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And yet your gushing over lootas. 15 pt models, T4, 6+ save, LD 7 and cant even get a nob with a bosspole.. Yes their gun is 48", but they are static as all get out. Which means if you put them near the back to take advantage of the range, there will be LOS issues because we don't play this game on an open field. To get the most LOS area, they will have to be moved to the front, and the more they can see the more of the enemy that can see them. Which unit has a larger bullseye painted onto it? A 5+ cover save isn't going to keep them around all that much. Lootas are dead by turn 2 if the enemy knows what they are, and lootas are rather screwed against Necrons with a forward Monolith. LD7 is quite a few failed target priority checks in which their guns will have to go plink against its side. This is also an issue with landraiders, but those are a bit less common.

At least tankbustas have the option of move and shoot, they can also hide behind terrain incase you don't get first turn, something Lootas can't if you want to shoot when your turn comes around. They can be put into a battlewagon for some real AV12-14 protection and still function at full effectiveness. They at least have these options for survivability that lootas are missing.

Now, I'm not raggin on lootas. They are a very good unit, but they have just as many limatations as tankbustas (all be it different ones). Also their points isn't quite an issue. They are 15 points and there is nothing else in the codex that can do what they do, because of this, we are stuck at 15 points.

What about tankbustas in a Battlewagon? The extra speed will get them into range safely and quickly, and boarding planks allow one of them at least to use his tank hammer up close and personal. The rest can rain rokkity destruction on their foes from the back of their AV14 wagon, safe as they are going to get. The biggest risk is rolling a one on a bomb squig and exploding your own wagon.
You can kit out a battlewagon relatively cheaply, and their isn't much else worth dragging along from Heavy Support. Give it a killcannon to hammer armoured threats (and make it much more expensive, true) or just 4 Big Shootas so it can move and fire at enemy infantry.
I'll be trying this out anyway.

Posted By Jayden63 on 11/06/2007 7:05 AM
And yet your gushing over lootas. 15 pt models, T4, 6+ save, LD 7 and cant even get a nob with a bosspole.. Yes their gun is 48", but they are static as all get out. Which means if you put them near the back to take advantage of the range, there will be LOS issues because we don't play this game on an open field. To get the most LOS area, they will have to be moved to the front, and the more they can see the more of the enemy that can see them. Which unit has a larger bullseye painted onto it? A 5+ cover save isn't going to keep them around all that much. Lootas are dead by turn 2 if the enemy knows what they are, and lootas are rather screwed against Necrons with a forward Monolith. LD7 is quite a few failed target priority checks in which their guns will have to go plink against its side. This is also an issue with landraiders, but those are a bit less common.

At least tankbustas have the option of move and shoot, they can also hide behind terrain incase you don't get first turn, something Lootas can't if you want to shoot when your turn comes around. They can be put into a battlewagon for some real AV12-14 protection and still function at full effectiveness. They at least have these options for survivability that lootas are missing.

Now, I'm not raggin on lootas. They are a very good unit, but they have just as many limatations as tankbustas (all be it different ones). Also their points isn't quite an issue. They are 15 points and there is nothing else in the codex that can do what they do, because of this, we are stuck at 15 points.

The 48" range, the ability to take larger mob sizes (to avoid morale issues) and the fact that you can shoot at whatever you want makes the Lootas points cost a whole lot more attractive then the Tankbusta's points cost.

Posted By Jayden63 on 11/06/2007 7:05 AM
And yet your gushing over lootas. 15 pt models, T4, 6+ save, LD 7 and cant even get a nob with a bosspole.. Yes their gun is 48", but they are static as all get out. Which means if you put them near the back to take advantage of the range, there will be LOS issues because we don't play this game on an open field. To get the most LOS area, they will have to be moved to the front, and the more they can see the more of the enemy that can see them. Which unit has a larger bullseye painted onto it? A 5+ cover save isn't going to keep them around all that much. Lootas are dead by turn 2 if the enemy knows what they are, and lootas are rather screwed against Necrons with a forward Monolith. LD7 is quite a few failed target priority checks in which their guns will have to go plink against its side. This is also an issue with landraiders, but those are a bit less common.

At least tankbustas have the option of move and shoot, they can also hide behind terrain incase you don't get first turn, something Lootas can't if you want to shoot when your turn comes around. They can be put into a battlewagon for some real AV12-14 protection and still function at full effectiveness. They at least have these options for survivability that lootas are missing.

Now, I'm not raggin on lootas. They are a very good unit, but they have just as many limatations as tankbustas (all be it different ones). Also their points isn't quite an issue. They are 15 points and there is nothing else in the codex that can do what they do, because of this, we are stuck at 15 points.

They're LD7, but their large mob size will help them break through any target priority problems.

The difference is the range.  Yes they're static, but they also don't have to get close.  I've not played on a board where I couldn't get at least 1 or 2 places to deploy in at long range that would cover major areas of the board in a fire zone.  Likewise, anything that can try and get shots at them will struggle to do so at that range and can be engaged by other units or Lootas themselves. 

Additionally, their damage output vs. Skimmers is amazing, and they out-range Dakkafex's.  They have the number of shots to deal with almost anything and most of their problems can be solved with careful deployment. 

Add in all that, the fact that they're your only long range anti-tank that's near any kind of reliable, and then that they can always shoot at what they want while costing the same or less than the Tankbustas, and you have my reasons for supporting them as such.

Hey, I just want to say that I've really been enjoying this analysis.  I can't wait to face the new Orks on the battlefield.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/05/2007 6:47 AM

 

So how many shots does it take to get at least a 95% probability of bringing down a falcon?

Well, we know P = 1 - q^n. So, n = log(1 - P)/ log q, where "log" means natural logarithm (logarithm base e). Filling in P = .95 and q = 80/81 we get n = 241 (approximately), so 241 shots give you a 95% chance of bringing down at least one falcon. Of course, on average 241 shots will do much better than bring down one falcon (E = 2.98).

Posted By TragicNut on 11/06/2007 11:43 AM
So how many shots does it take to get at least a 95% probability of bringing down a falcon?

To get a straight out kill/immob = 242.

Though in reality you will have achived that earlier as a result of cumulative weapon destroyed etc.  Around the 200 mark.

See, this is why I just use averages to represent these things. Because all MathHammer should ever do is give you an idea or an approximation of what it will take to do something in game.

Yes, I've done the Statistics courses, I get what you're saying, but from my perspective that level of analysis isn't justified for the application.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/06/2007 12:14 PM
See, this is why I just use averages to represent these things. Because all MathHammer should ever do is give you an idea or an approximation of what it will take to do something in game.

Yes, I've done the Statistics courses, I get what you're saying, but from my perspective that level of analysis isn't justified for the application.

Using averges is fine, just stick to stating things in terms of averages else you can end up giving out pretty inaccurate info, even in terms of just approximation.

"if you have a unit of 12 Lootas open fire on a Falcon and you roll a 5 or 6 for the number of shots (3 per model), you have almost a 50% chance of getting an Immobilized or Destroyed result. "

Which is about 140% of the true figure, which seems awfully way out for a useful approximation.

Posted By shirou on 11/06/2007 10:58 AM
Hey, I just want to say that I've really been enjoying this analysis.  I can't wait to face the new Orks on the battlefield.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 11/05/2007 6:47 AM

 

Some people may disagree on the methods of statistics used for Lootas, but if there is one thing that everyone can agree on is that a unit of Lootas is one of the few credible threats to a Holofields + Spirit Stones Grav Tank in 40k.  Fact is that if a Mech Eldar player has to spend a turn in LOS and range of a unit of Lootas they will not like it. 

Have to chime in here on the tankboyz. Lootas are a primary choice, but Tankbustas come in a close second. Mass of shots are well and good, but ignoring saves can make a huge difference. I had a carnifex with stranglers marching down the center of the field, and even though I had better targets, I had to get rid of him and his TL barbed strangler. The Lootas struggled with him, and after the dust had cleared on several rounds of shooting, they had not scored a wound. They would have much better served shooting the, gaunts, but I needed the fex dead. Out marched the tankbustas and in one turn inflicted 3 wounds. It's like with termies, spamming them with hits is all and good, but ignoring the save is better. It also can take a lot fewer shots to bring him down.

I wouldn't take large tankbusta units, but a 5-6 man unit is about the cost of what I used to field, and has a lot more shots. In this version you have a greater efficiency, as instead of ablative wounds you have more shots. I'll take this version, even with glory hounds .

Orks really have a problem dealing with low armour save and high AV, tankbustas help alleviate this fact. They aren't the end all be all, but they definitely do tasks lootas shouldn't be doing, I don't think I will field an ork army without them.

I've got two more questions to consider for our takktica

How will orks deal with death company?  I've been thinking about it and i think death company could be even more deadly to orks than other armies.  In my eldar army i can use tanks to protect my troops from the DC until they get dropped out and waste the DC with melta/rending goodness.

Other horde armies like IG have small squad sizes that allow their troops to be wiped out/ run away in one round so he can shoot the assaulters in the next turn.  Ork mobs need to be big to be effective.

With orks, there is no such thing.  I just keep imagining my BA buddy hiding his DC behind a big stone wall (which we play with many of...) or area terrain that blocks LOS or even behind his tanks, then jump packing out and assaulting a slogging squad of 20 boyz.  Now given the speed of DC, if done right, won't allow me to shoot them really and he would likely have enough speed to assault in a way that avoids the PK nob.  First round he wipes out all the orks in their killzone no prob and i get no attacks, but orks are fearless (or close to it) and outnumber him so they stay.  Pile in, my turn, combat comes around and he attacks.  He would likely kill the rest of the unit w/o my nob getting attacks.  His turn, rinse and repeat with the next closest squad.

The only thing i can see doing is counter assaulting with more orks during your turn.  If you are planning on a shooty horde (like i am) then assaulting his DC with any shootas will keep them from shooting anyone else.  Now if you can manage to hide stormboyz around your shootas for a counter assault that would be good, but they might be needed to tie up his shooty marines (devestators come to mind...).

If anyone would like to suggest a tactic for killing these monsters I think it would be helpful to anyone with BAs in their meta.

Second question isn't one that deals with list building or battlefield manouvers, but more on the acquisition of models...

From what i've seen lootas are going to come in boxes of 4+mek (woohoo for making us use a crappy guy) how are you going to get your fix of ~24 lootas per army? Thats 5 boxes if you use the mek (i sure don't want to) or 6 if you are going to drop the meks.  Judging by the size of the models ive seen...they are about as large as termies which go for 50$ a box.  Now termies are 40 pts and lootas only xx, but i can still see GW sticking us with a 30$ price for 5 guys which we need a lot of.  I sure don't wanna spend 150+$ getting few hundred points of models, and im sure no one else does either.  So, how will you pick up those lootas if they are this expensive?

I was thinking picking up marine autocannons and sticking em on some boyz for cheap and easy.  Not sure if autocannons could 'count as' deffgunz though.

edit: I went ahead and got rid of some orky pt values i threw in there....

I'm using old skool Deathskull kustom kombi weapons as my lootas. Dunno if they're a cheaper option though to be honest.

As for dealing with death company, counter assault is the way forward here. Stormboys in a shooty horde are essential for this. Trukkers can do the same thing. I'm not too worried about the Death Company to be honest.

Death Co are a hard unit to deal with for the Boyz, no question. I was thinking about writing up a section on "problem units" for Orks to deal with, and if there ever was one, Death Co are it.

On the charge they will tear an Ork unit a new one, and then some. Their 3+ Saves and FNP mean they generally don't care about our shooting, which now looks like it will focus on just overloading saves instead of bypassing them.

There is one way to deal with these units of death that hit with high I and WS (or high rate of hits, like Death Co with Chaplain, Harlies, Stealers, etc) for any army: Multi-Charge them. These units are generally going to be small (due to cost) and their potency is due to high number of attacks per model.

The trick is to double or triple charge with 3 units. By forcing them to split attacks (since models in B2B have to attack the unit they're in B2B with in a multi assault), they can't clear kill zones and then things get to swing back, like Power Klaws that ignore their armor and FNP.

This works great for armies like infantry heavy IG for dealing with Harlies, BTW.

Now for Orks one of the things you can do is to set them up for the tarpit. Once deployed, you can set out a mob of Boyz and send them out for taking the charge. The trick is to set it up so the Nob is nicely buried, but the models are nice and spread out, making it hard for them to get a large chunk of a kill zone in CC, so even if they inflict a ton of casualties, they can't kill a lot of models because of the CC killzone rules.

After you lose the assault, you're fearless, stay in, and then pile in to give enough bodies to soak for the PK Nob to swing, since after the charge (when the Chaplains re-rolls and their S5 is gone) they're far less dangerous. Then you counter charge with as many squads as you can afford and hope the PK's do their duty and/or that you get some wounds past their 3+ and FNP saves.

You could always just give them a sacrifice unit, let it die, then drop a boomgun, tankbusta boys mob, or shokkattack gun onto their heads. S8 means no FNP, ap 3 means no armor save. Of course tankbustas need to have no other vehicles in LOS and a big mek with a shokkattack gun can do it but your rolling for strength.

My point is, the way to take out Death Co. is to remove one of their two saves. In shooting that means AP 3 guns or S8 weapons, in HTH that means powerweapons. I think with the new guns that are around it will be easier to deal with them than before. Not a cake walk to be sure, but easier.

Posted By LightningGus on 11/06/2007 4:02 PM

Second question isn't one that deals with list building or battlefield manouvers, but more on the acquisition of models...

From what i've seen lootas are going to come in boxes of 4+mek (woohoo for making us use a crappy guy) how are you going to get your fix of ~24 lootas per army? Thats 5 boxes if you use the mek (i sure don't want to) or 6 if you are going to drop the meks.  Judging by the size of the models ive seen...they are about as large as termies which go for 50$ a box.  Now termies are 40 pts and lootas only xx, but i can still see GW sticking us with a 30$ price for 5 guys which we need a lot of.  I sure don't wanna spend 150+$ getting few hundred points of models, and im sure no one else does either.  So, how will you pick up those lootas if they are this expensive?

I was thinking picking up marine autocannons and sticking em on some boyz for cheap and easy.  Not sure if autocannons could 'count as' deffgunz though.

edit: I went ahead and got rid of some orky pt values i threw in there....

  Personally, I have tons of Imperial Guard / Space Marine / Eldar heavy weapons in my bitz box.  I'll shop 'em up and glue the pieces together and give them to plastic Boyz.  That's pretty much what deffguns are anyway, right?

Hi,

I signed up just to ask a simple question in the taktika.

Why has nobody considered taking a cheap shooty Battlewagon to put the Loota's in?

Combining armour 14 at the front with the 48" range of the Deffguns seems common sense to me.

I'm not as tactically sound as some of the obviously tournament savvy players here but having a big tank in the backfield seems like a much more reliable way of deploying the Lootas than worrying about optimising cover and line of sight. Wouldn't having them armoured up and able to be put in the backfield with the best lines of sight cause even more fear in a mech eldar army?

Taking the option in a tourney means that if you are going to face some nasty Tau guns you can choose to mount a different unit in the Battlewagon, or just leave it empty.

Surely the points cost of a bare bones Battlewagon would be mitigated by using it as a shield?

Another bonus is that it prevents the unit being used and abused by the Fzorgle.

There are probably many, many more bonuses to using the cheap armour shield option of deploying the Loota's but with just these few it seems very much like a good option that has been ignored.

It's not a good idea because putting them in an AV14 open topped transport means that it has to stay still for them to fire (they have heavy weapons) and you're exposing them to the vulnerability that generally keeps them safe:

People take lots of long range anti-tank guns that will make a mockery of AV14. People don't have long range anti-horde weapons that can really hurt the Lootas, especially in cover.

Heck one of the best benefits to the Ork army, is that you can do a pure infantry horde of 120+ models even at 1500 points. That screws with so many lists that kit out on anti-tank guns to deal with the majority of powerful armies in play.

You can say that again: my first stab at converting one of my fun all foot lists (20 Kommandos, 60 Sluggas, 20 Shootas, 40 Grots and a Lobba battery) to the new Codex stats and points costs dropped it from 1500 points to 1270! I am down 3 Rokkit Launchas and a Big Shoota, but have 230 points to buy something to make up for it...

johno

I find it highly ironic that Tankbustas are only good against nids, because they have no vehicles!

2x warphead lead foot slogging orks are pretty damn scary. the warpheads allows you to do so many things. they are anti-tank, anti meq, can teleport your boys, call the waggggghhhh, and can hold their own in close combat.

 

The one thing that's really troubling me about the Orks is their ability to take out AV14 vehicles. With AV13 enough Rokkits or even Lootas in a pinch should be able to reliably take 'em out, but AV14 is a different story.

Obviously Lootas can't help against AV14 and Considering Rokkits only have a 24" range it is kind of hard to get too many shots against a particular vehicle in any given turn without getting way too close. I'm also not a fan of relying on CC attacks to take down enemy vehicles because:

• A) Vehicles can usually move far enough to make it difficult for infantry to even reach them, and
• B) Even if you can reach them (like with DethKoptas or Stormboyz Nobs) if you need a '6' to hit something and another '6' to glance it, your chances are really, really slim of taking that vehicle out and if you fail your squad is usually left hanging out to dry in the opponent's next shooting phase.

 

But there really are no good options here.

• The Boomgun and Shokk Attack guns are both Ordnance, which as anyone who has played with or against IG knows, Ordnance is very, very iffy against vehicles in 4th edition (since you scatter 2/3 of the time and if the hole scatters off the vehicle your shot is not going to do anything).
• Kannons in Big Gunz batteries are only S8 (and you still need to roll 'to hit' on a 5+).
• Zzap guns are a big mystery the way the rules are written.
• Do you roll for one Strength for the whole battery? If so, and you roll and '11' or '12' do you only lose one Gretchin crew, or one for each weapon? When do you roll for the Strength of the battery, before or after selecting a target?
• And actually, no matter what the answer those Zzap questions the fact that Big Gunz batteries are only 36" range, move or shoot, with a BS of 2 and are extremely suceptible to morale checks makes them an iffy choice at best.

 

So what else does that leave us with?

• S10 Zzap powers on a wierdboy? You only have a 1 in 6 chance of even getting that power each turn and you'd still need to roll a 5+ to hit.
• Kustom Mega Blastas on Meks or Kans/Dreds? Still only S8 and needing a 5+ to hit.
• Zzap guns and Rokkits on a Battlewagon? still very, very unreliable (all need 5+ to hit, Rokkits need a '6' to glance and the Zzap gun is still completely random).

 

Am I missing anything here? I don't think so. It seems that GW has decided to make Orks' achilles heel AV14 vehicles. Because of the Tankbustas +1 Penetration in the old codex AV14 besides the Monolith was do-able, but now?

It seems the best viable option is just to swamp the thing with tons of Rokkits or charge with multiple powerklaws and hope to get lucky.

I fear any marine player crazy enough to bring mutiple Crusaders in their army is just going to work over any Ork players they run into.

 

 

 

yak, Grots and anything they man are BS3 now.

As for the Shokk Attack Gun and other Ordnance, I really don't think the fact that they're Ordnance detracts from their AT capabilities. In any other army sure, but we're talking about Orks here. They only hit 1/3 of the time with normal weapons, so Ordnance is really a good thing--you have the same chance to "hit", and even when you "miss," there's still a chance you'll roll low for scatter and still hit.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/07/2007 8:07 PM
yak, Grots and anything they man are BS3 now.

As for the Shokk Attack Gun and other Ordnance, I really don't think the fact that they're Ordnance detracts from their AT capabilities. In any other army sure, but we're talking about Orks here. They only hit 1/3 of the time with normal weapons, so Ordnance is really a good thing--you have the same chance to "hit", and even when you "miss," there's still a chance you'll roll low for scatter and still hit.

Oh, that is good news. I didn't notice that at all (grots being BS3). I might just try out a battery of Zzap guns with ammo runts.

As for Ordnance we have the S8 of the Boomgun, which is still going to struggle with AV14 regardless of whether you hit or not.

Then you have the Zzap gun which because its greatest strength (AP2) is worthless against vehicles, you would really be wasting a weapon that will devestate most any infantry (unless Strength lower than 5 is rolled) to fire at a vehicle that you're only going to have a chance to affect if you roll really lucky with your Strength roll (9+, not counting 5,5).

 

 

What do ammo runts do?

At STR 2d6, the average strength of a Zap gun is still 7. If you're counting on
Zzap gun to be a reliable source of STR 8+ fire you're going to want at least
two full crews. (for the two guns to fire better than average)

So the reason you're taking Zzap guns isn't to blow up high AV vehicles, but
to get the secondary effect (crew shaken) on glancing shots.

Yep, I noticed that early on. Armour save of 2+ and AV14 vehicles seem to be an Achilles heel of orks. What is the answer for terminators? CC or a lot of shots.

AV14 has few sure things. Almost everything tops out at 8 or is random. So you are left with the iffy zap guns, weirdboyz, PK nobs and the STR 9 Wreckin' Ball that hits any unengaged unit within 2" of the ball at the beginning of assault on a 4+.

And lastly, tankbustas with tankbusta bombs, which are now only on tankbustas along with the Str 10 Tankhammer.

It really seems the only "reliable" high str attacks are again in CC, whether from a vehicle or inf.

Ammo runts allow a reroll.

Ammo runts let you reroll your to hit roll. Ammo runts, great idea, horrible execution. They work for big guns but thats it. In the old codex any character could take them (up to three) and any model could use them as long as they were in BTB with that model. Now only the model that purchased the ammorunt can use it, and any model that could really bennifit from them (I.E. meks with KMBs) they seem to not be able to take them. Too bad.

Anyway, I too saw the lack of AV14 power punch, but I'm wondering about the Deff Rolla. It causes D6 S10 hits on any unit it tankshocks. You can now tankshock vehicles with a lower AV value as your front armor. The wording is funky for the Deff Rolla. You cause hits, no to hit rolls are needed. That means auto hitting skimmers, or anything else regardless of how far it moved.

The question is what is the AP of the attack. It doesn't say. Weapons with an AP of (-) can only cause glancing hits. But the AP of the deff rolla isn't (-), its just not listed at all. I wonder how that works against models as well. I guess termies will still get their 2+ save.

Of course this doesn't help against the monolith or Landraider, and its only an effective 13" range, but it would be fun.

A unit of tankbustas can get two tankbusting hammers Those are S10 and your going to get 6 attacks with them on the charge. Thats enough attacks to get shots in against skimmers. Of course getting the boys close enough to hit the vehicle is the trick. And of course tankbusta bombs are the same as before.

Mathhammer time... woot!!!

Lets just look at a full unit of tankbustas with two hammers and three bombsquigs against a landraider. Lets assume the landraider only moved 6" so it could fire all of its guns.

Shooting

Rokkits - 12/1 shots, 4/1 hits, 1/6 glances, 1/6 destroyed = 1/9
Bomb squigs - 3/1 shots, 5/6 hits, 1/6 glances, 1/6 destroyed, = 5/72

for a total of 13/72 or 18 percent chance of killing it in one round of shooting.

Charging -

Boys with bombs - 13/1 attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 damage result = 13/4

of those 13/4, 1/3 will glance, 1/6 destroy = 13/72
of those 13/4, 2/3 will pen, 1/2 will destoy = 26/24 for a total of 13/72 + 26/24 = 182/144 = 91/72

Boys with hammers - 6/1 attacks, 1/2 hit, 1/2 damage result = 6/4

of those 6/4, 1/3 will glance, 1/6 will destroy = 6/72
of those 6/4, 2/3 will pen, 1/2 will destroy = 12/24 for a total of 6/72 + 12/24 = 84/144 = 42/72

For a grand assault total of 133/72

So between shooting and assaulting we have a 13/72 + 133/72 = 146/72= 2.02

So the boys have a 202% chance of killing a landraider if a full squad shoots and assaults it in one turn and that landraider only moved 6" that turn. Had it moved the full 12" it would have been 79.5% chance of killing it in one turn.

Wow, thats a whole lot of potentially worthless information. But I know that if I didn't get it out of my head I wouldn't have been able to sleep tonight. Thanks for listening to my rambling, and have a great evening.

Um, you should never arrive at a greater than 100% (or even exactly 100%) chance to destroy a vehicle. What you've calculated is actually the average number of Land Raiders such a squad would destroy per turn, were they allowed to direct their attacks at a unit of Land Raiders equal in size to the number of attacks they put out.