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Um, Shuma, I think you're off a bit here.

I know everybody likes to pretend they don't exist, but C: DA allowed SM to field a Bike force. Still does!

No, that book allows you to make a dark angels force. Dark angels don't get to do things like have tanks with their bikes. The ravenwing list while extra super dark angels fluffy is very constraining and is a horrible choice when you want to make a white scars or equivalent army.

So no, DA aren't much of an option in that regard.

1hadhq wrote:

BrookM wrote:For once I'd like a tank commander character that is NOT based on a fething nazi thank-you-very-much. They've already turned SS posterboy Michael Wittmann into a tank ace that comes with the Lucius pattern Baneblade and "Malmedy Massacre" Peiper has been given a cameo in the very first Imperial Armour softback book.

Besides, Peiper wasn't a tank commander.

so a tank ace should be based on a fething communist ?

Maybe put some acceptable names up here.

I'd put Russian aces up, but then our resident Pole would shout bloody murder for the mention of the words "Soviet", "Russia" or "Communism". Though on the plus side the Ruskies did have quite a few female tank aces. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

It might be best to steer clear of historical tank aces as the "politically correct" sides (France, Great Britain and the US) didn't exactly have the right equipment or survival rates to get noteworthy aces on the ground. Sadly most German aces are from the SS, not an organization known for good PR.

BrookM wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

BrookM wrote:For once I'd like a tank commander character that is NOT based on a fething nazi thank-you-very-much. They've already turned SS posterboy Michael Wittmann into a tank ace that comes with the Lucius pattern Baneblade and "Malmedy Massacre" Peiper has been given a cameo in the very first Imperial Armour softback book.

Besides, Peiper wasn't a tank commander.

so a tank ace should be based on a fething communist ?

Maybe put some acceptable names up here.

I'd put Russian aces up, but then our resident Pole would shout bloody murder for the mention of the words "Soviet", "Russia" or "Communism". Though on the plus side the Ruskies did have quite a few female tank aces. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

It might be best to steer clear of historical tank aces as the "politically correct" sides (France, Great Britain and the US) didn't exactly have the right equipment or survival rates to get noteworthy aces on the ground. Sadly most German aces are from the SS, not an organization known for good PR.

PR won't last as we know. Seems that poster boys(girls) of dictators are always contaminated.

I agree we need pure 40k fluff based aces.

The "upgrade" character for vehicles or a "mechanized" character for army composition could be free of "homeworlds" or another
"counts as" like space marines SC.

And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost? Are they baneblade sized? Land raider sized? Chimera sized?

Bike armies were previously available using traits.

Peiper would be a Special Character of Special Characters, and is a natural inclusion for 40k "grimdark". And historically, his record is in question - it only looks blemished because we supress what the Soviets did.

I think Wittmann would be a BS5 Tank Ace in a Vanquisher.

But if you don't use Nazis, your only other good choice is to use Soviet NKVD and Stasi types. Obviously, that's so much better...

What's wrong with a Special Character based off Patton, or Bradley

Love to see a tank commander with a riding crop, or better yet, a cavalry Stetson... which would also look good on a Valkyrie full of Stormtroopers, yelling, "Thraka don't surf."

Oh come on now, Patton was a loud-mouthed jerk (who is already partially represented by Usarker Creed, whose other half is Churchill), Bradley was a great commander, just one that preferred to stay in the background.

And John; Wittmann has already been 40k-fied by FW as Maximilian Weissmann, Baneblade ace. As for Peiper, the man was SS, more than enough reason to give him a wide berth.

What next? Otto Skorzeny? Ooh, wait! Joseph Mengele! Now that was a jolly chap. [/sarcasm]

@Ubermosh: You can only yell that when your Valkyrie has a pair of surfboards stashed somewhere and the commander has a mug of coffee handy

Necros wrote:And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost? Are they baneblade sized? Land raider sized? Chimera sized?

I've heard we should expect it priced as a land raider, but we'll never really know till it comes out.

I think most of the people in here have reached the point I have with guard. We are tired of them sucking so bad. I refuse to play them until we get a new dex. Looksl ike its ork time.

BrookM wrote:And John; Wittmann has already been 40k-fied by FW as Maximilian Weissmann, Baneblade ace.

As for Peiper, the man was SS, more than enough reason to give him a wide berth.

What next? Otto Skorzeny? Ooh, wait! Joseph Mengele! Now that was a jolly chap.

I guess a Baneblade is a Tiger 1 then? OK.

Peiper was Waffen-SS. Minor difference.

Otto was denazified, so he's not interesting.

However, WRT a Nazi a notorious as Mengele, you give GW far too little credit. If you played Fantasy, you'd know that Mengele has already been glorified as someone that practically everybody in the Old World can take via Dogs of War:

Mengil Manhide is the sadistic, cannibalistic leader of a vicious group of Dark Elves known throughout the Old World as the Manflayers. They travel unseen across the lands under the cover of darkness, selling their savage skills to the highest bidder and adorning themselves with the flayed flesh of those they slaughter in battle.

That's right, Mengil and his team skin their victims and wear their skins as a trophies.

Even amongst the Dark Elves of Naggaroth, a nation renowned for its cruelty, ruthlessness and sadistic tendencies, Mengil of Clar Karond is particularly noted for his bloodthirsty nature. Such is his cunning and his gleefully murderous behaviour that many amongst the Dark Elves regard him as an unhinged killer. While most Dark Elves would happily slit the throat of any who got in their way in order to further their own political aims or gain more personal power so long as they could get away with it, Mengil kills for the fun of it, without care or thought of the consequences. On more than one occasion, he has slain allies merely on a whim, and many believe he has only a tenuous grip on his sanity. He is seen as dangerously unpredictable, and regarded with suspicion and distrust by other Dark Elves.

Yup, a crazy murderer among the craziest murderers in the Old World.

In one such test, Kraal released a human captive, a powerful young Norseman, into the Black Forests outside of the dark city, giving the warrior weapons and a shield. The young Mengil was sent to hunt this human, and only once he returned with evidence of the kill would he be allowed back into the city. Through the icy wilderness Mengil tracked his quarry, eventually coming face to face with the Norseman. His speed and skill with the blade was enough to overcome his larger and more powerful foe, and he rejoiced in the thrill of the kill, smeared blood across his face and he drank deeply from the powerful heart of his fallen enemy, before skinning the Norseman and eating his flesh. While in the wilds, he sharpened his teeth to points, making him look particularly fearsome. Mengil wore the bloodied skin as a cloak as he walked back into Clar Karond, earning him the respect of his father and the honorific title ‘Manhide’.

Mengil was forced to fight for his life against his brethren, killing two of his murderous siblings in one night. He ripped the skin from their bodies, and had their bloodied, skinless corpses delivered to his one remaining brother as a warning.

Lovely, eh?

So really, all we have left is Himmler and Goebbels.

Joseph Mengele was a doctor, Göring was a former pilot and Himmler and Goebbels never really made it onto any battlefield. And besides, Mengele really was a satan in human disguise, the experiments he put human beings through most of us can´t even imagine.

If you are looking for a good Panzer commander go for Erwin Rommel (aka Desert Fox/ Wüstenfuchs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel

He was extremly good in his job and was not a real friend of the Nazis, so it should be not that problematic using him.

Besides, I really look forwar to getting my Valks a little bit cheaper than the FW ones.

How about Oddball from Kelly's Heroes as a special character tank commander?

Mengele is Fabius Bile, is he not? With a good amount of Doctor Moreau thrown in as well?


Besides, nazis aren't too riske for this game. Horus was satan and was called such in the fiction by several. The white scars are all taken from the mongol khans, who if history is correct loved the raping and pillaging. One of the games races exists to torture and rape people, and do little else. Honestly all that silly naziesque characters would serve to do is make the game more interesting for WW2 nuts. The war ended 54 years ago, I think the wounds have had time to heal.

Unless your jewish and were alive back then. They might still hold a grudge but otherwise I agree

Necros wrote:And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost?

£35.

reds8n wrote:

Necros wrote:And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost?

£35.

Seriously?

I'm so going to make Airborne Guard..

No, that book allows you to make a dark angels force. Dark angels don't get to do things like have tanks with their bikes. The ravenwing list while extra super dark angels fluffy is very constraining and is a horrible choice when you want to make a white scars or equivalent army.

So no, DA aren't much of an option in that regard.

What do you mean they don't get to have tanks with their bikes? Not since the new codex. Infact I know of a couple folks who used DA to make their White Scars, to include razorback tacticals, predators, etc.

Now on topic, that is a really really thin release if true. Utterly disappointing.

A slight side trip.

Why is it that Khan enables you to field a bike force? Does he in some way count as a Space Marine Captain on bike? And where does it says so?

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'll admit it's a rather thin release - and I doubt the Codex itself will make up for that, considering that all our armies are going to require Special Characters to work as they once did without them - but the models that are coming could be quite good.

You're wrong. You're just wrong. Prickilingly, annoyingly, repeatedly wrong.

This is going to be fun.

The special character editions in every codex they have been used in have been to expand upon what was previously possible. You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn),

Unless you used the traits in the 4th edition codex, the old DA codex, or the White Scars Index Astartes list from 3rd edition.

you could not do a bike ork force before (wazdakka),

Outside of Kult of Speed or the Klan rules for Evil Suns...

you could not do a nob special force before (warboss),

You could get a Nob bodyguard for each warboss as dedicated retinue, and the goffs could take skarboys.

you could not do a dreadnaut special force before (big mek),

This one is true. Of course, Death Skulls could take a looted vehicles as a troop, so Orks had Leman Russ as a troops choice...

you could not do a marine honor guard force before (calgar),

Again, yes, you could not include more than 2 honor guards in an army before the new rules for Calgar. That's an unlocked option that will allow for all kinds of incredible army builds.

you couldn't do an elite space marine gunline force before (pedro),

You're kidding, right? I mean, there were some pretty obscure rules for building elite shooty marine armies before, but most people didn't play where the 4th edition Space Marine codex was legal. Oh wait....

Seriously, 6 man las/plas, duel AC termie squads, tornados, and cheap librarians made for some fun little armies.

you couldn't do a fleeting marine force before (shrike).

This one is true. It came at the expense of the loss of the original Shrike's wing, but Shrikes rules are new.

If you wanted to do anything similar you would either have to use a hard to get, bad, and outdated codex like speedfreeks or salamanders, and frankly you would still complain. Saying the main books are all just too generic.

I get that you don't like HBMC's endless cynicism, and you've apparently taken it upon yourself to respond to every one of his posts with zeal, pointing out his negativity. This of course makes you even more negative and bitter, except you're not funny when you do it, while he often is. HBMC comes off like a cranky old curmudgeon that is amusing, you come off like a guy with some irrational ax to grind.

smart_alex wrote:I think most of the people in here have reached the point I have with guard. We are tired of them sucking so bad. I refuse to play them until we get a new dex. Looksl ike its ork time.

Hehehehehee, yeah, people keep telling me how bad IG suck.......
Players in my club are worried about what's gonna happen when I get a new codex, seeing as how I do rather well with the current IG. Just took Best General in our Winter Escalation League.

Polonius wrote:

you couldn't do a fleeting marine force before (shrike).

This one is true. It came at the expense of the loss of the original Shrike's wing, but Shrikes rules are new.

I hate people who play this build... such unforgivable cheese. Maybe there should be another thread titled: space marines win because the herohammer codex writers are boneheads. The herohammer boneheads might allow an all leamen russ build but it won't even compare to 1/2 the builds you have just described unless tanks can also fight in melee w/ initiative 6.

Steelmage99 wrote:A slight side trip.

Why is it that Khan enables you to field a bike force? Does he in some way count as a Space Marine Captain on bike? And where does it says so?

SM codex page 130

kungfuhustler wrote:I hate people who play this build... such unforgivable cheese. Maybe there should be another thread titled: space marines win because the herohammer codex writers are boneheads. The herohammer boneheads might allow an all leamen russ build but it won't even compare to 1/2 the builds you have just described unless tanks can also fight in melee w/ initiative 6.

Can't see such unreliable d6 move as
Maybe we need a thread: Why do I need to complain about SM if I play IG

1hadhq wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:A slight side trip.

Why is it that Khan enables you to field a bike force? Does he in some way count as a Space Marine Captain on bike? And where does it says so?

SM codex page 130

Nice oversight on my behalf. Thank you.

You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn)

What you mean like a little trait known as Sift as the Wind? That allowed you to take Bike Squads of at least 5 models as troops or elites? That totally doesn't sound like a bike for ce does it? DOES IT??!?!

See: thread title

Ratbarf wrote:

You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn)

What you mean like a little trait known as Sift as the Wind? That allowed you to take Bike Squads of at least 5 models as troops or elites? That totally doesn't sound like a bike for ce does it? DOES IT??!?!

Yeah, I didn't recall the bike force trait. My mistake.

Unless you used the traits in the 4th edition codex, the old DA codex, or the White Scars Index Astartes list from 3rd edition.

The only thing that could be buildable through traits was the bike force which I missed entirely. The old DA codex isn't useful to anyone any more and other than being hilariously out of date and near impossible to get ahold of outside of pdf form the index astartes articles are also not useful to anyone.

utside of Kult of Speed or the Klan rules for Evil Suns...

Which have been illegal ever since the armageddon book became illegal (and difficult to find in stores well before that). Unless I'm mistaken here. It was a third edition release that went away a while ago wasn't it?

You could get a Nob bodyguard for each warboss as dedicated retinue, and the goffs could take skarboys.

Didn't goffs taking skarboyz require ghazgull before?

This one is true. Of course, Death Skulls could take a looted vehicles as a troop, so Orks had Leman Russ as a troops choice...

And most other imperial vehicles. Though they were all hindered by high points, bad rules, and the orks terrible BS. The LR and the basilisk were really the only ones at all worth taking. Giving a battlewagon a boomgun gives it the same armor values and weaponry as a leman russ now, so that option is still around, you just need to convert up a LR.

Again, yes, you could not include more than 2 honor guards in an army before the new rules for Calgar. That's an unlocked option that will allow for all kinds of incredible army builds.

Who cares how good the army builds are, it's fluffy and cool. Its an extra set of options that wasn't around before.

Seriously, 6 man las/plas, duel AC termie squads, tornados, and cheap librarians made for some fun little armies.

Thats just a space marine force. Not any sort of elite first company detachment.

I get that you don't like HBMC's endless cynicism, and you've apparently taken it upon yourself to respond to every one of his posts with zeal, pointing out his negativity. This of course makes you even more negative and bitter, except you're not funny when you do it, while he often is. HBMC comes off like a cranky old curmudgeon that is amusing, you come off like a guy with some irrational ax to grind.

Irrationality is fun when its directed at irrationality. It's like two crazy people hitting each other with fish.

Yay for staying on topic!

Valks=Yes

Storms made better= Yes

Overwatch=Yes

KP fix for IG=Yes, please

Fortification rule=yes

Ratlins and Ogryn = Replace with cybernetically enhanced humans(no enhanced does not=SM, but on the other hand a joint force list would be nice)