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Actually he was talking about Hardened Veterans but what the heck..

BrookM wrote:Actually he was talking about Hardened Veterans but what the heck..

Yeah, I was. Could be good tying up enemy assault units, although if you mathhammer it flatter than a pancake I'm sure you'd find that it wasn't the most practical way to go about it.

I know. And I was merely commenting that doesn't work with Veterans.

Is it the new 10 Guardsman box set?

F$ck mathhammer, have fun for a change.

Or more in line with what people tell you to field: be different!

JohnHwangDD wrote:I know. And I was merely commenting that doesn't work with Veterans.

Why doesn't it work? I'm interested to know and have an open mind.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

And in this instance, DD is like a big ol' battering ram.

BYE

Shotgun vets would be pretty useful if they were accompanied by grav shutes, shotguns, and a nice points reduction. My shotty SM scouts do fairly well for themselves with nothing but their shotguns and IDENTICAL GIANT MANFACES.

Shotgun vets could be a fairly competent counterassault unit, especially if they get to pack multiple flamers with those shotguns. Remember, guard doesn't counterassault by assault, thing counterassault by shooting you more.

shotgun vets look cool and that is it.

spacemarine scouts with shotguns look cool and that is it.

Vets either drop and blast you with melta or plasma and that is pretty much it. I have also had success running them in squads of 10 with 3 plasma and a lascannon.

I happen to like Shotgun vets. Those, and a set of Meltas or Flamers, with a nice hiden PF on the squad serg, and you have a good way of doing significent damage as you chanrge in. I have always seen my Vets as expendable. they get close to the enemy, they are very likly to die, so they need to pick what target they're going to maul.

captain.gordino wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I know. And I was merely commenting that doesn't work with Veterans.

Why doesn't it work? I'm interested to know and have an open mind.

It doesn't work because the math says it doesn't.

Let's take an example against 20 Orks - Shoota Boyz: WS4 S3 T4 I2 A2 Sv6+ - w/ mandatory PK Nob. This is roughly comparable points-wise to 10 Arbites and full-kit Avenger squad.

Your Arbites with PF Proctor:
- shoot 18, hit 12, wound 6, kill 5.
- assault 18, hit 9, wound 3, kill 2.5 Boyz
- 12 Boyz swing 24, hit 16, wound 8, kill 4 Arbites...
at this point, the Orks are up 1.5 kills in HtH, so the PFs don't matter - the Arbites will surely lose the fight, and quite possibly be run down being only I3 vs I2 Orks.

And this was a "best case" scenario with a full squad of Arbites against Shoota Boyz. Slugga boyz would have killed a couple more in HtH, guaranteeing things.


Eldar Avengers, OTOH:
- Bladestorm 27, hit 18, kill 9!!
- Exarch PW 3, hit 2, kill 1
- attack 18, hit 9, would 3, kill 2.5 Boyz
- 7 Boyz swing 7, hit 4, wound 2 kill 1 Avenger (Defend!!)
- Nob swings 2 hits 1 kills 0.5 Avenger
8+ Avengers win combat, with I6 to easily run down 7 or 8 I2 Boyz if they break. If they don't, the Eldar have the PW, WS&I, and Defend to their advantage to minimize return strikes, along with the Shimmershield to limit PF hits back.

That is why I'm saying you have the roles confused. Veterans with Assault weapons are simply not a good choice for actually Assaulting, whereas generalist Eldar Avengers can pull it off.

Veterans with Meltas or Plasma, OTOH, are very good at popping tanks or frying stuff.

Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

BrookM wrote:Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

*high five*

I have heard from my inside sources once again, and can report the following two bits of information:

1. Plastic Valkyrie - Confirmed.
2. Plastic Storm Troopers - Not confirmed.

BYE

Plastic Valkyrie = Happy dance.

Also, time to get my lootin' hat on.

Glad to hear that the higher ups have given a green light to a plastic Valkyrie kit, last what I heard during the Frenzy was that the kit had been designed and presented to the bean counters, who were still debating whether or not the kit would be worth producing.

Biggest question now of course is when can we expect the plastic Valkyrie? March or May?

Guard Codex. It'll be the big release. Personally I'm hugley excited about that. 6 Valks transporting 6 full squads of Karskin. Apoc just got a whole lot more fun, and our big Apoc scenario - Thunderhawk Down - just got a whole lot easier (and cheaper!)!!!

BYE

BrookM wrote:Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

The math simply shows that, in the same Alpha-Striker role, Dire Avengers should win combat, whereas Storms/Vets should lose.

You can field whatever you like, and maybe you'll get lucky. But over several games, those Storms / Vets with shotguns will be a poor choice. However, if you insist to play that sort of tactical game, then you should be playing Eldar, instead.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrookM wrote:Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

The math simply shows that, in the same Alpha-Striker role, Dire Avengers should win combat, whereas Storms/Vets should lose.

Funny how neither unit is particularly effective in that role regardless. Both are reletively high point value canon fodder with very situational uses outside of just being slightly superior then their basic troop cousins. The vets may not be as good in that specific role, but they have a massive gunline backing them up, tipping the scales just far enough into their favour without seriously hindering the lines ability to shoot more threatening objects. With the eldar you're probably going to have to redirect one of your high cost death dealing supersquads in a birdtank if you need that tiny extra edge, thus creating a level of redundancy. Guard units are designed to go in supported, it's unlikely that vet squad would ever attempt to bring down the orks alone whereas the dire avengers would almost be required too.

My inside sources have confirmed the plastic storm troopers for me and he's usually really good about it and hasn't missed once in the last 8 years on info he's "leaked" to me.

And as for the vets i love the shotgun lugging nut jobs. Hidden pf's w/2 meltas, 1 flamer and all shotguns have taken down their points if not double almost every game so I love them!

I know that 5 man suicide melta squads is the most effective usage of Vets, but I can not bring myself to use Vets in that way :( For some reason the fluff nutter inside me says Vets do not do suicide squads (thus why they are vets, they also do not use plasma).

Vets are the only way IG can get a hidden PF in our army Not cost effective at all, but fun as hell to use! And they can produce some surprising results (eg. kill stuff in assault).

hulksmash wrote:My inside sources

H.B.M.C. wrote:My inside sources

Everyone_Else wrote:My inside sources

I'm liking the sound of these inside sources. Where can I get one? Have they released them in plastic or are they only metal?

Wait, let me guess; they're only available in metal right now but your inside source has revealed that they will be available in plastic, right?

captain.gordino wrote:Have they released them in plastic or are they only metal?

Resin. They're prone to miscasts. Really annoying.

But look on the bright side; I could be hoarding the information and only letting people know that I knew something, rather than what I know.

BYE

I think Veterans also see a lot of use with 3 plasma guns and a heavy weapon, as I know some good players use it to a great effect. But yes, they'll prolly get hit by the nerf bat.

Kuato is an inside source! Inside a guy's tummy anyway..

Ork wrote:I think Veterans also see a lot of use with 3 plasma guns and a heavy weapon, as I know some good players use it to a great effect. But yes, they'll prolly get hit by the nerf bat.

Something along the lines of "1 Special weapon at 5 men, 3 and a Heavy Weapon at 10 men". And they'll be 10 points each and lose Infiltration.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ork wrote:I think Veterans also see a lot of use with 3 plasma guns and a heavy weapon, as I know some good players use it to a great effect. But yes, they'll prolly get hit by the nerf bat.

Something along the lines of "1 Special weapon at 5 men, 3 and a Heavy Weapon at 10 men". And they'll be 10 points each and lose Infiltration.

BYE

Well I don't really care about infiltration if I can Deep Strike, but if I have to take Lord General Commander Castellan Comissar Marneus Deepstrikeus to be able to Deep strike, that's going to suck.

But that's the future of Herohammer 40k! You need to tack on named characters if you want those specific abilities. I just hope they leave Gaunt out, I'm not looking forward to an army of Woobies that are always oh-so saaaaaaaad. spankers.

You can probably expect the stock drop trooper character, infiltration character, mechanized character and some sort of fancy git that allows for something completely new and not seen before.

Or we might still be getting mutable platoons where you need to upgrade the whole damn thing if you want to deep-strike those attached veterans.

I think vets should be more like the last chancers, where everyone can take something if they want, just drop the whole pay to gain the option of paying again for something. I think it'd be more interesting to run with the idea that a veteran squad is effectively the remnants of a platoon that went through the grinder. 50 went in 10 came out, and those 10 are carrying all the guns. Possibly with a Lt. still leading them, the unit becomes more distinct than stormtroopers.