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Orlanth wrote: Unlike SM there are no options for swapping things around to get some of the fast stuff as troops. Options are for marines, and don't say this is because of the new standardisation, DA can swap over the troops for variety, but all orks have the same build.

Just proof that you have no idea what you're talking about...

I really want to continue this discussion, because it's interesting, but not in the takktica. I made a thread with a quote and response here.

Please, lets continue it there. I may actually be able to start writing stuff up for the rest of the takkitca now that I finished the term project for my class last night.

Ok, Voodoo I will go along with that.

FA up soon?

skyth wrote:

Orlanth wrote: Unlike SM there are no options for swapping things around to get some of the fast stuff as troops. Options are for marines, and don't say this is because of the new standardisation, DA can swap over the troops for variety, but all orks have the same build.

Just proof that you have no idea what you're talking about...

Proof of what? The actual orks are incredibly cookie cutter now, how many viable builds from a nob, answer 2:klaw, with or without bosspole. From all the myriad characterful variations of the old dex.......
Lets take this to the other thread.

Wait, what? You mean there were other options people fielded before? Okay,.. kustom jobs.. but there were other things? Can't say I ever saw them...

Unit Evaluation: Fast Attack

Storm Boyz
Utility: Competitive
These Boyz are one of the best units in the Codex. They are seriously now the premier dedicated assault unit in the Ork army. Their big draw is that they move an extra 1D6” in the movement phase every turn, and can still shoot and charge after this extra movement. Sure if you roll a 1 then you take a wound (and still move 1”), but this downside is well worth the benefit.
Now remember that you roll this extra movement dice before you move the unit, so you always know exactly how far you can or can not move. This is absolutely huge, because if you know that your movement wont’ take you to the next piece of cover or into assault, you can plan accordingly. Also it’s important to realize that Storm Boyz are not “infantry” so you do not get any benefit from the “Waaagh” move. They’re fast, but not that fast!
One of the things that really make these Boyz shine is that on the charge, you stand a very good chance of getting most if not all of your mob engaged, because they’re so extremely fast. I recommend taking Mobz of at least 16 Boyz, and in a list where you are going to live with only one squad, I suggest taking the full mob of 20. I find it hard to build a competitive list without at least two Mobz of 16 Boyz in it though. These Boyz are that good!
Equipping your Boyz

They really don’t get a lot of options and to be honest, they don’t need them! They come with Frags already, and the only option is the no-brainer upgrade of a Nob, who by this point you should realize gets a Power Klaw and not the Huge Choppa. The Nob also has the option to take ‘Eavy Armor, which just like in normal Boyz Mobz, should be avoided as it’s relatively useless.

The question is whether or not to spend the points for a Bosspole, which can be worth it many times because these Boyz will see combat and LD is an issue. On the other hand I’m finding that points are so tight when building a competitive list that you really can run out of points and there is some idea that if your Boyz are losing combat and there is a small enough amount of them around that they’re going to break, they’re probably about to die anyway.

That all said, the honest truth is that the safer, more conservative bet is to spend the small bit of points and give them the Bosspole. After that they’re ready to hit the table. Just use cover and get them into CC safely and you should be set!

Special Character

Ahhh Zaagstruk, what a conundrum of a Character upgrade. He replaces the Nob now, and instead of giving you a 12” charge, he allows your unit to Deepstrike and Charge the turn you arrive! Not bad, but his “Power Klaw” that may go at I value, is only there on the turn you charge! And when you deepstrike and charge, you lose D3 Storm Boyz! Combine this with a hefty points cost, and I think you’ll find that he’s really not worth the points even with such a shocking ability.

War Buggies
Utility: Semi-Competitive

It’s amazing how something can go from near mandatory in one dex to only “OK” in the next one. Such is the power of new Codex’s and such is the fate of the War Buggy. These guys really used to be my favorite anti-tank units in an Ork army. They were cheap, they were fast, they were scoring, and they gave you somewhat reliable rokkits for a cheap price. Now they still do all those things, but they compete against other units that do the same job with either better durability (arguable) or with more utility (not so arguable).

Now I don’t mean to say that buggies should be avoided. I’m saying that it may be hard to find a place in your army for them, especially in light of the Storm Boyz that compete for this slot.

Equipping the Buggies

Big Shootas - The cheapest buggy gets you a Twin Linked Big Shoota. Given what the dakka output on these are, and the fact that you can get lots of shots other places in the Ork list, I pretty much write this option off, except in special cases which I’ll get to later.

Rokkits - Lootas make up for the anti-tank deficiency that Buggies used to fill in the old Ork list, and with only S8, they’re not the answer to our AV14 problems. So you’re not buying much anti-tank here. The upgrade here isn’t that expensive and is worth it over the Big Shoota if you have points to spare and want Buggies.

Skorcha – Oh what used to be the cheapest and one of the most effective options now becomes the most expensive, but at the same time, it’s still effective! Quick heavy flamers for not too many points ain’t too shabby! Hop out and scorch a squad and make your points back and then some! This is actually a decent option for the buggies if you actually want to use them offensively and have them fulfill a unique roll you can’t replicate elsewhere in the list.

Add-Ons – A whole lot of “meh” here. Some options like Armor Plates are tempting because hey, it’s extra armor on a scoring unit, yay for last turn moves to nab objectives!

Right?

Wrong. It’s AV10 open topped and this upgrade is 1/3 the cost of the vehicle. That’s a lot of points for something that will only come into play 1/6th of the time when glanced and 1/6th of the time when penetrated.

Grot Riggers - Likewise the nerf to Grot Riggers working in the shooting phase and not the beginning of the turn to make the unit mobile again also somewhat limit my wanting to take it on such a cheap vehicle. Still, it can turn the unit scoring again on the last turn if you get it into position, and that’s always helpful. Plus it’s relatively cheap, so it is worth while.

Red Paint Job – It’s more expensive now, but an extra inch does go a mile when using 24” Rokkits or Template Skorcha. Also if you’re going to use these guys with other ideas in mind like nabbing objectives at the end of the game, that extra inch really does help.

Wartrakk Upgrade – Debatable here. You can move 24-25” a turn, many times you can go around terrain features to get where you need to. Likewise, if you’re rolling for dangerous terrain tests you’ll probably be rolling 2D6 99% of the time, where you still have a chance at failing. I just don’t know if this is worth the cost, I’m guessing not since I like my buggies cheap as possible.

Other Uses
There are other uses to this cheap little vehicle besides direct damage and objective grabbing.

Some people are already talking about converting Buggies from the new Trukk model. By doing so, they can create the perfect cheap “Screen Unit” for a whole lot of actual Trukk bound Mobz hiding behind it.

The new models look to be pretty high, and basing the Buggies on those models certainly can win you “modeling points” with opponents, since current buggies pre-date 2nd Edition, but by screening Trukks with them, you may be considered to be “modeling to your advantage” which can bring about a huge question in sportsmanship and/or a hit in a sports score at a tournament. So while this tactic is quite valid, it has some out-of-game consequences in it.

Additionally with this tactic, you want at least two units of 2 to 3 Buggies to effectively screen your Trukks. Which means you’re cutting into the amount of Storm Boyz that you can field in an army, and even when going with lots of Trukks, having a big mob of Storm Boyz to back you up in situations is crucial, so finding the balance between the two is going to be hard if you’re dead set on this kind of application.


Warbikers
Utility: Poor

Ahh another “unit that could have been great”. I’ll sum up the changes really fast here:

Now get Slugga + Choppa for Extra CC attack = Good
Lose Psycho Blasta Special Rule = Bad, but fair enough
Gain 4+ Armor Save, Cover Save increased to 4+ = Great!
No more cover save passed to units behind them = Bad, but fair enough
Lose Fearless = Unit is no longer worth fielding!

Much like with Nobz, Mega Nobz, or any small unit of expensive Orks, these Boyz will not stick around very long once the going gets tough! The major LD issues that these guys will experience when stuck in where they want to be – Close Combat with a PK Nob, they will simply have problems against units with Power Fists or anything that gets past their T5 and 4+ Save. In fact against anything with a higher number of attacks is going to cause problems, and in the world of “competitive 40k” these things are not hard to come by.

Now granted, with their 4+ Cover save they’re pretty resilient from shooting with decent AP values, and T5 is pretty nice, but you will need to hug cover and only come out when it’s time to shoot and charge something, because if you take units with only say 6 Bikes in them, with 2 Casualties, they’re testing on LD7 to run. Not pretty. Sure when they come out they can shoot with their nice Twin Linked half range Big Shootas and then charge, which will put some hurt on a squad of Marines, it’s still not that impressive for something you can get elsewhere in the list for less points with much more durability (here’s a hint, it’s the first thing in the Fast Attack Section and it begins with Storm and ends with Boyz).

Equipping the Bikes
They don’t have many options, and what they do have is covered everywhere else. If you buy them, they probably want to get stuck in, since any casualties they inflict via their somewhat decent shooting will probably lead to them getting shot and wiped out by whatever else is close to your target.

The kit is straight forward – Nob, Power Klaw, Bosspole. The Bosspole is arguable because you inflict a wound on an expensive unit with only a 4+ save, but to be honest sticking around after failing a fall back test is better than being completely dead then and there. If you have to ask why you’re taking the Power Klaw over the Huge Choppa, you need to go re-read the other sections of the Takktica.

To be honest I feel bad rating them “Poor”, but competitively speaking, they just are. Sure they can be used in a rewarding fashion in fun games, like most non-competitive options in the dex. They’re somewhat cheap enough where a unit of 5 or 6 with a PK Nob and maybe bosspole can keep them around and it’s under 200 Points for the unit, which isn’t too bad. Used right they can do good things though in some matchups they will not have any good targets to go up against.

Helping them be somewhat useful for fun
One way to alleviate the problems of this unit, which are mainly LD based is simply to throw a Warboss or special character into the unit. This probably leads to "overkill" in terms of damage output, because the Boss is so potent, and thus is probably better off on his own, but if you were looking for a way to use this Mob without having too much trouble because of the rules, this is one way around the problem.

Deff Koptas
Utility: Semi-Competitive

Ahh, something else good in the fast section! Granted these guys aren’t the greatest thing in Fast Attack, but they do have their uses!

First off they’re scouts and jet bikes. That alone is pretty neat for setting up a few first turn charges, except for the fact that the Koptas are saddled with some mediocre combat upgrades that almost double the cost of the model! Also consider the max mob size of 5 and their LD is 7 and you get the idea that having Deff Koptas in an assault with a unit with a Power Fist and you start to understand why assault may be a bad idea.

Of course they have some other uses too. They can be given twin linked rokkits for just 10 more points compared to a Rokkit Buggy, and they can be taken in units of 1, which really do make them good contenders for “Last Turn Objective Grabbers”. The sad part is that with the current state of 40k Rules, T4(5) with 2W and a 4+ Armor Save is much more durable than an AV10 vehicle.

Additionally, using this option opens up some nice possibilities. In games where you can go first, you can use the Deff Koptas to scout up, and then move 12” into position to shoot TL Rokkits at Skimmers hiding behind terrain for turn 1, before they move. Granted this isn’t always a sure-fire way to bring skimmers down, but it is a possibility for use.

Other than this, there are a few key words of wisdom for using the Koptas:

-Small units should be used for objective grabbing. One model should be fine for this as it bypasses the LD problems of the unit.
-Big units are needed if you’re going to try for the turn 1 charge. Given the squad limitations I’d say a unit of 4 is probably optimal; however as Redbeard pointed out, a unit of 2 Koptas with one Buzzsaw could be used as a simple "charge and tie combat" unit for turn 1 charges that are mainly there to stop infantry from firing at you. A squad of 4 can take on harder targets but will likely wipe out what they charge which can be disadvantageous at times. Just be careful with the Squads of 2 as it'll take only 1 casualty to see something run off.
--Probably only one bike should have the Power Klaw as it gets expensive otherwise.
-Don’t forget they have Hit and Run! Coordinating use of Hit and Run to tie up shooty squads that may struggle to hurt the Kopta in Close Combat is a great application for these guys! Devastators are a prime target for this kind of application.

The issue with the Koptas is that they’re perfectly suited to say, killing a unit without a Power Fist or without a whole lot of hitting power in CC, like Marine tactical squads. The problem here is that a LOT of the lackluster Ork units fall into this category and the Koptas share all their LD problems. Though truth be told the Deth Koptas can do a few things most units in this category can’t: Scout, and Hit & Run.

Equipping the Koptas

Twin Linked Big Shoota – Default weapon and thus the cheapest option. I recommend sticking with this if your Koptas don’t plan to do anything but claim objectives at the end of a game. Additionally, if you’re going to go for an assault style unit then this gun works out pretty nice to soften up infantry before a charge. It also helps cut costs since assault Kopta units are expensive and small by nature.

Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha – Probably the overall utility for the Kopta. Assigning a unit of these Fly Boyz to do some anti-tank work early on in the game is pretty straight forward and isn’t a half bad idea. The points cost is higher than I’d like but it’s fair for what you get, a semi-reliable Rokkit shot on a maneuverable unit.

Kustom Mega Blasta – Avoid it like the plague!! You go to something that’s only got one shot, is not twin linked, and it can hurt your Kopta. This thing has got “Bad Idea” written all over it. As a tank hunter, the TL Rokkit is more reliable and worth the paltry increase in cost to get it over the KMB. In terms of actually bringing AP2 to the list, it’s one shot with “gets hot” at BS2, this is a bad idea!

Big Bomm – I’m pretty “meh” on this upgrade. It’s not the most reliable thing and it’s damage output isn’t that great with just a S4 AP5 Pie Plate. I wouldn’t mind taking it at the cost listed if it wasn’t a single shot weapon. As it is, I just don’t see it as worth while.

Buzzsaw – Power Klaws for Deff Koptas! Great right? Well not really. It costs a ton of points and it’s on a normal Boy who gets no benefit for having two CCW’s, so you get 3 attacks on the charge at S7, and then 2 attacks at S6 after that. Granted the Koptas have Hit and Run so you can keep charging if needed, but I think that it’s an OK upgrade at best. They’re good just like say Bikes – if you want to kill MEQ’s without Power Fists in the squad, a unit with a Buzzsaw in it can start wreaking havoc on turn 1 if things work out right for you.

Equipping your Koptas is dependent on what you want to do with them. For last turn objective grabbers, cheap ones work fine. Turn 1 assaulters want some punch and the Buzzsaw brings that. General utility says go for the Rokkits to hunt tanks if you feel you need that ability in your list. One thing is clear though, avoid the Kustom Mega Blasta!

Fast Attack Summary

Well we’ve got four units here, one clear winner in terms of direct power and one loser unit. Between them we have two units who may not be the best available choices, but definitely have their uses, even if in just a limited way, in a competitive Ork list.

The basic thing you need to realize when you look at the Fast Attack section is that Storm Boyz really are one of the strongest units in the Codex. To put it simply a somewhat cheap unit that can charge anywhere from 19-24” that has a lot of bodies, a lot of attacks, and a Hidden Power Klaw Nob is bad news for ANY target. These Boyz can take down vehicles in a pinch, they can preemptively charge big nasties like Flying Tyrants or Demon Princes, and they can enforce a healthy dose of area denial wherever you put them.

They are the premier counter assault unit in the codex and they should never be over looked when creating any kind of competitive list. With their speed and some tactical deployment, you should be able to use cover effectively and limit them from taking any incoming fire, getting them to charge when and where you need them. The tactical advantages they bring to your army list can not be denied.

The other choices like Buggies or Deff Koptas are decent but will require a lot more tactics and work to get mileage out of, but can be more rewarding – especially in friendly games. Bikes are also a unit on this level and barely miss’s the cut to be called “Semi-Competitive”, but when used say in conjunction with a Boss on Bike or just used carefully they can be a decent unit to be used in friendly games. Just don’t expect too much out of them or for them to be “tournament worthy” and you should do just fine with them if you put your head to it.

I think you're wrong about dethkoptas.

First, I think that if you buy them the buzzsaw, they get an extra attack for the extra CCW. Their base equipment includes a choppa, and the wording in the codex says that a dethkopta with a buzzsaw counts as "having a powerklaw". That means that you now have a model with a choppa and a powerklaw, as nothing about the upgrade indicates a replacement, and that means you've got yourself two CCWs, which gives you an extra attack.


Second, I think their usefulness isn't about winning a combat on the first turn, it's about tying combat on the first turn. These guys are ideal for turbo-scouting, charging on turn 1, and preventing a unit from shooting during your opponent's turn - possibly more than one if others are behind it. Hold them up to give the other boyz an extra turn to advance, and then hit&run out. With T(5), W2 and a 4+ save, they're at good odds to avoid damage against anything but powerfists, and I've yet to see a shooty army that's got powerfists in every squad. With 4 powerfist swings on the charge, you should be able to put one wound on your opponent, and, with a base I2, you might even get to pick which weapon you're using after seeing if you took a wound. If you didn't take a wound, it can actually be beneficial to swing with the choppa instead of the buzzsaw in order to guaruantee that the combat ends in a tie and the opponent stays tied up for your shooting phase.

I'm running a unit of two, with 1 buzzsaw, and whatever they lack in raw power, they're making up in tactical advantage.

Redbeard wrote:I think you're wrong about dethkoptas.

First, I think that if you buy them the buzzsaw, they get an extra attack for the extra CCW. Their base equipment includes a choppa, and the wording in the codex says that a dethkopta with a buzzsaw counts as "having a powerklaw". That means that you now have a model with a choppa and a powerklaw, as nothing about the upgrade indicates a replacement, and that means you've got yourself two CCWs, which gives you an extra attack.


Second, I think their usefulness isn't about winning a combat on the first turn, it's about tying combat on the first turn. These guys are ideal for turbo-scouting, charging on turn 1, and preventing a unit from shooting during your opponent's turn - possibly more than one if others are behind it. Hold them up to give the other boyz an extra turn to advance, and then hit&run out. With T(5), W2 and a 4+ save, they're at good odds to avoid damage against anything but powerfists, and I've yet to see a shooty army that's got powerfists in every squad. With 4 powerfist swings on the charge, you should be able to put one wound on your opponent, and, with a base I2, you might even get to pick which weapon you're using after seeing if you took a wound. If you didn't take a wound, it can actually be beneficial to swing with the choppa instead of the buzzsaw in order to guaruantee that the combat ends in a tie and the opponent stays tied up for your shooting phase.

I'm running a unit of two, with 1 buzzsaw, and whatever they lack in raw power, they're making up in tactical advantage.

I dunno about the two CCW thing you're pointing out. By RAW, you're correct though, so this may need a revision pending a FAQ or at least talking with people in general to see what the "accepted" interpretation is for play.

Also, I whole heartedly agree with what you're saying about tying things down in turn 1. I hope I didn't give off the idea that they need to "win" the CC on the turn they charge, since the whole trick to assaults is to make sure that you stay in combat through your opponents turn and then hit and run away to charge something else at the end of their assault phase or to finish combat in their turn.

Did my section on the Deth Koptas really come across as trying to emphasize that they must win CC on their turn? I was merely trying to make sure that they never "lose" combat since they will likely be easily outnumbered at least in small units and you don't want to have them testing to run. Is there a specific line you'd like to see revised here?

I can definitely add some parts about just using a small squad of 2 for lockdown duty, instead of taking a squad of 4 to "win assaults" though. That's a good point that deserves mentioning.

I would put a little more mention of the Biker Warboss into the bikes section. He easily covers their negative leadership. I would almost consider a Biker Squad Mandatory if I was fielding a biker boss, for the protection and addition combat support.

Mahu wrote:I would put a little more mention of the Biker Warboss into the bikes section. He easily covers their negative leadership. I would almost consider a Biker Squad Mandatory if I was fielding a biker boss, for the protection and addition combat support.

The Biker Boss can cover the LD deficiencies of the Nob Bikers and regular Bike Mobz pretty well, and I'll revise this to mention that in the Bike entry, but I disagree with your assertion on them being "Mandatory" for the Biker Boss.

The Biker Boss is exceptionally "good" because of the fact that he's a monster in CC with decent survivability while still being an IC. This enables you to have him be a "guaranteed" assaulter since he can't be targeted if he's not the closest unit. By putting him with a mob, you can end up in situations where any casualties caused by the Bikes he's with will just result in models being pulled from B2B with the Boss, denying his I1 PK Attacks.

This isn't as much of an issue for PK Nobz who just have to be within 2" of an engaged model to attack, so it's hard to become un-engaged.

With Nobz Mobz with ungodly attacks at S5 on the charge, I can see escorting them with a Biker Boss because they're a fun unit, but in terms of overall effectiveness, I see the Biker Boss being far more useful by himself, able to go where he's needed when he's needed and putting him into CC with whatever he needs to be with.

I think that the utility of running a bike squad with a Biker Boss is rather good. Either he is joined to the sqaud and preventing any early shooting and run situations. Or he is running along side the Bikes keeping the he safe.

Not Mandatory but certainly enough to take the bikes out of the "poor" category to maybe semi-competitive.

You could always keep the WB with the bikes as a ld bonus until they reach the enemy then split them off in one turn and go after two targets.

Alass the extra ld for the bikes would be more useful in this assault phase than on the march forward. But of ocurse as voodoo said keeping the boss with them will (unless the enemy is daft) negate the boss fighting by takeing casualties from his base, unless ya sneaky and get him in on the flank in b2b with a model that cannot be engaged with the rest of the bikes. Even if you manage this, the boss in the unit will be a bit of over kill (12 PK attacks!)

Mahu wrote:I think that the utility of running a bike squad with a Biker Boss is rather good. Either he is joined to the sqaud and preventing any early shooting and run situations. Or he is running along side the Bikes keeping the he safe.

Not Mandatory but certainly enough to take the bikes out of the "poor" category to maybe semi-competitive.

Well it's a question of who helps who here.

Boss escorting Bikes

The only thing the Boss does is ensure the delivery of a squad of Bikes by making sure that they don't run from shooting. The problem is that the bike squad doesn't really do a whole lot on the charge that other units don't do without the Warboss.

Likewise if your Bikes are being shot at before being delivered there's a problem since you should be trying to hide them as much as possible. Still their saves are good enough that they should weather some fire. Perhaps using a Biker Boss with them to get them to the point where they can charge next turn is viable, to allow them to stick it out through a round of shooting that's required in order to be where you want to be.

After that, as Latro_ points out, the Boss is overkill in assault and he probably should separate from the squad to let them tackle their target of opportunity while he goes off to deal with something else.

Bikes screening Boss

Here they can act as a screen if you must move the warboss somewhere away from the horde, out in the open. Not bad, but then you're sacrificing an expensive squad to do this where say, two buggies that cost only 5 points more than a Bike could effectively do the same thing, or Storm Boyz, or Koptas, or anything small, fast, and counting as a "unit".

Again, not seeing a whole lot here that's being added other than the fact that "you can use bikes and have them be delivered where you want them to shoot and assault a unit".

The problem is that it's not getting you anything that you can't get elsewhere in the list that does the same job better. Deth Koptas Hit and Run and Scout, Storm Boyz charge further and don't have LD issues. Buggies provide longer range big shoota fire in mass quantities if that's what you were after.

Sure I see mentioning using the Boss as a method to "help Bikes not suck" but I still don't see any utility in their use that isn't done elsewhere better, which is why I've rated them as such.

Good points and I agree with your assessment.

As a Ravenwing player, I have a lot of experience with Bike Characters supported by bikes, but in the context of the overall list you are dead on. I just hate to see such cool new models get such poor use.

duplicate reply, something went odd - please delete

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

The problem is that it's not getting you anything that you can't get elsewhere in the list that does the same job better. Deth Koptas Hit and Run and Scout, Storm Boyz charge further and don't have LD issues. Buggies provide longer range big shoota fire in mass quantities if that's what you were after.

Sure I see mentioning using the Boss as a method to "help Bikes not suck" but I still don't see any utility in their use that isn't done elsewhere better, which is why I've rated them as such.

Storm boyz technically 'charge' further, however they dont have a 24" boost to anywhere they want. Assuming a normal 48" wide board, bikes are a turn -d6 a head of storm boyz.
They also have that 1 in 6 chance of one of them dieing each turn, Plus a unit of 16-18 storm boyz is gonna take up as much room in regards to using cover as 7-8 bikes. Also random movement is still random movement, and in this unit's case you dont wanna take risks by falling short on a charge e.g. relying on the extra d6. I can see the extra d6 as more of a added plus for:

1. on moving 12" using the d6 for positioning in cover
2. on being within 19" (being more away and hoping for a good d6 roll is foolish, missing a charge with a unit like this spells disaster) so a charge is safe, the extra d6 (2+) i'll be using for positioning again before the charge so as to get an optimum charge arrangement.

In this vain i dont see the d6 really boosting their speed as much as it seems. going back to the charge example you wanna make sure you are within 19", the same goes for cover hopping. I'd try and plan from the start, a least out in the open 19" to 19" cover hop route. I would not rely on the extra d6 to get me all the way there. However once behind the cover and maxing out the normal move, the d6 is handy for positioning the models in the cover.

Dont get me wrong I intially was gonna take 5 bikes, but have now swapped them for another shoota boy unit and am going with screened truks and storm boyz as my fast (with the 121 now 150 pt mandatory biker boss). I just dont think the line between storm boyz and other fast units is as wide as it seems.

The problem is that you can't rely on the bikes making it to their target or doing nearly as much damage, or being as reliable in terms of sticking around if things don't go their way. You also get about 2 Storm Boyz for every bike. I don't mean to keep putting the bikes down like this, but to be honest I'm just not seeing them do anything well. Especially not doing something well enough in comparison to the Storm Boyz to label them anything other than "Poor".

Also, the takktica was updated with the suggestions mentioned here, I also threw the "put a boss in here to make them not as bad" in the Nobz and MegaNobz sections.

I'm with Voodoo in terms of the viability of bikes. If they were still fearless, a small mob of bikers would make a good nob delivery system. Without being fearless, the small (2+nob) mob now tests vs Ld7 after one casualty, and the reroll costs you a quarter of the unit half the time. And that just doesn't hold up compared to koptas and stormboyz.

I can see a couple of units of bikes being used effectively in conjunction with Ghazgulls ability to make non fleeing units fearless for a whole game turn, but I can never see them being more than one hit wonders.

Hi there!

Well, first post around, cheers for me!

First of all congratulations for the thread which is being carried with very healthy discussion almost in a "greek" point of view with all kinds of constructive crittics and a surprising rate of "in-topic" comments.

Second, here are my 2 cents for the fast attack section of the codex, specially regarding bikers and their utility vs stormboyz.
Unlike Voodoboyz I haven't had the chance to playtest the leak, so I'll be talking from my results in scratch paper and a little bit of abstract mathhammer, so maybe my ideas would crumble once put to the test.

IMHO bikers are only slight less competitive than stormboyz, if something they are less specialized and slightly more vertatile. Here's the comparison:
For the points cost of a big unit of 20 stormboyz along with nob, PK and bosspole you get 12 bikerz, nob, PK, and bosspole (and still have X points left that don't get you another bike, but close to it). It's not a big difference in numbers. Now what are the differences? We are talking about 8 bikerz less, so it's a priory a relative gap in terms of squad size.

1) stormboyz have the chance to move "normally" more than any biker UNLESS the bikes do turboboost. This has been enoughly stated but the implications are that you can better tweak movements towards cover and arrange charges better with stormboyz.
2) Stormboyz are easier to hide being infantry models. This is not a small detail when we talk about a horde army cover can be an expensive gift.
3) Stormboyz risk suffering wounds each time they do their extra movement, and they're not precisely durable in terms of armor
4) Stormboyz cannot turboboost which is a very useful ability that can get you objectives in the last turn or arrange a flank attack early in the game.
5) Bikerz are by far more hard to beat than stormboyz due to better armor, cover save and increased toughness.
6) Bikerz are shootier und thus can acomplish different tasks and pose a menace from a greater distance than stormboyz. 36 shots from 18'' is not something to disregard rapidly
7) Bikerz a good way of delivering the biker boss and the PK nob against AV 14 verhicles if they are a common issue in your gaming background. It's already been discussed that AV 14 is a major threat for orks and every little help can be useful.

Well this is just a starting point from which we can discuss further. I'm really interested in what you have to say...

I don't know what you're talking about here man. 12 Bikes is about 100 more points than 16 Storm Boyz. The costs for the Nob, PK, and Bosspoles are the same.

Ooooooops big calculation error!

Everything I said should be aplied to a big squad of 20 stormboyz, sorry people, but posting at the same time as working is not a good idea

I'll edit the original post as well, but in essence, save for the number of boyz the idea in the comparison is the same. Again, sorry for the horrible calculations...

Dude it's still not even that much. You literally get two storm boyz for every single bike you buy, and even then it's a point cheaper to have two storm boyz vs. one bike. Even the unit of 20 vs. 12 you're still looking at a decent number of points difference between the two units.

I see where you're going with this, and against certain targets where you can rely on taking armor saves to keep you alive, the Bikes are better off, but the Storm Boyz can handle most of those situations as well and they have a lot less to worry about Psychology wise on the way in to boot.

I just had another idea. how about a Big Mek with 3 oilers on a bike? should work well in armys with many vehicles.

True enough on the topic of psychology! But that's when it might be wothwhile to consider gifting the bikerz with da boss just to be sure. Points aside (really don't do this at a hospital ), I think mathammerwise 12 bikers should benefit for a while from the mob rule, even losing three of them, which is a lot more difficult than loosing 3 stormboyz, you still roll for Ld 9 without needing the boss, and you still have the nob and his bosspole if things get nasty. Moreover, these guys have a better chance of resisting the bosspole wound than the stormboyz themselves.

In the end I think that bikerz are maybe more difficult to use in order for them to pay off the points they cost (after finally calculating them well ) but they are slightly more versatile than sotmrboyz who on the other hand we all agree that are the best in the army list for doing their job. Still I would not overlook the idea of combining the squad with the biker boss at some parts of some battles, to gain a few more chances of hitting AV 14 vehicles.

Maybe these two points make the biker option ascend from poor to semi-competitive.

how can 30 str 5 twin linked shots not be a good thing? bikes are ment to thin down squads that you are preparing to assault, causing torrents of fire and such. you want your warboss biker to assault a pfist squad safely? torrent them and make the fist owner take the save.

with their 4+ cover and increased toughness they are more resilient than people are giving them credit for. add to that the nob w/ klaw and you have the ability to deal with vehicles or tac squads in a hurry. bikes could be used to tie up a dev squad on turn 2 because of their crazy movement.

I already own 15.. but they'll be replaced with the new models and I think they are definately worth fielding.

NaZ

Hello Voodoo and Everyone,

It's a great thread so far. Many thanks! I've found it very interesting.

I have to whole-heartedly concur with Voodoo's assessment that psychology will work against small, elite units of orks (barring any miraculous changes in the alleged 5th ed.) However, I think the disadvantages can be managed somewhat if a player is careful and thoughtful and, let's face it, a little lucky.

A unit with low numbers and a likely LD of 7 is going to suffer greatly from the loss of even a few models. In a one on one situation, this can be disastrous--poor model placement/removal can lead to a squad being annihilated via sweeping advance. Recall, however, that the sweeping advance applies only if the following conditions exist at the end of a round of HTH:

1) Orks have to loose combat. This is hardly a given. The good thing about Elite Ork units is that, for the most part, they are fairly good at HTH combat. Again, you're not likely to win against a dedicated cc unit like assault marines (which likely will attack first) or a HTH hoarde (like gaunts who will survive, hit back and outnumber)--so pick when and what you attack very carefully. Of course, no amount of planning can account for poor rolling and, inevitably players are going to take chances with elite units.

2) Orks have to fail a morale check. OK. The Mob rule is great if you have more than 7 models in your unit--otherwise, it's useless. As stated, this is a problem for elite units which likely will have 5-10 models. In this case, IMHO, Bosspoles are essential. I'd much rather pay the nominal fee for a bosspole than risk an entire elite unit on one die roll. Sure, you are obliged to take a wound for the privilege of re-rolling, but without the re-roll, that model is dead anyway. For this reason, I can't understand why people abhor the thought of having to take a 4+ save on an expensive biker. You aren't using the re-roll, after all, unless you've already failed the initial morale check. In any case, '7' is the number the most likely to come up when two six-sided dice are rolled. If you have two cracks at this roll, it's not that unlikely that at least one of those rolls will be successful. [Of course, you need to be aware of modifiers in this instance. It may not make sense to charge that expensive unit of bikers into a pile of gaunts, for example, as the outnumbering may cause havoc if the Orks should need to make a morale check.] Again, inevitably, players are going to fail morale checks, with or without bosspoles. So, onto number...

3) The Sweeping Unit Has to Have Models in Base to Base with the Fleeing Unit. I re-read the rules last night to ensure I was not talking out of my butt. In order to sweep, the 'sweeping' unit has to have models in B2B with the unit that looses combat. The advantage of having small elite units is that it allows you to more easily align the individual models to your advantage. Try and get it so that the unit is entirely within the killzone, but only a few models are actually in B2B. If you are losing models, you should remove them from the front first (ie those in base to base) so that, if you lose combat, the winning side can only consolidate while your breaking-off unit can move away 2D6 (3D6 in the case of bikes).

Of course, the disadvantage of taking models from the front is that you are removing engaged models--i.e. giving up potential attacks. So, you will have to decide on a case-by-case basis how and when models get removed. (Because of the proliferation of powerfists, you can almost guarantee that the opposition will be causing wounds at the initiative 1 level. You'll have to guage whether you want to risk keeping models in the fray or removing them for safety.) Casualty management, if you can call it that, is critical if you want to prolong the life of that small expensive unit.

4) The Sweeping Unit May Not Be Otherwise Engaged. The other condition that needs to be satisfied is that the 'sweeping unit' cannot be engaged by a separate unit. If it is, the elite, orky unit can withdraw normally without being overrun. In my opinion, this is the easiest way to guarantee the survival of your elite unit... use it as part of a coordinated strategy. Charge an enemy unit with the elites and a unit of boyz at the same time, for example. We can all agree that, now more than ever, mobs of boyz are basically just Nob delivery systems. They are cheap, but more importantly, they are fearless in numbers exceeding 11. If you manage to hit a unit with and elite and 'tie up' unit at the same time, you will enjoy many benefits:

1) The enemy will have to split its hth attacks between the elite unit and the mob. (Usually, neither the elite unit nor the mob will be subject to 100% of the opponents attacks. This means neither unit should get mauled).

2) You get more attacks on the enemy (obviously) and are more likely to win the combat.

3) For morale purposes you will outnumber the enemy in the event of a victory.

4) If you lose combat, the boyz will almost certainly remain stuck-in (if there are 11 or more they are fearless, if they have a bosspole they get a re-roll) giving your elite unit the opportunity to sneak away and regroup (hopefully).

5) If you wipe out the enemy, you can often consolidate your expensive unit behind the unit of boyz so they don't get mauled in the opponent's round of shooting and HTH.

Sure, there are lots of issues with timing charges like this, but in my opinion, the people who can overcome these challenges and get the "double charge" are the great 40K generals. In order for an army to enjoy regular success, it needs to be more than the sum of its parts.

Certain pairings work better together because of their relative speed--stormboyz or trukkboyz are better paired with bikers as they are both quick. Of course, bikers can wait in cover until the sloggers get into charge-range before springing the trap... it all depends on how each individual game unfolds. Consider as well, how the hit-and-run ability of dethkoptas might be applied to these tactics. I think there is a lot of potential.

Naturally, there are many variations to this plan. Dreds and Killa Kanz would also be appropriate 'tie-up' units... they are as equally fearless as boyz and will similarly allow expensive elite units to withdraw in the unlikley face of defeat.

So, in short, while I agree with Voodoo that elite unites with low numbers and low leadership can be problems, I think these units have more potential than he has given them credit for.

Hope this was useful.

Shamed-1

Good post but I have a problem with one thing that your saying....

ShamedOne wrote:

3) The Sweeping Unit Has to Have Models in Base to Base with the Fleeing Unit. I re-read the rules last night to ensure I was not talking out of my butt. In order to sweep, the 'sweeping' unit has to have models in B2B with the unit that looses combat. The advantage of having small elite units is that it allows you to more easily align the individual models to your advantage. Try and get it so that the unit is entirely within the killzone, but only a few models are actually in B2B. If you are losing models, you should remove them from the front first (ie those in base to base) so that, if you lose combat, the winning side can only consolidate while your breaking-off unit can move away 2D6 (3D6 in the case of bikes).

Unfortunatly with the orks less than steller initiative almost everything is going to be going before them I3 on the charge is pathetic, which means the other guy is going to be killing you before you kill him. If you pull out your orks in BTB first, you will not have anything to attack with when you I3 comes around. So why did you charge? Unfortunatly the only chance the ork player has is to get every boy stuck in so you can get maximum attacks, pulling casulties from the back ranks. Its the only way to get the maximum number of attacks and to be sure that the Nob can get his hits in. So if we do loose, we will have a boy in BTB, thus we run the risk of getting massacured. Its not like the Tau where we are more than happy to give up our turn to attack to get the chance to run away. This is a risk Orks have to take, unfortunatly I think its a little too harsh on the boys because they are saddled with LD7 and quite possibly outnumbered at the end of the combat. Elite squads to tend to be small.

4) The Sweeping Unit May Not Be Otherwise Engaged. The other condition that needs to be satisfied is that the 'sweeping unit' cannot be engaged by a separate unit. If it is, the elite, orky unit can withdraw normally without being overrun. In my opinion, this is the easiest way to guarantee the survival of your elite unit... use it as part of a coordinated strategy. Charge an enemy unit with the elites and a unit of boyz at the same time, for example. We can all agree that, now more than ever, mobs of boyz are basically just Nob delivery systems.

While good in practice, there is one possible flaw in your plan. Yes you can let the elite squad escape if the enemy unit is also engaged with other boys, but you did have to fail the moral check for them to break it off its never voluntary for the orks. Because of the small number of models in elite squads, there is a strong chance that your under half strength. If this is the case say bye-bye to that squad. Were not marines, we don't regroup. We flee. In the case of bikers... we flee very fast.

Jayden63 wrote:Good post but I have a problem with one thing that your saying....

ShamedOne wrote:

3) The Sweeping Unit Has to Have Models in Base to Base with the Fleeing Unit. I re-read the rules last night to ensure I was not talking out of my butt. In order to sweep, the 'sweeping' unit has to have models in B2B with the unit that looses combat. The advantage of having small elite units is that it allows you to more easily align the individual models to your advantage. Try and get it so that the unit is entirely within the killzone, but only a few models are actually in B2B. If you are losing models, you should remove them from the front first (ie those in base to base) so that, if you lose combat, the winning side can only consolidate while your breaking-off unit can move away 2D6 (3D6 in the case of bikes).

Unfortunatly with the orks less than steller initiative almost everything is going to be going before them I3 on the charge is pathetic, which means the other guy is going to be killing you before you kill him. If you pull out your orks in BTB first, you will not have anything to attack with when you I3 comes around. So why did you charge? Unfortunatly the only chance the ork player has is to get every boy stuck in so you can get maximum attacks, pulling casulties from the back ranks. Its the only way to get the maximum number of attacks and to be sure that the Nob can get his hits in. So if we do loose, we will have a boy in BTB, thus we run the risk of getting massacured. Its not like the Tau where we are more than happy to give up our turn to attack to get the chance to run away. This is a risk Orks have to take, unfortunatly I think its a little too harsh on the boys because they are saddled with LD7 and quite possibly outnumbered at the end of the combat. Elite squads to tend to be small.

4) The Sweeping Unit May Not Be Otherwise Engaged. The other condition that needs to be satisfied is that the 'sweeping unit' cannot be engaged by a separate unit. If it is, the elite, orky unit can withdraw normally without being overrun. In my opinion, this is the easiest way to guarantee the survival of your elite unit... use it as part of a coordinated strategy. Charge an enemy unit with the elites and a unit of boyz at the same time, for example. We can all agree that, now more than ever, mobs of boyz are basically just Nob delivery systems.

While good in practice, there is one possible flaw in your plan. Yes you can let the elite squad escape if the enemy unit is also engaged with other boys, but you did have to fail the moral check for them to break it off its never voluntary for the orks. Because of the small number of models in elite squads, there is a strong chance that your under half strength. If this is the case say bye-bye to that squad. Were not marines, we don't regroup. We flee. In the case of bikers... we flee very fast.

Yeah he's got a heck of a point here. One thing I've learned with the new Boyz is that we will take a lot of hits in assault. This army wins through attrition, which is why the "Small elite units" just aren't going to be worth it competitively, IMO.


Getting back to other fun pieces of the takktica (I know I should be writing the Heavy section, but hear me out on this), I was thinking about changing my standard 1750 list which is basically "Shoota Boyz, Lootas, and Storm Boyz". I'm thinking that Snikrot's Kommando's are going to be an almost necessity in most if not all matchups. They're essentially an unblockable assault, and despite the fact that they don't have a Power Klaw in the mob, they do have two power weapons and a fegload of attacks. They work out a bit more expensive than the Storm Boy squad of 16, but with the "Come on from any table edge" setup, they can catch just about anything, especially with a Waaagh move. That's pretty good against Tau, IG, Marines, pretty much anything I think.

I know I rated them "Competitive" in the new Dex, and while they're kind of a special case in terms of utility I'm thinking they could be useful. There are only two downsides to using them though:

1.) If you play against an all Mech List in escalation and you are forced to go first, they can come on and then just get shot. :(
2.) In almost any match up I can conceive of for these guys I see them getting ground down and killed. The question is if sacrificing a 265 point squad fully loaded is worth the amount of disruption and "they're not shooting me" that the unit will cause in enemy lines.

I think Snikrot is going to be the 'must-have' special character among competative ork players, and Zagstruk is going to be the "oooh shiny" for not-so-good players. Snikrot gets in your opponent's head. He serves a similar role in the new list that the basilisk/russ did in the old list; he provides subtle encouragement for your opponent to actually advance towards you.

Zaggy, on the other hand, is a huge gamble. If you aim to use his special "assault on arrival" trick, you need to deep strike close enough to risk scattering into enemy units, and any other directional scatter probably takes him out of assault range, leaving him to get shot up. If you're not using that ability, then you're better off with a PK nob, and you'll probably see assault earlier that way too.