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I have some sympathy.

Coming from an old school background, when I was in a club we just never played with unpainted figures. It wasn't an elitist thing, it wasn't a rule, we just kinda didn't do it. It was a social convention.

When we started a new period or scale, we painted enough figures to play a starter size game before we played a game.

The "hobby" means different things to different people, obviously. Just look through this thread and we should all be able to agree on that.

My take is like many others: I'd rather play a game against someone with PPP, than silver/gray/primed/partly assembled metal or plastic.

Sure, a lot of the PPP out there isn't "studio quality". Whenever I look at about any CaoR PPP fig from Rackham up-close, I have a very strong urge to vomit. But, they all look fairly decent when viewing them at arm's length, and for a lot of gamers, buying PPP is about as close to having a painted army as they'll ever get.

Companies like GW have a simple primary goal - to make money. I would bet a lot of that stuff that if GW saw money bags in their eyes by switching to PPP - I think they'd do it in a heartbeat. All the talk of "The GW Hobby" and such is nonsensical. If they had a good notion that their overall bottom-line would increase by making such a change, they'd do it, and they'd continue to market it as a "GW Hobby" regardless.

Being worried about 'non hobbyists' invading the community if PPP were offered - I think that fear is quite overblown. Many of those same people already enjoy the game - with unpainted plastic and metal.

Personally, I understand why folks would want PPP figs. Someone mentioned WHFB and horde armies - as a Skaven player, I admit I'd buy a ton of PPP clanrats if they were available.

I think one day it would be cool if we had both PPP and unpainted to choose from, so that all of us could have a choice. I really don't see how it could be too terrible if GW offered some limited number of PPP figs (basic grunts, maybe even just 1 from each army). It'd be even cooler if they offered this, while at the same time still offering the unpainted fare we're used to, for the purists to work with if they feel painting-over PPPs is not viable.

I would not like to see PPP totally replace our currently available product-lines, rather, I'd love to see them as options. It'd be cool if GW could cater to more people - not just to one select group of people. It just seems like there should be a way to satisfy a wider range of customers.

Just my 2 coppers, tho.

I think the fear mostly stems from the fact that once a company goes the PPP route, they won't also offer the 'traditional' unpainted stuff anymore.

Too many SKU's, a division of resources, etc.

For people who also see wargaming as a hobby including building, converting and painting, this is a scary 'fact'.

Whether or not it would actually happen like that, who knows?

The Rackham example is particularly sobering though...

Tazok wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote:

In my experience the majority of people that don't take the time to paint their armies aren't the best players to play against. Yes there are exceptions to this, but I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

Well, what a load of BS

redstripe wrote:
I just had to add that while I'm very interested in knowing what Shuma's price per model painting service is, his intensely annoying signature has forced me to block content from flickr.

How does one go about blocking content from flickr.?. I hate it too..

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

don't think it is you. playing against a painted army is great - playing against a tactically savvy player is the best regardless of pain, primer or color.

Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Apparently. Then again, gluing coins to the bottom of a base is against the law and I've seen several people to that, too.

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

I dont know but I think its you, whats wrong if he chooses to carefully select who and what he plays with?
Armies are part of the game and so are players... armies arent nothing without players and players cant play without armies ( well they can but its anoter game) I dont see this kind of comments going anywere is like just labeling peoples preferences...

For example imagine I'm a fluff nut and just want to play armies that fit my fluff... whats wrong with that if your just having fun?
If I cant have fun playing against proxies , unpainted stuff etc... what wrong about avoiding to do so?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Yeah theres a law its called common sense.

NAVARRO wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Yeah theres a law its called common sense.

agreed. anyone tried over painting those abomination of pre-painted wolfen? Not pretty.

fullheadofhair wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Yeah theres a law its called common sense.

agreed. anyone tried over painting those abomination of pre-painted wolfen? Not pretty.

It worked well for some gorillas I repainted. The sadness of the pre-painted wolfen is
that they simply did not look as good as the original metals.

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo the worst idea ever prepantied soldiery i would explode

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

What would you rather see in a battle report?

This:


Or this:


My friends back north used to run linked campaigns and do full battle reports. We were more telling a story than playing a game. The paint jobs made the photos more immersive and transportative. It's the difference between playing a game and being a hobbyist.

Out of curiosity does this fit the idea of a "player" army?



I'm not saying its equal to prepainted or even comparing both, just curious if this fit into " dont care about kind of armies" issue.

Navarro, you win a bite of my bacon/chocolate bar here. Please come to Pennsylvania at your earliest convenience to collect.

I think there is a good point to be made that really BOTH sides are important, it just is a question of which is more important to you.

However, it is obvious that a well painted army is better than grey plastic/primer, and a good opponant (buddy, tactical genius, whatever) is superior to that annoying guy you are only playing against because no one else showed up to the store.

Personally, I feel guilty playing with proxies or unpainted models, but I don't even say anything if my opponant wants to. Well, ok I have threatened to steal Evan's primer grey rhinos and replace them with little camarro's, but that was all in good fun.
On the other hand, I have decided to just not play against certain people because they were miserable whether they won or lost.

Personally, if I was 100% certain that prepainted models would not decrease availability or raise the price of regular plastics etc., I would be down with it. While I really like chatting with someone about their painting and converting, and exchanging tips and tricks, I am not less likely to do that with a PPP as opposed to a primered marine. Both are equally good, or bad, in that regard.

I definitely agree it is more fun for me to play a game with painted miniatures. That said, I could care less who painted them.

I also play against unpainted stuff all the time, and still have a good time.

I would love pre-painted 40K stuff.

I have painted countless armies over the last dozen years or so I have played 40K. I will continue to paint more. I would love to have some pre-painted though. I have so many "In-progress" armies, that it will take years to paint them. With a toddler and baby on the way, my time to paint becomes less and less.

Ideally, at least in my mind. Games Workshop would continue with the build/paint your own, and have a complete line of the assembled/painted models to go along side of them. That way, everyone wins.

If Rackham can put out a pretty good selection of Pre Paints out... You know GW could really get that ball rolling the right direction.

Valhallan42nd wrote:
What would you rather see in a battle report?

This:


Or this:


My friends back north used to run linked campaigns and do full battle reports. We were more telling a story than playing a game. The paint jobs made the photos more immersive and transportative. It's the difference between playing a game and being a hobbyist.

I never said I didn't prefer painted models over unpainted(in fact, that's why I support prepainted!). My point, which you missed, was that I would rather play a game against a fun opponent sans painted army that play TFG with a painted army worthy of a museum display. My playing the game and having a good time depends on the player, NOT the whether the army is painted or not.

And again, playing the game is being a hobbyist, there is no difference unless playing the game is your occupation(look up the definition of a hobby).

Valhallan42nd wrote:
What would you rather see in a battle report?

In a battle report? Obviously the first pic (gorgeous titan btw). In a game I was playing? Well, it depends... I'd rather play the army in the second pic if it was played by a skilled tactician and congenial chap over the army in the first pic if it was played by an immature kid whose daddy had plenty of cash to shell out to a painting service... and I'm speaking from experience here.

The moral is playing against a painted army doesn't always equate to a better game experience.

ubermosher wrote: The moral is playing against a painted army doesn't always equate to a better game experience.

Ceteris Paribus, playing against a painted army is always better than playing against an unpainted army. Painting an army to a table top standard is really not that difficult. Sure it takes time, but that's what hobbies are all about, spending your free time pursuing the hobby (whatever it is). Wargaming is a social hobby, by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent, especially if they took the time to paint their army.

Tazok wrote:playing against a painted army is always better than playing against an unpainted army. Painting an army to a table top standard is really not that difficult. Sure it takes time, but that's what hobbies are all about, spending your free time pursuing the hobby (whatever it is). Wargaming is a social hobby, by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent, especially if they took the time to paint their army.

Not always true and complete opinion.

Yes, it's opinion (painting versus nonpainting can only be opinion--it's a subjective subject). Just a few posts ago you agreed that, "I definitely agree it is more fun for me to play a game with painted miniatures." You even went on to say that you'd painted several armies (countless), so how hard can it be to paint an army if you've painted so many?

And what's not true? How can an opinion be false? You might think differently but that doesn't make mine or anyone else's opinion not true.

methoderik wrote:

Tazok wrote:playing against a painted army is always better than playing against an unpainted army. Painting an army to a table top standard is really not that difficult. Sure it takes time, but that's what hobbies are all about, spending your free time pursuing the hobby (whatever it is). Wargaming is a social hobby, by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent, especially if they took the time to paint their army.

Not always true and complete opinion.

But no more or less of an opinion than the folks who prefer to play against 'better players' with unpainted armies. Different strokes, and all that stuff.

For some folks, this hobby is primarily a social/intellectual outlet. For others, it's primarily an aesthetic one. And for others, it's a bit of both. Is it really possible to say any of those ways of thinking are 'less valid'?

To each their own, and all that.

Personally, if I am investing my free time into this enterprise, I prefer BOTH. I prefer an opponent that takes the hobby (as a whole) seriously enough that he'll assemble and at least attempt to use painted materials. Additionally, I prefer an opponent whose attitude I can accept. If I can't have both from a perspective opponent, that doesn't mean I'd brush them off or ignore them, but I will continue to keep my eye out for other players who are more like-minded.

I think it's natural for us to do this. I'd wager most of us have a group or number of particular opponents we gravitate towards, and it may not even be selection on a conscious level.

Just my 2 coppers, tho.

I love the cardboard cutouts!

Tazok wrote:Yes, it's opinion (painting versus nonpainting can only be opinion--it's a subjective subject). Just a few posts ago you agreed that, "I definitely agree it is more fun for me to play a game with painted miniatures." You even went on to say that you'd painted several armies (countless), so how hard can it be to paint an army if you've painted so many?

And what's not true? How can an opinion be false? You might think differently but that doesn't make mine or anyone else's opinion not true.

You said:

Tazok wrote:by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent

So I said:

methoderik wrote:Not always true and complete opinion.

Really do you need an explanation?

Edit to answer your question about painting. Also in my previous post I explained how in Fatherhood I have seen a decrease in the time I can spend painting. So, how hard could it be to paint an army, well... pretty hard.

I only play 40k with my friends. I'll play regardless of what their army looks like, painted, proxied, bare metal, whatever. The game is much more fun, however, when both sides are painted.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I love the cardboard cutouts!

There's an actual genre of wargaming with printed paper standup troop markers.

It's a pretty good way to play linear formation games like 18th century warfare. You can print up your own troops really quickly and cheaply.

http://www.juniorgeneral.org/donated/2008/dec26/french1.png

Back in the day, GW had lots of games that started with cardboard cutouts.

It just brought back some thoughts of the good old days.

Looking back the only cardboard pieces I miss are the spacehulk and warhammer quest floor tiles.

Free bacon/chocolate bar? I'm stuffed with Cristhmas, mother's Bday and today new year cakes but I can make room for some more candy

This party season is a huge marathon of sugar stuffing here