are definately must haves in a balanced list.

I am also going to have to say that I am liking the ardboyz. For 10pts they are still a very cheap, well armoured choice. Against certain armies they can be a game saver. They can actually survive first contact and fire from quite a few things. Not a must have, but a very nice tool. Hormagaunts don't even want to get near them...

Footslogging slugga boyz are still quite viable, and with a weirdboy and the waagh! can get across the board quite fast, and really give up a lot of their shooting while doing this, so it is even more vital to get as many attacks in on the charge as you can. This is where eavy armour can become a game saver. Surviving those first hits so you still have contact is really good. I wouldn't take a huge mob of them unless I was playing Apoc, but with almost everyone striking first against you it can save you.

But really, depending on what flavor of ork army you are going to run, certain units become a lot more viable than others.

It's going to be an interesting time...

So you think grots are useful? Or did you just forget them?

That one is a bit of a mixed bag. I really didn't think grots were all that useful in the old game, and still don't really think they are worth it. They would have to be absolutely dirt cheap AND give the save for me to really see a reason to use them. They weren't that dirt cheap before, and failing morale just made them go away.

Things I like better about them now. Even when failing morale checks they are on the board. They are a little better at shooting. Squighounds give you a chance to keep them around.

But there is no real way 2 of them are as effective as a single ork. I did cause people to shoot at them instead of my orks, but again, why not just take orks.

They did have a shining moment though, and it had nothing to do with the grots. Flyrant came in and attacked my boss, who survived the round. most of the grots were dead, but the herders with sticks were still there. Charged them into the fight reducing the tyrant by two attacks, which allowed the boss to eventually clean his clock. The grots helped out with outnumbering....

Grots are useful. They can help with out numbering in Combat, are super cheap scoring units, have runtherds that lower enemy attacks, can cause the odd failed target priority test and can clear minefields (awesome until the vanilla marine codex gets rewritten). I don't think they are awesome all the time, but add some interesting Metagame options. You buddy is using Mine laying Whirlwinds to hose your boys, bring in some cheap grot squads to clear them. Your Opponent is running huge CC monsters that kill all you elite units, bring some grots are a skirmish screen/tarpit. Are they super cool must takes units, Not that I know, but if I have 50 points or so left over after buying the main units in my army, I'll consider taking Grots.

Orlanth wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

I don't think so. Kelly made footsloggers and trukk boyz, sluggas and shootas, equally (or near enough) viable.

Why are you satisfied with such crap. So they got a unit right, "best codex evar".

I fail to see how you could conflate my statement disagreeing that a twelve year old could have written the Ork Codex with "best codex evar." Please, take your prepared rant about "PP" and GW's business practices to another thread, as this is the thread for "Ork Takktics."

As far as the substance of your rant, that nearly every unit in the new codex is worthless, I disagree. There are so many good HQ and Fast Attack options that I can't fit them into a force org chart, and quite enough other options to keep my Ork army looking quite diverse, without compromising much on effectiveness.

Toreador wrote:Orlanth, I couldn't disagree with you more. There are always, always going to be some better choices than others. It's just the way it works. There are certain things you can cost very high, and they would still be worth it.

True enough, I cannot expect perfection, but I can expect some form of balance. This codex has none.

Toreador wrote:As a whole the new Ork codex is a relatively decent, balanced list. But what I don't get is all the vitriol thrown at what isn't even released yet. We don't have a clue how close to finished this was, or how complete.

All my comments are based on the leaked codex. Why are my comments invalid because the codex is not confirmed, HOW ABOUT THE WHOLE THREAD, in fact if in your opinion the codex is beyond comment why are you even here?

Toreador wrote:But it looks like it is mostly a success. There are quite a few different armies you can make from the list, and styles. All mech, horde, small elite, and so far most look rather viable, but not so overpowering. But again, until the book is released and we have played with it awhile, we shouldn't make any firm judgements.

Again both my points. First the "phew I dont have to scrap my whole army" being the definition of success. In fact it only proves failure. As for not making judgements - isnt everyone? Are comments only valid if they like the Codex?

Toreador wrote:I am sure quite a few of the new model boxes are going to sell. The box is for the people that already have orks. It's the new stuff. As the cycle goes and they get all the plastics done the army box will get released. It's not exactly a killer to not have it out right away.

Yes some people will buy it, some people buy cocaine, some people buy fast cars that youn can never drive to their potential on the open road without commiting a serious traffic offense. Doesnt mean they are good deals.
Do you actually support the idea of IIRC 22 plastic miniatures, a vehicle and two metal ones for £100. That is ridiculous even by GW pricing standards.

Toreador wrote:The only things I really find useless in the dex are flash gitz, meganobz, and burna boyz.

Gretchen are useless too, they make Pariahs and heavy support krootox look good, and compared to the boyz mob its a joke. Nobz in general are going to be so outmoded by lootas and now the only viable way of getting a burna model in your army is with mek or kommandos. Those lovely characterful models that really spell out orkiness - largely sidelined.

Toreador wrote:I am also going to have to say that I am liking the ardboyz.......Footslogging slugga boyz are still quite viable....

Like I said, they got a unit right from time to time, and our low expectations of GW design skills turn that into a major victory.

Pariah Press wrote:I fail to see how you could conflate my statement disagreeing that a twelve year old could have written the Ork Codex with "best codex evar." Please, take your prepared rant about "PP" and GW's business practices to another thread, as this is the thread for "Ork Takktics."

Its all part of the big picture. The very principles of what makes a successful codex has been skewed by players low expectations. Comparisons to other systems are relevant.

Pariah Press wrote:As far as the substance of your rant, that nearly every unit in the new codex is worthless, I disagree. There are so many good HQ and Fast Attack options that I can't fit them into a force org chart, and quite enough other options to keep my Ork army looking quite diverse, without compromising much on effectiveness.

So if you like the codex its an 'opinion', but if you dont its a 'rant'. I see.





IN GENERAL.

Sorry people are failing to see the big picture because they are so used to fearing seeing an army wrecked as a playable force that they dont see how a codex can suck and still remain playable.

They got a Troops unit right (though fairly bland with Nob options), they got the other one horribly wrong. Oh how impressive. 50% hit rate of getting units right, in TROOPS.

Look to elites. Lootas interesting, lets call that a tick. Kommandoes also. Meganobz, Burnas and Nobz get an X. They got 40% 'right' in Elites and that is just on internal balance.

I ignored Tankbustas completely, the rules for them are so mind bogglingly stupid I dont even have to bother comparing them with anything else. Honestly I have thought for a long while whether this whole leak is a hoax, because I cannot see how Glory Hogs could possibly get into print. But then its GW studio, so all bets are off; sometimes I wonder if their design team have enough smarts to drool.

Then Fast Attack and Heavy Support, ok admittedly you have some good stuff here, but the FA and HS is jammed full of decent options at the same time that other slots are vacant of real choice, frustrating really. Even so there are some lemons. Unlike SM there are no options for swapping things around to get some of the fast stuff as troops. Options are for marines, and don't say this is because of the new standardisation, DA can swap over the troops for variety, but all orks have the same build.

Thats the real kicker, all orks are the same. No Goffs, No Evil Suns, no this, no that. At least in the Eldar codex they gave a nod to the various craftworlds, bikes and rangers become troops, wraithguard can become troops too so if you want fluffy craftworld army you can actually do it, even Iyanden at a pinch.
But not so orks, the most varied race of all. The only real nod to a change is the inclusion of a Kult of Stomp with Dreads as troops.

Furthermore not only are orks the same, each ork is the same. What are nobz now but uniformed klaw carriers. Sure they had klaws before, but at least they had variety through the armoury. GW might as well produce one model and be done with it.
All the character bits = bosspole. Great. All the looted vehicles = one looted wagon stat. I like that battlewagons can be tooled up to be almost identical to a Russ but that is it for content.

When it comes to character we knew there would be some sacrifices in the dumbing down and stripping of armoury sections, but they did this without any of the compensations giving even lip service to variety and robbed the orks of any true versatility. Sure there are some nice builds but they are as packaged as the rank and file troops ever were. Marines, let alone Guard are less uniform than new orks. Ironic really.

When it comes to getting things right with this codex they score less than 50% in internal consistency, they do get some things right, but they got more wrong than right. I havent put a pass mark to the characterisation as its too intangible to judge, yet you might read that I am not impressed. Even so 50% is not an A grade, more like a D.

Codex Orks : Grade D