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I thought we settled in YMDC that you choose either the 2+ for poisoned attacks or the power weapon effect...

While I agree with you on most of your very long review of the new dex, i have to say that I disagree strongly with your evaluation of the Heavy support section.
* The heavy support section is by far the weakest section of the entire codex. There are no units that we simply can't live without and many units that are just plain aweful. You could very easily make a list without ANY heavies and still be very competetive.

Average

* Killer kans. If there was an option for two shooty weapons they would be as good as eldar walkers. Sadly with the current environment CC is the last place you want your dreadnaughts, hidden powerfist and just about any tyranid unit will take them out right quick

* Big Guns primarily Kannons. In any other codex Kannon would be laughed at, but in our codex they provide something that is rather scarce. Long range anti- tank/anti dakkafex. Add that to the fact that a fully kitted out kannon unit comes in under 100 points, and with 3 rerolls and BS 3 it is by far the most accurate unit in the codex. Sure it takes a heavy slot but none of the other heavies are worth taking anyway. I have taken them in many of the test games I have played and have never wished that I had spent those points on something else.

Questionable

* Battlewagon. Sure it's our only chance of getting anything tank like into our list, but it is way to expensive to be used effeciently. Kitted out as a tank it cost far more then Predators or Leman Russes that it is obviously inferior too. As a transport trucks are much better and looted wagons cost about 1/3 the points.

* Looted Wagon Disposable one shot ordanace for about the cost of a pred anialator sans sponsons (horrible idea) Cheap transport to transport burna's or tank busta's or block line of sight to valuable trucks (almost thinkable)

Bad.

Defdread CC dread with initiative 2 (Bad) The list of things you would want to charge this into is very small. the list of units that will smack it around if it charges very long.

Flash Gits. By far the worst entry in the codex. Take them only in friendly games versus less skilled oponents that need a boost of self confidence. And take Badruk while your at it. At the cost of a warboss you get a 2 wound model that has an 87% chance to wound himself when he shoots.

oh man, you guys are really depressing. I'M building Flash Gitz anyway. the concept is just too cool.

Anung Un Rama wrote:oh man, you guys are really depressing. I'M building Flash Gitz anyway. the concept is just too cool.

I'm with you there!

Too much fun to pass up, great modeling opportunities and should be fun to play as well...

I've gotta disagree on the negative assessment of the deffrolla option for transport battlewagons. If your BW is a transport you're going to want something to re-roll terrain tests, so really it's only a loota's difference of points between a rolla and a ram. And if you are transporting you should be approaching within 12 inches or so of the enemy. So if you're already there why not yell Waagh, cackle and get 1d6 S10 hits? It seems more damage than you'd do with 3 more big shootas or a zzap gun, and you wouldn't be firing those on the way in anyhow. Sure, for a tourney army I can see argument that your tranport BW should be staying out of sight for VP denial and quarter grabbing if it survives dropping off its cargo. But if an Ork player did that in a friendly game they'd I'd buy them an Eldar Codex because they are certainly acting like a panzee.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Equipping the Battlewagons

-Deff Rolla: Some people go on and on about this upgrade and I can’t honestly see why.

The extra S10 hits are just too nasty. This also keeps a transporter battlewagon something worth shooting at even after it has delivered payload.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
-Red Paint Job: ...For ANY ‘Wagon, this is an almost mandatory upgrade for me.

Of less intrerest than you suggested. You are moving 7 then you are moving faster than 6, no shooting the big gun. I would keep this advantage for dedicated Evil Sunz lists.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
-Grot Riggers: More expensive this time around and not as good as they were before.

Take grot riggers on every battlewagon. If you can restore immobilised results you can stop a second immobilised destroying the killkannon cut enemy victory points gains and enable the vehicle to move to where it can claim locations.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
-Lobba: One must ask why you’d put this pretty crappy weapon on a Battlewagon. It’s only “good” in artillery because you can fire it indirectly at enemy troops, in groups of 3 for a barrage. And they somehow thought it was good enough to be more expensive than the Kannon upgrade. Avoid this bad idea like the plague.

Lobba is good for a transport wagon. Its a defensive weapon with a blast template. Ork lobbas can be very useful, but rwather than waste an HS slot on them add one to a battlewagon instead.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
-Big Shootas: You can have up to 4 of these things on the Wagon... I don’t see this as a competitive option, other than being the absolute cheapest “gun” you can throw on a Transport Wagon to prevent “Weapon Destroyed” from becoming “Immobilized”.

I would take four on a transport. Its only 20pts for 12 shots. Nothing wrong with that. You get decent range too. Something you will be short of.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Recommended Configurations!

Since the Codex did such a terrible job of giving three example configurations of a Battlewagon, I figured I’d put down my three favorite configs:

1.) Main Battle Tank – 185 Points
Killkannon, ‘Ard Case, Red Paint Job, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates

This is a perfect looted Russ, just add big shootas to taste.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
2.) Transport ‘Wagon - 120 Points
Red Paint Job, Armor Plates, Big Shoota, Reinforced Ram

Nah. Use: Death rolla, 4 big shootas or lobba for versatility. Grot riggers armour plates and maybe red paint if it fits the army theme.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
3.) Trukk Screener: 110 Points
Red Paint Job, Armor Plates

Wated role. Just use the same tank for transporting

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Transporting...
3.) Nobz & MegaNobz – These guys make it exceptionally tempting to take a Battlewagon Transport because they can both take one as a dedicated transport that doesn’t use up a heavy slot! ...First off, if you take a Battlewagon as a dedicated transport, it’s not a scoring unit, and as you will find out they’re an expensive proposition no matter how you look at it, and they don’t bring a whole lot of firepower to the table either to make them worth their cost.

I disagree on dedicated transport battlewagons. A minimum nobz mob is reasonably cheap can be taken as an excuse to field an extra Av14 vehicle in a vehicle heavy army. Sure the vehicle isnt scoring, but the nobz are. You will have just enough to fire twin linked shootas through the 'ard case (normally ommitted from a tranport ). A waste unless you are putting your strength in Av anyway. But if you have three 'looted russ' or some such the extra battlewagon(s) in Elites will come in very handy. The more Av14 the better.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Deff Dread
Utility: Poor*

It’s such a shame to see that the Dread got no love going from the Old Codex to the new one. He’s gotten an extra attack, but his gun options went through the roof! And to be blatantly honest, he pales in comparison to the little brother the Killa Kanz.

As you later mentioned in passing a dred can make a good troops option. Its an extra Av12 taken as troops and can be a good cheap option. If you get cheapguns - which is a better choice in my opinion anyway you can have a dreadnought for only 85pts, more if you add plates. 100pts tops. Its not a crap deal by any stretch. Kasns are better, much better, but you cant have kans as troops. Big Meks are common enough. I firmly intend to try out a troops dred (bought the Dred Mob box this week).

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
-Skorcha: Well it’s as cheap as the Big Shoota, but you have to get close to use it. I just don’t like Heavy Flamer options on Dreads unless they’re going in a Drop Pod, and since Orks don’t get Drop Pods, I don’t like it on the Deff Dread. This is one upgrade that should be avoided at all costs.

You dont aim with a skorcha so Bs2v is no problem, and you want to get in close anyway. With burnas being removed from troops template weapons are harder to come by.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
-Extra DCCW: Same cost as the Kustom Mega Blasta, but only effective in CC. It gives you a boatload of attacks if you take two, which at S10, I3, and ignoring armor saves, is pretty good. Still it’s expensive and only useful if you make it to assault and if you’re going to spend that many points on the dread, the better option is potentially the KMB. Pretty good to go all assault in a Cityfight game though.

I wouldnt bother with extra claws particularly in cityfight (where the skorcha would be ideal). Once your dred gets in combat hew should be able to deal with whatever is in front of him. Those opponents that are a threat to the drede will destroy it extra attacks or no.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Equipping the Kanz
-Kustom Mega Blasta: For 5 points more than a Rokkit, you get what amounts to the same thing with AP2. Given that Orks have little to no good ranged armor ignoring weapons, and the fact that the KMB is now S8, you get all the goodness of the Rokkit with the ability to knock some 2+ Save units out too. Granted it’s 5 points more per Kan to upgrade, but you have to ask yourself, is it worth 5 Points to go from AP3 to AP2? I feel it is, but it’s not going to be the same for everyone depending on how they build their list. Answer that question for yourself and you will know how to arm your Kanz.

Give two kans blastas and thethird kan a big shoota and armour plates. The plated kan is placed in front of the other two and absorbs the squadrons fire. Expect it to spend most of the battle stunned, excpet perhapos turn one, when it will be the only kan in range.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Extra Advice
Kanz are best fielded in squadrons. Like unit sizes even numbers are better than odd because of the scoring unit rules. Because of this always try to maximize the use of your FOC slots. If you’re going to take 6 Kanz, take 3 units of 2 if you can help it. Likewise, if you’re going to field 3 Kanz, take a unit of two and a unit of one.

Squadron kans in threes only. Use squadron rules to force the enemy to shoot one kan until destroyed before being allowed to fire on the next kan. The ones behind are the ones with better guns.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
(Big Gunz)
-Lobbas: The second cheapest option is not terrible for what it costs, but it doesn’t do a whole lot. It can fire indirectly, so you negate the survivability and LD problems of the unit, but all you’re looking at is 1 to 3 S5 AP5 small blast templates firing as a barrage. It does cause pinning, but it’s still not all that great.

Lobbas are good, especially if facing Geq without a killkannon. no blast templates = no reason not to bunch up. You lose too much of an advantasge not taking blat weapons and they are in short supply with orks. Lobbas are the only ones with range needed. If you have an HS slot spare they can be useful. However you can use a battlewagon transport to mount one if you dont.

Lobbas also seem like they can play a very valuable role for a footslogga or stormboy horde. Two or three for your otherwise empty heavy support slots will give you scoring units to hold down your side of the board while everyone charges (and the lootas get shot). More importantly, in most missions heavies deploy first, so you force your opponent to show his hand instead of letting him react to your placement of key units. Knowing where that Russ or Dev squad will be before you start deploying the boyz can be priceless. Any kills they actually get during the game are just bonus.

Orlanth: you need to read the bit on Red Paint Job again.

The text clearly says that there are no penalties for moving the extra inch, and gives the example of moving 13 inches but counting as moving 12 inches.

So, given the low cost, it is pretty much a "must have" on any Ork vehicle that plans to move during the game.

johno

I gotta disagree with your assessment on Big Gunz as well. I wrote up why, but I think this post on Da Waaagh sums it up better:

Zak Petrak wrote:

Most reviewers rate the new Big Gunz as poor or not competitive. Well, I think they have some at least semi-competitive uses for certain army lists.

Undisputed are the uses for Lobbas: Hide them behind cover and use them as cheap artillery and to occupy table quarters. They might even kill something from time to time.

Now Kannons and the new Zzaps generally get poor ratings. But if you keep them cheap and combine them with ammo runts, they bring a lot of firepower to the table.

A Kannon with an ammo runt costs only 23 points. It hits with 75% in the first turn and 50% in all following turns. So in the first two turns you get 125% expected hits. That's roughly the same as a beakie with rocket launcher does (2 * 66%).

A battery of 3 Kannons goes for 69 points and has, in the first two turns, the same firepower a Dev squad with three rocket launchers for 135 points. Of course, the Beakies are much more resilient. But in my experience with the new Codex, your ennemy has to shoot your Trukks and crew in the first two turns or else...

3 Kannons with 3 ammo runts bring more fire power to the table than 3 Killa Kanz which cost twice as much. And I would argue that the Kanz aren't double as resilient: If the ennemy focuses his attention on them, they drop fast.

If you have a footslogging horde with heavy support slots to spare, say if you wan't to deny your opponent the use of all his shiny lascannons, there's an even better setup: Take 2 or 3 seperate units with 1 Kannon and 3 ammo runts each. They have the same firepower as a Beakie with a rocket launcher for the first four turns and they are really not worth to shoot at.

The same is basicly true for Zzap Guns. They bring much needed AP 2 firepower to an ork army. Combined with ammo runts you get a frightening battery for 99 points (maybe to much of a target) or better 3 batteries of 1 Zzap with three runts each.

I consider them as much more cost effective than the expensive Kanz with mega-blastas, meks with mega-blastas (they won't hit barn doors) or even the SAG (though it's certainly more fun).

From my long experience with Pie Plates against small unit opponents I would also argue that Kannons or Zzaps with ammo runts are more effective than killkannons and boomguns.

Maybe it's just because I was an artilleryman, but I really think there are some competitive uses for Big Gunz in a list with heavy support slots to spare.

Thoughts and comments?

Also, was there an account wipe here or something? Its probably been a good 2 to 4 years since I've posted on this forum, but I'm relatively sure of my username, password, email address etc. and none of them got me into my old account.

I agree with that big gun assessment, especially for Kannons. Their bang for the points is fantastic, it's like taking a min-max unit that can be about as minimized as a unit can get. And Heavy Support isn't exactly overflowing with Stormboy type units that demand 3 slots filled.



What I don't get is the gushing over Shoota Boyz. Typical of the abstract mathhammer fashion I'm getting dished up pap like "30 Shoota Boyz beats X points of so-and-so, therefore they will rule the Tournament metagame." Who cares if Dire Avengers or Marines don't win out in this equal points showdown. You're bloody joking if you think that a skilled opponent with access to Eldar/Marine speed and firepower will pit his forces in fair matchups with your 6" slogging, large footprint Shoota Boyz.

As someone who dicks around with foot-slogging Dire Avengers for fun, and also plays Necrons with access to Immortals, my experience is that the 6" difference in range is more like a mile, to borrow VB's term of expression.

18" Assault is quite an irritating firing range on the tabletop for some reason. BS2 is crud. They're slow, and might as well be Sluggas if they opt to WAAAGH! to make combat.

VB is doing a nice job with this takktica here, but to me you can only go so far with this individual unit ratings thing. Shootas seem look good on paper to some but to me they seem the unit least likely to gel within an Ork army with any other combination available in this Codex, and even with their own options.

What good are Shootas when you're firing the Rokkits within the unit at hard targets? What good are Shootas when you're hitting CC turn 2? What good are Shootas when WAAAGH!ing forward?

Which brings me to my main point. If you're going to go for more ground pounders and less trukks (and I think this option is being underrated in favour of the "Oooh Shiny!" Ramshackle rule), you're crazy not to take Ghazgkull and Zogwart. Zogwart is a no-brainer, Eldrad style, (thanks Phil) and Ghaz is on Avatar goodness levels. With the WAAAGH! overload these two bring, and rapidity of the boyz moving up the field, I'd rather have the 2CCW of the Sluggas.

Big Gunz:

I stand by my rating of Poor on these guys because of the fact that they're just not bringing a whole lot to the table that you can't get elsewhere in the list with more durability and more effectiveness.

Zaap Guns for instance are better off for their AP2 than they are for their supposed Tank Busting ability. 2D6 STR and that's it? I'm sorry but it isn't going to help our AV14 problems. For AP2 Firepower, it's at a maximum 9 shots at BS3, and it gets expensive, and it's fragile, and it's static. If you want decent BS3 AP2 shots, buy Killa Kanz with Kustom Mega Blastas.

Kannons don't do a whole lot and you can be filling your army with Rokkits and Lootas to deal with any AV10-13 poblems. And yes they're cheap, but points get tight when making competitive Ork lists, heck they get tight making even semi-competitive lists.

There are simply better options here, especially in Kanz, who do cost more, but bring the same fire power, move and fire, have NO LD issues, are far more durable to any kind of shooting, and can assault.

Why would I ever bother with the Big Gunz?

@Shootas:

Shootas are great not so much because "X Points of Shootas Beats X Points of Marines", that's true, but that's not the point.

The point is that having a horde footslogger army automatically throws you into the "competitive" army type because most lists can't reliably deal with a ton of models on the table. Now the problem with this in the old Ork list was that you really had to see CC in order to be effective.

In most games, Shoota Boyz should be engaging a target on Turn 2 with their Shootas. And you can bring a TON of shots to the table, and one thing I've learned in the amount of playtesting I've done is that when you can throw a ton of dice at something, it gets the job done. I've wiped squads off the board with these guys. They can engage the enemy early in the game, while advancing under the threat that they will probably beat whatever target they have to charge in CC as well (thank you PK Nob!).

Sluggas on the other hand are stuck legging it and legging it, not doing anything if the enemy can move away from them to deny assault (many top tier armies can do this) and their trade off, an extra attack in CC, isn't all that great since if you do make combat, you probably are barely going to do so if you're playing against someone good. So you won't get a ton of models in the Killzone, which makes it hard to get a good charge off. Now if you want lots of attack Orks in CC, then Trukk Mobz or Storm Boyz get that job done. But for footsloggers, Shootas give you everything Sluggas do, while at the same time giving you more options in terms of engaging the enemy sooner, while doing substantial damage at the same time.

I like the lobbas, not for the least reason all it cost me was a blister of grots with green stuff bombs made for em and a tank track that came with the box. Cut it in half, add some green stuff slings to the end, and a barrel of fuel and you got a giant slingshot lobba. In the games I have used them they were generally worth the 50 points they cost, and in one game vs nids where he screened his steelers with unending carnifex walls, they were some of the only things that hit them before they assaulted. Killed about 8 steelers in that game, for a 50 point unit that was awesome. I dont think big guns can count for table quarters though, arent they artilery, and thus cant contest a quarter?

I see the point you are trying to make with Shootas, but I still don't agree. Sluggas have the same Heavy Weapon options. If you load out with your 30 man squad/s with rokkits, to deal with the Av10-13 problems, then

A) Sluggas and Shootas are the same when shooting at these things, fexes, w/e with rokkits. Bar Av10, where you might get an extra glance or who from the Shootas, depending on range.

B) Sluggas and Shootas are the same when Waaaghing forward.

C) Sluggas and Shootas both can't fire when charging into an engaged enemy unit.

Sluggas are superior in combat, while Shootas can spit out a bit of flak firepower. Now the way I see it, Trukk boyz/Storm Boyz are a nice way of getting a lot of a attack Orks in CC, and fast, but if the aim is a horde footslogger army to be competitive, you'll still probably need your 6pt Boyz to get up the field and get stuck in to seal the deal. And points A, B, and C make Sluggas better deal sealers in turns 4-6, when they hit combat, for my money.

With Ghazgkull, Sluggas can cover 24" of open ground (and could be tricky and time their fleet move over DT), and get 2 rounds of rokkit shooting, in 3 turns. Depending on how the game unfolds I'd say they'd hit combat turn 4 at the latest. You're looking at 4-8 combat rounds in a 6 turn game, which is more than enough to make the extra CC attack per boy more worthwhile over maybe two good rounds of flak firepower from Shoota Boyz.

It'll definitely be interesting times ahead a the new Orks start to play out on the tabletop, that's for sure!

I think you're going to find times where you wish you had sluggas, and times where you wish you had shootas.

I just happen to think the times you'll want shootas will be slightly more. It gives you options that the sluggas do not. With sluggas you simply move forward and hope to get to hth. With shootas you've at least got the option of a 24" threat range to whittle down a unit below scoring.

But I can definitely see someone fielding a competitive list of sluggas, particularly with ghazkul and a warphead, hoping for multiple fleets in a game.

I agree with Mauleed, the main advantage to using shootas is that there are things out there that will reliably clear their killzone against us, and the shootas give us the ability to go shooty should we encounter these.

A unit of just six harlequins, used well, can reliably take on a mob of 30 boyz and clear their killzone turn after turn. Slugga boyz have very little recourse against this. Shoota boyz just shoot the clowns.

Although, if you're using snikrot and dethkoptas to tie up enemy shooting early in the game, shoota boyz may end up left with little to do.

Redbeard wrote:
A unit of just six harlequins, used well, can reliably take on a mob of 30 boyz and clear their killzone turn after turn. Slugga boyz have very little recourse against this. Shoota boyz just shoot the clowns.

I can see them doing that on the charge if they put just 1 or 2 in base contact and the rest behind those ones , but I can't see how they will still achive kill zone clearance when the other 21+ orks pile in, how do you kill that many orks in the second round of combat?

And why can't the sluggas shoot as well - they do have the sluggas and rokkits as well, they may not be as good, but against 6 t3 models they don't need to do much to seriuosly the affect any subsequent CC. 26 sluggas and 3 rokkits should take out 2 or 3 harlies which is substantial for such a small unit. The extra range of the shootas is only slightly useful here due to the spotting roll.

puree wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
A unit of just six harlequins, used well, can reliably take on a mob of 30 boyz and clear their killzone turn after turn. Slugga boyz have very little recourse against this. Shoota boyz just shoot the clowns.

I can see them doing that on the charge if they put just 1 or 2 in base contact and the rest behind those ones , but I can't see how they will still achive kill zone clearance when the other 21+ orks pile in, how do you kill that many orks in the second round of combat?

You don't stick around for the second round. If the harlequins clear their kill zone, that means that there is a good 3 inches between them and the orks. The average hit&run is over nine inches. Sure, the orks can consolidate three, and then move and charge, but I doubt they're going to get their full weight into the fight if they have to chase after the harlequins who hit&run away - especially if the harlies went through some terrain during their hit&run move. Yeah, if the harlequins pile in, and the the orks pile in, then all 20 surviving orks are going to beat the crap out of the clowns. But if the harlequins are smart and force the orks to chase them, that's going to be a lot less orks who get to fight that second round, and the harlequins can still expect to drop six before the orks swing.

And why can't the sluggas shoot as well

Well, part of it is the spotting roll, and more of it is how many sluggas do you think you'll actually get within 12" of the harlequins?

I dunno... I'm not saying it's impossible to kill the harlies, or that the clowns will automatically win. But, I've seen what they do to lightly armoured opponents. Last year, during the adepticon championship, I played against Brian Carlson's kroot mercenary army. Sure, kroot are T3 instead of T4 like the orks, but otherwise, pretty similar, and my unit of six harlequins literally killed half his army due to well-timed hit&run moves, repeat charges, and sweeping advances... The orks are better able to withstand being swept, but if I pull off a charge for 9, kill six more when you charge me after I'd hit&run, and then run again and charge you for another 9, you're down to six boyz at that point. Is that a risk you want to take? I'd rather not assault them at all and try to gun them down with a whole lot more shoota shots.

Redbeard wrote:

puree wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
A unit of just six harlequins, used well, can reliably take on a mob of 30 boyz and clear their killzone turn after turn. Slugga boyz have very little recourse against this. Shoota boyz just shoot the clowns.

I can see them doing that on the charge if they put just 1 or 2 in base contact and the rest behind those ones , but I can't see how they will still achive kill zone clearance when the other 21+ orks pile in, how do you kill that many orks in the second round of combat?

You don't stick around for the second round. If the harlequins clear their kill zone, that means that there is a good 3 inches between them and the orks. The average hit&run is over nine inches.

oops - forgot about the hit and run.

If there's 12 inches between harlies and orks, what's to prevent orks from moving 6" closer and unloading on them?

I don't buy that as a solution unless you're playing with lots and lots of terrain.

My problem in the Sluggas vs. Shootas debate is that why bother with footslogging Sluggas when Storm Boyz do the exact same job with far more reliability?

Though if the rumors in 5th Edition come true where Forced March is a reality then the best Ork armies will be nothing but hordes and hordes of Slugga Boyz in 30 Boy Mobz.

yeah, a stormboy horde of 3 units of 20 (backed up by footslogging shoota boyz) is very appealing - other than the cost of all those jump packs! Slugga boyz do seem to be better in either trukks or with jump packs, but as you say, a Forced March rule could change all that (it would also change a whole lot of other armies, especially nids)

i've read this and have taken into account whats good and what's not but i'm still stumped on a ork codex list it would be much appreciated on how to make an effective shooty (yes, i said it) ork army.

Brilliant! thanks for this, it'll help loads as i've just started orks

orkyboss30000 wrote:i've read this and have taken into account whats good and what's not but i'm still stumped on a ork codex list it would be much appreciated on how to make an effective shooty (yes, i said it) ork army.

You'd best be served by looking at some of the army lists I (and others) have posted.

Shooty bits are filled in by two unit selections: Shootas (with PK Nobz), and Lootas.

Shootas size and armerment is generally up for debate. I'm now enjoying 30 Boy Mobz w/ 3 rokkits and PK Nob w/ Bosspole. The Nobz equipment should stay the same, always, the units equipment you can change out.

Lootas, I like in 2 units of 12 or 14. I avoid taking 3 Units, it's generally too many to deploy in terrain, or with a good amount of LOS reliably in a game.

That's for the effective "all infantry" style Ork army, which I feel is the strongest style you can make (since anything with an AV value is inherently fragile).

You could make some shooty lists with Kanz in them, but generally I'm not liking Tankbustas or Flash Gitz much for making something that's competitive and shooty. Battlewagons with Killkannonz on them also constitute as shooty too.

What exactly were you looking for help on?

LightningGus wrote:I've got two more questions to consider for our takktica

How will orks deal with death company?  I've been thinking about it and i think death company could be even more deadly to orks than other armies.  In my eldar army i can use tanks to protect my troops from the DC until they get dropped out and waste the DC with melta/rending goodness.

Other horde armies like IG have small squad sizes that allow their troops to be wiped out/ run away in one round so he can shoot the assaulters in the next turn.  Ork mobs need to be big to be effective.

With orks, there is no such thing.  I just keep imagining my BA buddy hiding his DC behind a big stone wall (which we play with many of...) or area terrain that blocks LOS or even behind his tanks, then jump packing out and assaulting a slogging squad of 20 boyz.  Now given the speed of DC, if done right, won't allow me to shoot them really and he would likely have enough speed to assault in a way that avoids the PK nob.  First round he wipes out all the orks in their killzone no prob and i get no attacks, but orks are fearless (or close to it) and outnumber him so they stay.  Pile in, my turn, combat comes around and he attacks.  He would likely kill the rest of the unit w/o my nob getting attacks.  His turn, rinse and repeat with the next closest squad.

The only thing i can see doing is counter assaulting with more orks during your turn.  If you are planning on a shooty horde (like i am) then assaulting his DC with any shootas will keep them from shooting anyone else.  Now if you can manage to hide stormboyz around your shootas for a counter assault that would be good, but they might be needed to tie up his shooty marines (devestators come to mind...).

If anyone would like to suggest a tactic for killing these monsters I think it would be helpful to anyone with BAs in their meta.

Second question isn't one that deals with list building or battlefield manouvers, but more on the acquisition of models...

From what i've seen lootas are going to come in boxes of 4+mek (woohoo for making us use a crappy guy) how are you going to get your fix of ~24 lootas per army? Thats 5 boxes if you use the mek (i sure don't want to) or 6 if you are going to drop the meks.  Judging by the size of the models ive seen...they are about as large as termies which go for 50$ a box.  Now termies are 40 pts and lootas only xx, but i can still see GW sticking us with a 30$ price for 5 guys which we need a lot of.  I sure don't wanna spend 150+$ getting few hundred points of models, and im sure no one else does either.  So, how will you pick up those lootas if they are this expensive?

I was thinking picking up marine autocannons and sticking em on some boyz for cheap and easy.  Not sure if autocannons could 'count as' deffgunz though.

edit: I went ahead and got rid of some orky pt values i threw in there....

Really funny thing is that this exact same scenario happened to me in a 1500pt game last night.
I admit i made a couple of errors, but basically he had a building in his deployment zon right in the middle, which he filled with 2 squads of devestators and placed behind his death company.

I made short work of everything in close combat, despite being shot at from every possible angle most turns.

I just could not get to his death company, as when i got close to them with the tatters i had left, he made short work of me and crossed the field taking out my last ordanance.

Well played game from both players, but BA and Death company will be the bain of the orks, that is for sure.

Some observations on new orks

Lootas, they rock, I have taken 45 max units and have had great great luck with them, even when then they die.

The biggest thing about them is 48" range, and elites status.

Elite status allowed them to set up after most other units, specifically Marine dev's and light tanks and troop transports. This gives great advantage when picking prime fire lanes. Also being 48" allows great deal of harbor from Heavy bolter fire.

They are good supreme at setting the pace of the game. Against static marines, I went after Devs and severely limited their long range output. The ability to also target transports, and almost guarantee 3 immobile if not out right destroyed/forced disembarkation.

They were weak to most IG ordinance, but what isn't. But marines using Droppods can put a hurt on them, and 2 games, they were wiped out by them , but for the most part they get their dakka on deep strikes buy them a turn or two.


HQ bike warboss, they what everyone here says....but since hes alone, I had to somewhat careful with him, and always end up feeling that he could have done more if I took the risk.

SAG, I am sure its great, but all 4 games, by it was two unreliable, i seem to roll lots of doubles.


Fast

Storm boys, do what they do, but played most good players, but wiped them out with either scatter laser or 3-4 tornados, but wiped them out.

Troops

Sluggas, dont knwo dont run em
Shootas, foot slogged for only 2 games befoer i dropped the, for min units to just meet requirements. I just could not keep them alive. Heavy bolter, scatter lasers, IG pieplates. 30 or not, KFF or not they just cant make it anywhere. Mobile marines on bikes and speeders can wip eout enough to either make em break, combat ineffective or out right wipe them out.

Tanks, I only ran 3 battle wagons, and its hard ot keep them alive, but good, they are going to be shot at anyways, and also due to their range it forces them to move turn 1, which provided much needed cover for bike boss and storm boys. Armor 14 and having 3 helps, and I would take them again and again, given that other in heavy arent as effective.



Few observations, runnning HTH horde might work, but large groups of shootas take up too much room to move and fire effectively at 24" 6+18". Most good players can see them coming a mile away. And tactically 30 shootas cant get the kind of formation to fire of all the boys and lucky to get 30-40(15-20 x2) shots when able. Also at 18" away thats counter fire of 14-16 shots back from double tapping anything, guardians, marines, tau.

I also had no answer for genestealer heavy nids, they stayed in cover and in CC, they are better than orks mass numbers.

bumpity

Can we get this as a sticky? Or a link to it? Or something?

Ptrout, dont give up on shootas. They didnt get anywhere because you have 3 battlewagons, 45 lootas and an undisclosed number of stromboyz in your list. This doesnt leave enough for a proper horde.

Cheap though they are if you want a horde to actually work you need to sink point into them and take 80 ork troops as a minimum. Yes they will die a lot, that is the idea, you take too many to shoot and the remnants plough into the enemy lines while still in fearless numbers.

Footslogging sluggas and shootas are very similar, both are supposed to pile in, but its just a balance of where they do the most damage, in close combat, or getting there.

I'm going to be fighting nidzilla this week.
My list is:
Big Mek with KFF

10 Lootas

4x30 Shootas with 3 Rokkits and Power Klaw Nobs

16 Stormboys with PK Nob with Bosspole

2 Kannons with Ammo Runts and 1 extra crew.

Now, problems I can see:
With only 1 mek, it's going to be difficult to keep all the boys in cover. Tabletop cover could help, but if I want to split up or spread out to avoid being pulped by the 4 Barbed Stranglers it's going to be difficult. I want to fit another Big Mek in, and the obvious choice to drop are the big gunz, but after that I need to free up an additional 30 points or so. What would you shave off to get there? I need all of the shootas and rokkits to go toe to toe with all of his MCs, which tend to stay close together screening his counter assault. It's vital that if I nail one carnifex in shooting I'm able to exploit the hole that opens with my lootas to nail his counter assault. The stormboys are essential for attacking his Gunfexes, which otherwise can sit far away and drop pie plates on me until I drop below critical mass.
So I have a bit of a dilema. Keep the list as is, and hope that the two relatively accurate kannons help tip the balance, or drop them and some other vital thing to squeeze in the second mek, also losing 2 scoring units?
I thought about dropping the rokkits off one squad and changing them to sluggas who will just chuck themselves at the nid lines, but I think to be honest that would be an excellent way to waste 215 points. Another option would be to drop two of the mobs to 29 strong with only 2 rokkits, but that isn't really pleasant either.
Damn, hordes are hard at 1500.
Any advice?

good job voodoo