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mikhaila wrote:Tim-
This isn't something I consider to be a moneymaker for my stores. Limited item, Limited market, and Limited number that I can actually order for my stores. For people in the local area I'm going to honor the 200.00 price. If that's going to be in your budget, let me know and I'll set one aside for you. I may have a 'sample' soon that you can take a look at. The sample will be going home to my game room after Christmas. But for now all the head accountant (wife) is being told is that it's a 'sample'.

That sounds great I would love one, but I worry that I just wouldn't have that kind of spare cash available until after the holidays at the very least. Unless someone suddenly buys my house, but I'm not holding my breath With xmas approaching fast i gotta make sure I can afford gifts... so I may be holding off on game purchases for a bit other than what I already ordered, etc. and to top that off I went and found myself a new woman, so that means even more presents to throw my good gaming money away on. I'd ask her to get the board for me for xmas, but she thinks I "have enough army men" .. Bah, humbug!!

If you do end up with an extra board or 2 I would probably be interested still, but I just don't want you to order one just for me and then I can't afford it :(

yeah,
...quiet time necros...you have a new woman...

I think we need to wait till more people have held this before we say it's good/bad.

Panic..

well to throw in my 2 cents.....


First of all cost wise- what i've heard is that the manufactoing peoples had unexpected cost increases to the point that GW would be making a major loss at the original price- thats what led to the increase. To understand how that works- you need to understand that GW can't make all of their products at the factory.. paints, sprays, laser marker lights, zogging massive plastic boards... they all need produced outside the factory- usually by another company (paints by a paint company etc...)
So if the large scale plastic molder people have a make mess up- the costs increase and they then get passed to GW who sadly have to pass them to the customer- its not a case of them being greedy/stark raving mad/ jerks or what have you- its simply what needed to be done so it didn't go from a "quite expensive thing that alot of people think is a mistake" to a "massive cost incurred that sinks the company"


To just take a step back a second.... the entire prices of GW stuff arguement that keeps getting thrown about- GW products generally make very little "profit" after everything is taken into account- somewhere in the region of 7pence per pound
Now I know things in the states are slightly different...but
about a quater of the cost is tax in some shape or form, a quarter will go to the cost of materials, packaging, transport and that good stuff, a quarter will go to support staff and stores- the infastructure that sells and makes the products- and finally that last 1/4 is taken up by the actual production costs (designing, making and upkeep on the molds)
If a full run over the life time of a model is taken into account- that final 1/4 is aimed to give a 7 pence per pound profit if every single one of the sets is sold in the lifetime of the model... some models take an age to "breakeven" heck some never do (The chimera apparently broke even only a couple of years ago)

*mini rant about prices over*

I'm going to have to double post due to wandering off on a tangent there.....




Today we got our sample of the board-
Its nicer than the pictures suggest-
there are tons of little details scattered throughout the boards like skeletons, rubble, pathways, cliffs, skulls (yes skulls..... i know some people hate 'em- i kinda like these ones) The more we looked at each section- the more we noticed.
From the idea of a plastic kit- it is a BRILLIANT kit- its nicely sculpted, it does exactly what its meant to (played a sly little WFB game on it tonight after work) and I can't wait to get one for home.

Upon getting one- holding it (light but very sturdy...i stood on one of the pieces accidently- and i'm not a small guy) I've kinda realised what the board is about...


If you want a plain field of battle thats basically a sheet of green wood/styrofoam and don't care what it looks like- thats what your after.... go for it- this board probably isn't for you

If your the kind of person who wants to go out...buy some wood, add some brackets, cut a load of foam, and make a table thats a labor of love- by all means do so. Hopefully you'll have a table your proud of!
You may even add incredible details all over your board- have a truely modular set of scenery as part of the board- and that'd be awesome- it'd take you alot of time and it would be something excellent.

I don't have the time, nor the skills, nor the patience to do so
I can paint and assemble a model- but if you try to get me to do woodwork- even hammer a nail- and you may want to call an ambulence (which is why i was banned from taking part in the terrain building for gamesday when we took our lovely wooden bunkers)

Yes its an expensive piece of kit, yes it won't be everyones "must have"
but the idea of a table that looks awesome, I can paint in an afternoon, can pack away and hide in a cupboard- and heck take to my friends house on public transport while still taking my army in the other arm.... hell its perfect for me and something i'm willing to spend that money on.

mikhaila wrote: We take 'Codex: Display Case' very seriously

I love that book!

For those who have been all touchy feely with the board, I'd like to ask about the texture of the surface.

You see, I'm a stickler for basing (everything has to have the same technique in my armies) and I am wondering whether or not sand is going to be required to get the desired texture on the board, or do you think the sculpted texture is good enough to just be drybrushed with good results?

I think if you were gentle with the dry brushing i think you'd be good, but the texture isn't that deep IIRC so I think a little sand wouldn't go amiss. Only this is that this will probably reduce the durability of the surface.

Yarr. True dat.

Mind you, I think it should be okay. Get the PVA to the right consistency and it is pretty rugged. Is how the shop boards were done, and they've survived pretty well, all things considered.

Besides, this means you'll be able to have your Stunties Stomped in the Privacy of my house! Just imagine it, your shame limited to me and you!

Bugger, that is quite steep. I'm looking forward to seeing a sample and judging if it's up to it.

The unreleased Citadel gameboards can look really nice. But they cost way, way too much. It's to the point of absurdity. They're probably 2x too expensive. And even if they were $145, they'd be too much.











All the beauty shots make the product look great. But what you get out of the box is plain ol' plastic.

I didn't carefully read all the threads about profit margins, overhead etc. But $290 for 6 pieces of plain grey plastic? Come on.

There's so much that can be bought for $290. 29 movies. Or a video game system. Or 6 video game titles. A round trip ticket to many parts of the United States. It's a month of rent for a lot of places in the states. 2 months of dinner at a fast food restaurant. You can even find a used car at that price.

Don't get me wrong. Spending $300 on terrain can be totally worth it. But this set is plain grey plastic. No flock. No paint. No nothing. You're going to need to spend at least half a day, if not more, making it look somewhat decent.

Because for the cost of $290. This is what you really get:

Holy gak. The fething thing isn't painted?

LOLOLOLOL

Bignutter wrote:First of all cost wise- what i've heard is that the manufactoing peoples had unexpected cost increases to the point that GW would be making a major loss at the original price- thats what led to the increase. To understand how that works- you need to understand that GW can't make all of their products at the factory.. paints, sprays, laser marker lights, zogging massive plastic boards... they all need produced outside the factory- usually by another company (paints by a paint company etc...)
So if the large scale plastic molder people have a make mess up- the costs increase and they then get passed to GW who sadly have to pass them to the customer- its not a case of them being greedy/stark raving mad/ jerks or what have you- its simply what needed to be done so it didn't go from a "quite expensive thing that alot of people think is a mistake" to a "massive cost incurred that sinks the company"

FWIW, this is why you do a test run with your manufacturers.

Get a sample, get a price, sign a contract.

Oh did your costs go up and that's not in the contract? Well, deliver the 10,000 units at the agreed upon price or we'll see you in court.

GW let some idiot sign a contract where all increases in cost were passed to GW.

In Contract 101, that's a big fail.

Then you add in the damn thing isn't anything but a plastic piece of crap...and plastic is CHEAP...and holy crap.

By the way, I made a very nice set of boards AND terrain for about 50 bucks.

300? There isn't an emoticon suitable, so...this:



Equals this:

Classic Stelek, simply classic. LOL

PatoX wrote:The unreleased Citadel gameboards can look really nice. But they cost way, way too much. It's to the point of absurdity. They're probably 2x too expensive. And even if they were $145, they'd be too much.




All the beauty shots make the product look great. But what you get out of the box is plain ol' plastic.

I didn't carefully read all the threads about profit margins, overhead etc. But $290 for 6 pieces of plain grey plastic? Come on.

There's so much that can be bought for $290. 29 movies. Or a video game system. Or 6 video game titles. A round trip ticket to many parts of the United States. It's a month of rent for a lot of places in the states. 2 months of dinner at a fast food restaurant. You can even find a used car at that price.

Don't get me wrong. Spending $300 on terrain can be totally worth it. But this set is plain grey plastic. No flock. No paint. No nothing. You're going to need to spend at least half a day, if not more, making it look somewhat decent.

Because for the cost of $290. This is what you really get:

Sorry to flagellate the dead equine, but another point occurred to me beyond the (absurd) price;

One of the selling features that seems to (in GW's eyes) justify the price is that unlike an own-make board this is board is portable. But the sheets are 2'x2', meaning that's the size of the carrying case... which is fargin enormous. I have a Cooler Master HAF full tower case; this is a full tower mind you, made of mostly steel, and it's still lighter and smaller then the board and carrying case. The board case would be almost twice the size of a citadel miniatures carrying case and very heavy. It's portable in the same way that a folding massage table is portable (and roughly the same weight as some models, too).

Again, what were they thinking when they designed this? A lot of folks are citing the weight of plastic as a reason for the price having to be so high, and maybe so, but who in their right mind designs a game table like that? What market segment could they possibly hope to appeal to with this, instead of a cheaper, lighter (and thus more portable) board?

Sorry Buzzsaw, can you clarify something for me?

You write:

"this is a full tower mind you, made of mostly steel, and it's still lighter and smaller then the board and carrying case."

Have you actually picked up the board and carrying case to compare? Or is that just speculation?

You also write:

"But the sheets are 2'x2', meaning that's the size of the carrying case... which is fargin enormous."

Maybe it's just me, but six 2'x2' boards do not sound that big or heavy.

I'm not saying the board is worth the price tag, but before we say it's cumbersome/heavy/whatever, shouldn't we wait until it actually comes out?

yeah

PatoX wrote:

= win

I look forward to getting mine.
Panic...

Well it's on pre-order here in Oz for a whopping AUD$450!!! Huge-mega ripoff. God... with $450 you could make a gaming table for $150 and still have $300 leftover for two Imperial Sectors.

Anyway, with current exchange rates, it's actually cheaper here than in the US. Not by much mind you, and were you try and get it cheaper in the US by ordering it from Oz the shipping would kill any saving you made, but it's worth noting that, for once, us Aussies are getting something cheaper.

Of course, 'cheaper' in this context is like saying "I'm only going to use my shotgun on one of you kneecaps, not both."

BYE

Plastic is cheap....

plastic molding- especially a 2x2 square, to the same detail as a model is not



And as for size- it actually packs down deceptively small- the hills are desigened to stack on each other- and the result is a 2ft by 2ft by about 8 inch block that is easy to carry

and the thing is bloody light- we were (and probably shouldn't have been) tossing it about

Challenge to those who don't like it....

How would you make/buy a board that follows the benefits of the board....

High detail (there is tons of detail on the board itself- i'll try and nab a camera tommorow)
Modular terrain on the board
Strong pieces that can be switched around and secured
Light
Breaks down into a 2'x2'x8" block- including any terrain built into the board and carried....

can it be done any other way?
could it be done more affordable?

I think it can't- can it?

Zoned wrote:Sorry Buzzsaw, can you clarify something for me?

You write:

"this is a full tower mind you, made of mostly steel, and it's still lighter and smaller then the board and carrying case."

Have you actually picked up the board and carrying case to compare? Or is that just speculation?

True, this is a form of speculation, the speculation that GW is actually truthful on their page when they say;

US customers please note: The Citadel Realm of Battle Gaming Board weighs over 30lb and the price includes a $15 dollar shipping charge.

Zoned wrote:You also write:

"But the sheets are 2'x2', meaning that's the size of the carrying case... which is fargin enormous."

Maybe it's just me, but six 2'x2' boards do not sound that big or heavy.

I'm not saying the board is worth the price tag, but before we say it's cumbersome/heavy/whatever, shouldn't we wait until it actually comes out?

Err, we need to wait to actually see it to know how big a 2'x2' square is? According to Bignutter the case is 8" thick... again, comparing to my huge honkin PC case, we're talking about a carrying case that is taller, wider, heavier and about one inch thinner then a full tower PC case. At 30 pounds, we're talking about a case a heavy as 3.5 copies of Webster's Unabridged English Dictionary (about 8 pounds for the dictionary).

Here's an experiment: get a book bag, stack as many books into it as you can (or 3 of the aforementioned dictionaries if you work in a bookstore) and see how "portable" that is.

Bignutter wrote:Challenge to those who don't like it....

How would you make/buy a board that follows the benefits of the board....

High detail (there is tons of detail on the board itself- i'll try and nab a camera tommorow)
Modular terrain on the board
Strong pieces that can be switched around and secured
Light
Breaks down into a 2'x2'x8" block- including any terrain built into the board and carried....

can it be done any other way?
could it be done more affordable?

I think it can't- can it?

You are right bignutter, those crazy super-geniuses at GW have engineered something that is impossible to replicate! They could charge $25023 and I'd buy one. Thousands of years from now this gameboard will stand out to historians as the crowning technological achievement of the 21st century.

Why are you comparing this to a computer case again?

It's a portable 4x8 table broken into 8 pieces. DIY tables would have the same
dimensions if you took a 4x8 table and broke it into 8 pieces.

So the only real concern is the weight, but since it's a portable table made out
of sturdy plastic then I expect that it's going to be heavier than, say, non-sturdy plastic.

So then there's cost. Oh look, it costs less than your computer! Comparisons
like this don't really make sense. The main arguments in this thread deal with
whether the saved time and product are worth the spent money. To consider this, we'd
be better off comparing notes on how well DIY tables travel, paint up, etc.

olympia wrote:

Bignutter wrote:Challenge to those who don't like it....

How would you make/buy a board that follows the benefits of the board....

High detail (there is tons of detail on the board itself- i'll try and nab a camera tommorow)
Modular terrain on the board
Strong pieces that can be switched around and secured
Light
Breaks down into a 2'x2'x8" block- including any terrain built into the board and carried....

can it be done any other way?
could it be done more affordable?

I think it can't- can it?

You are right bignutter, those crazy super-geniuses at GW have engineered something that is impossible to replicate! They could charge $25023 and I'd buy one. Thousands of years from now this gameboard will stand out to historians as the crowning technological achievement of the 21st century.

The biggest thing going for it vs. DIY is the interlocking plastic and sturdiness. It's not enough
to get me at this price, but I don't really game in the house.

olympia wrote:

Bignutter wrote:Challenge to those who don't like it....

How would you make/buy a board that follows the benefits of the board....

High detail (there is tons of detail on the board itself- i'll try and nab a camera tommorow)
Modular terrain on the board
Strong pieces that can be switched around and secured
Light
Breaks down into a 2'x2'x8" block- including any terrain built into the board and carried....

can it be done any other way?
could it be done more affordable?

I think it can't- can it?

You are right bignutter, those crazy super-geniuses at GW have engineered something that is impossible to replicate! They could charge $25023 and I'd buy one. Thousands of years from now this gameboard will stand out to historians as the crowning technological achievement of the 21st century.

I think you missed the point there-
can you do those things for less than that price? It never said it was the crowning technological achievement or somesuch, but it is abit different from a slab of MDF with some sand glued on

I don't know if you guys realize but if you could order the board from the UK with the current amount the pound is worth it would be around 240.00 US dollars where as the US GW is 275.00 plus shipping. I wonder how much shipping would be from the UK?

malfred wrote:Why are you comparing this to a computer case again?

Err, 'cause I find it astonishing that a product at least partially sold on it's portability almost exactly matches the dimensions of something else so manifestly non-portable (size and weight are only off by a few percent)? If you have a particular brand of 28.25" flat screen tv's in mind that are 8 inches deep and weight 30 pounds, I'd be happy to use that as a reference.

malfred wrote:It's a portable 4x8 table broken into 8 pieces. DIY tables would have the same
dimensions if you took a 4x8 table and broke it into 8 pieces.

4x6

malfred wrote:So the only real concern is the weight, but since it's a portable table made out
of sturdy plastic then I expect that it's going to be heavier than, say, non-sturdy plastic.

So then there's cost. Oh look, it costs less than your computer! Comparisons
like this don't really make sense. The main arguments in this thread deal with
whether the saved time and product are worth the spent money. To consider this, we'd
be better off comparing notes on how well DIY tables travel, paint up, etc.

Well gorsh, other then the weight and price, it's perfect eh? (For the sake of continuity I'll assume someone has argued it was less then their PC, since I certainly didn't.)

My point has been to point out to prospective buyers (hopefully before they commit to a purchase) that if you're thinking of buying this item as a portable gaming solution, realize it's roughly as portable as a microwave oven.

My secondary point has been to ask why they didn't design this thing as a hollow plastic design (or molded Styrofoam or polyunsaturated fairy farts or whatnot) decreasing weight of plastic, and thus both decreasing cost and increasing portability?

For some reason I thought it was 4x8. Woops.

I made the PC cost vs. table cost as a snark on the PC portability vs. table portability.
Perhaps my humor was a bit misapplied, but when isn't it?

Hollow plastic? The idea is that it sits on top of a table and then you place minis and such
on top of it. I imagine the heft is there so that it's play worthy and not flimsy. Amera is
a company that makes cool plastic molded buildings, but I wouldn't want the same process
done for a table.

I don't know materials engineering, so I'm guessing that the cost would be far greater
if they could make he job with a lighter plastic that doesn't pass up sturdiness.

A portable microwave oven is probably more portable than the portable gas ovens
traveling gamers have been lugging around for ages.

malfred wrote:For some reason I thought it was 4x8. Woops.

I made the PC cost vs. table cost as a snark on the PC portability vs. table portability.
Perhaps my humor was a bit misapplied, but when isn't it?

Uh, I guess so...

malfred wrote:Hollow plastic? The idea is that it sits on top of a table and then you place minis and such
on top of it. I imagine the heft is there so that it's play worthy and not flimsy. Amera is
a company that makes cool plastic molded buildings, but I wouldn't want the same process
done for a table.

I don't know materials engineering, so I'm guessing that the cost would be far greater
if they could make he job with a lighter plastic that doesn't pass up sturdiness.

See, that's the line it seems people who are defending this product are taking, sturdiness. I just don't buy it: true, with that kind of weight it's not going to move around much, but at least in my group we play using loads of pieces of molded styrofoam. The stuff is durable, light and incredibly cheap.

I'm honestly asking, why did GW make the decisions they did here? Why make a product so expensive and so heavy instead of cheap and light? Does it really just come down to the perception that it has to weigh loads to be quality?

malfred wrote:A portable microwave oven is probably more portable than the portable gas ovens
traveling gamers have been lugging around for ages.

Is this more of the aforementioned humor, because I have a sudden idea for tailgating at the FLGS... and that screams Awesome!

Yeah, I made that suggestion to my friend.

"We should have Garage Con. Rent out parking spaces in a parking garage and just bust out the
tables for miniatures gaming. It'll be like those caught on tape videos, except with nerds
and minis instead of sex."

At $450 Australian, i won't be getting 1, it is way too expensive for me to afford. Shame though, it does look quite nice.