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BoxANT wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Does it have to be Loyalist Termies and Genestealers?

They should put other races into the game too. Orks and Chaos Marines can usually be found in Space Hulks as well.

I think it is fairly certain that the game will feature Termies vs Genes, it's the classic matchup and people like seeing it


However, i really hope they include rules for other races. I would *love* to see some Guardsmen fighting off Genes or even Orks

Well I'm not saying it shouldn't be Termies and Genesneakers, I meant to ask if it has to be just those two.

Lol, why not add to the fun by throwing a Commissar in there too?

-

Greenlight1107 wrote:Wehrkind: I have to agree with you regarding some of the prepainted buildings VS prepainted mini's There is a company out there that sells pre-painted terrain it is a German Co. but I can't think of the name right now I'll have to get back with you on that, but they have really nice prepainted terrain that is very reasonable in price.

Is it ESLO you are thinking of Greenlight?

http://www.gelaendestuecke.de/startnave.htm

BrookM wrote:
Only downside: lasguns aren't as cool as brass-ejecting machine guns.

Says you!

Personally, I think lasguns are the cow's tits!

I'm with BrookM on this one- i'm all about the dakkadakka, not so much the pewpew.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:Well, he is following a trend no?

Was that directed at me, or are you just trying to be cute?

sorry, I forgot about t his thread.. It was a comment about Green following a trend of stating things and not backing them up..

so, not directed at you, but in regards to what you said, and yes, I was trying to be cute..

BoxANT wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Does it have to be Loyalist Termies and Genestealers?

They should put other races into the game too. Orks and Chaos Marines can usually be found in Space Hulks as well.

I think it is fairly certain that the game will feature Termies vs Genes, it's the classic matchup and people like seeing it


However, i really hope they include rules for other races. I would *love* to see some Guardsmen fighting off Genes or even Orks

I think t most realistic hope is just that the game rules have enough 'design space' that Guard, Cultists, Daemons, whatever can be added without requiring the system be completely reworked. Essentially, hopefully the designers keep in mind that Geneswipers* and Terminators are essentially 'apex predators' of the setting and there's a lot of room below them to potentially explore.

*Everyone seems to be having fun with 'Genestealer' in the thread, so I thought I'd join the fun.

Balance wrote:I think t most realistic hope is just that the game rules have enough 'design space' that Guard, Cultists, Daemons, whatever can be added without requiring the system be completely reworked.

Seconded!

If GW can just use # points of Elites, that would be awesome.

Lets also hope it has the flexibility to allow variant chapters, its been a looong time since my wolves set foot on a hulk and we're dead keen.

I agree. How well GW continues to support this edition after its release hinges on a good number of people playing it. That requires variation to the game to drive continued interest, which requires more than two factions for player to trade off between.

I have to say I disagree.

The game ought to be a tight, fast-playing, standalone wargame in a box, not just an expansion for 40K.

Tight and fast-playing limits the possibilities for adding extra troops IMO. In the original rules, it was easy to see how to add ordinary SMs.

The key is make enough wiggle room in the core rules which allow other options.

For example, the original had 2D6, roll of a 6 takes out the bad guy... you down grade that for normal marines to rolling a single D6... Same rule, same mechanic but with wiggle room...

Not however so clear how you'd create so much wiggle room you can fit both Terminators and guardsmen in the same smooth simple system without adding complexity.

Then again, if you want to put ANYTHING in there, just use the forgeworld rules from The Anphelion Project.

aka_mythos wrote:That requires variation to the game to drive continued interest, which requires more than two factions for player to trade off between

'Required' eh?

I guess the twenty years of a faithful fan base is not relevant to whats 'required'.

The more I see people wishlisting about "I want orks and I want chaos and I not only want space marines, but I want my own little special rules for my special variant chapter" the more I hope GW just releases just the base game (termies and stealers) and calls it good.

They can never hope to make the spoiled 40K fanbase happy with anything other than 40K scaled down to the size of Space Hulk.
If people want the full range and depth of 40K in their space hulk games, then either make house rules....or just fething play 40K for crying out loud.

The game is a standalone game. It MAY have expansions in the future, but I honestly beleive that GW are trying to bring in more people with this game outside of their current consumer base. It is not aiming it particularly at the 40K fanbase (though they realize there is great interest from that sector) but they are aiming it towards a boardgamer demographic, who frankly far outnumber miniature wargamers by a huge margin if the anecdotal evidence of 20+ years is to be believed.

GW saw how well their expansion rules beyond the genestealer expansion was received (i.e. not well at all), and it is clear that most people who play boardgames want balanced rules first, and nifty little expansions later.

From a boardgamers point of view, if the games rules suck, then it will very quickly die.
Ever wonder why GW made a second edition of space hulk? Think back to the time of silly rules such as eldar just thrown on the board willy nilly with no concern for balance (just put whatever you want on the board. Viola!), and tons of special rules. Harlequins were an even worse example.

1st ed space hulk and its expansion deathwing won years best science fiction board game at Origins two years in a row. When they threw out elegant rules in favor of making a quick buck the public quickly agreed with origins and other gaming institutions that the further expansions were novel ideas at best, but quite poorly implemented.

Honestly, do YOU (the figurative and anonymous 'you') beleive that GW has the ability to balance space hulk (an already delicate balance between merely two types of models) using every known race in the 41st millenium incorporated into the game?
Before you answer, seriously think about how all the nuances of play would be affected and their interactions with each other race for a moment (this should be an easy exercise for people who actually know the rules and play with any frequency). Think about how the majority of these game design veterans who have been with the company for 20+ years still cannot write a competent rule set to save their company's failing reputation from being known as a 'ball dropper'.
If you answer yes, then I sincerely beleive that you are naive beyond rational thought.
If you answer maybe then I can agree there is that slight possibility, no matter how intrinsically improbable it may be.
If you answer no then you are probably right.

I believe "Some" options can be built in (as you point out the Genestealer expansion worked nicely!) but to allow for everything... nope, never going to happen...

But then again, if you already have the army, and a nice spanky new board... you can jusyt play 40K in Tunnels! ;-)

Hellfury wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:That requires variation to the game to drive continued interest, which requires more than two factions for player to trade off between

'Required' eh?

I guess the twenty years of a faithful fan base is not relevant to whats 'required'.

I apologize for not making it clearer. Despite my previous post being only 2 sentences it was in fact one idea:

That if GW wants more than just the current fans of the game to pick it up and continue playing it beyond a year, there has to be more to the game.

Those variations don't have to come in the box, they can be WD articles or expansions. The originally space hulk only had genestealers and terminators, then they added chaos terminators, Imperial Guard, power armored marines and a number of other extra rules. They didn't do all that perfectly or balanced, but they tried.

I am one of the fans who's owned the game for 20 years. I have multiple copies of both editions. I'm not saying it should be an expansion of 40k, just that by virtue of being set in the rich 40k universe it needs to keep that in mind.

Hellfury wrote:
The more I see people wishlisting about "I want orks and I want chaos and I not only want space marines, but I want my own little special rules for my special variant chapter" the more I hope GW just releases just the base game (termies and stealers) and calls it good.

They can never hope to make the spoiled 40K fanbase happy with anything other than 40K scaled down to the size of Space Hulk.
If people want the full range and depth of 40K in their space hulk games, then either make house rules....or just fething play 40K for crying out loud.

I don't want to see that either. I want to see a core set that is just Terminators and Genestealers but after thats done 5 months out when a good number of people start putting the game away after having played it every night since they got it, after playing every mission as Nids and as Marines, it'd be nice if GW releases a solid expansion or a nice article or two with additional missions or factions. The simple fact is if we want any hope of continuing support of Space Hulk by GW we have to see a larger fan base for the game.

Hellfury wrote:The game is a standalone game. It MAY have expansions in the future, but I honestly beleive that GW are trying to bring in more people with this game outside of their current consumer base. It is not aiming it particularly at the 40K fanbase (though they realize there is great interest from that sector) but they are aiming it towards a boardgamer demographic, who frankly far outnumber miniature wargamers by a huge margin if the anecdotal evidence of 20+ years is to be believed.

Yep, Space Hulks what got me into 40k... one boxed game lead to GW getting well over $10,000 from me over the course of close to 20 years. To me I think its a smart move by GW.

Hellfury wrote:GW saw how well their expansion rules beyond the genestealer expansion was received (i.e. not well at all), and it is clear that most people who play boardgames want balanced rules first, and nifty little expansions later.

I think GW has done a decent job of correcting past mistakes, I think they'll try this time around and come out with something thats better.

Hellfury wrote:Honestly, do YOU (the figurative and anonymous 'you') beleive that GW has the ability to balance space hulk (an already delicate balance between merely two types of models) using every known race in the 41st millenium incorporated into the game?
Before you answer, seriously think about how all the nuances of play would be affected and their interactions with each other race for a moment (this should be an easy exercise for people who actually know the rules and play with any frequency). Think about how the majority of these game design veterans who have been with the company for 20+ years still cannot write a competent rule set to save their company's failing reputation from being known as a 'ball dropper'.

I believe GW can write better rules now, whether they can achieve your ideals as far being good enough to do an expansion I can't answer that. The balancing factor in 40k is point costs. Rules can be whatever they want and as long as the points are fair, the rules themselves don't necessarily have to. Space Hulk never had a comprehensive point system because it was created only around 2 units, but if GW knows it will do expansions it can build in a balancing system, which doesn't necessarily mean points. It could be as simple as making each expansion two different factions squaring off against each other, with no intention of cross over between core game and expansions.

I think the most important thing is that the game is fun.

Actually he pointed out that the Genestealer expansion didn't work. Space Hulk worked - they even won an award. Deathwing worked - they won the same award again.

From Genestealer though it was all downhill.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Actually he pointed out that the Genestealer expansion didn't work. Space Hulk worked - they even won an award. Deathwing worked - they won the same award again.

From Genestealer though it was all downhill.

And I said:

aka_mythos wrote:

Hellfury wrote:GW saw how well their expansion rules beyond the genestealer expansion was received (i.e. not well at all), and it is clear that most people who play boardgames want balanced rules first, and nifty little expansions later.

I think GW has done a decent job of correcting past mistakes, I think they'll try this time around and come out with something thats better.

I think one of the main problems was that when the original game came out they had little conception of an expansion and thus trying to make an expansion was made extra difficult. Deathwing if I recall was written for the original game but was cut out to keep the size down, which was why it worked; Genestealer was more of an attempt to follow it up.

Sorry, I was replying to Druidic.

My mistake, got them in the wrong order myself! Forgot Genestealer was the odd one at the end rather then the first expansion (which oddly enough I got to play BEFORE it came out and even got a rules clarrification put into the final game.... ah the good old days....)

I personally think SH would work with certain armies crossed over, but would work BEST as a core game with few armies and a set of 40k rules which use the same board (ala Planet Strike or City Fight) and your existing figures again boosting SH sales, army sales (with people "tweeking" things to suit boarding actions) and would only need to be a GW website or White Dwarf article....

That is of course unless they have already thought ahead and built something for tunnel fighting into Planet strike..... which will guarantee SH sales..... hmm, wouldn't that be a good idea....

D

Or you could just use Anphelion.... as commented before.

(Slightly off-topic)Personally I'd like to run my Tau stealthsuits through a Hulk game.
For the Eldar it could be either Striking scorps or Warpspiders.
Units from other armies:
IG-Vets or storms
Necrons-Wraithes or Tomb spyders
Orks-Lootas
Tyranids-Warriors or 'stealers
SM-Termies or a scout squad
Sisters-Celestian squad
Greyknights-Terminators


My Thought is that the game should be about one Army type sending a scouts to check a hulk that is either also being scouted or is infested by another another races scouts. Or that the alien presence is confirmed and it is a mission to purge the ship of the scouts/looters/infestation/traitors.

Writing a board game from the point of 1 or 2 units from eight different factions and with 2 initial mission types like this should be feasible.

The two missions:
Recon-Get in, investigate for specific time until transport returns, then get out.

Seek and destroy- What it says. It's an annihalation mission to Purge the Hulk of alien infestation before salvage attempts are to be made.



(On-topic) Any update on a release schedule or what the game will actually consist of?


edit for Topics

Hellfury wrote:Honestly, do YOU beleive that GW has the ability to balance space hulk using every known race in the 41st millenium incorporated into the game?

Think about how the majority of these game design veterans who have been with the company for 20+ years still cannot write a competent rule set

Hell, yes, I do. I don't think that Space Hulk can or should have perfect "balance", nor do I believe that it ever had perfect balance before. It was a good little game, and that's all it needs to be. The basic scenarios can be balanced for the forces included in the box, kind of like BfM / BfSP / AoBR. The rest can be the generalized skirmish rules that support small-scale gaming up to 500 pts, below the FOC.

You mean, like the rulesets for Epic 40k / BFG / Warmaster / LotR / WotR and every other well-designed game that GW has created that didn't have the stinking albatross of the WFB legacy hanging around its neck? Or is this just another naive rant that makes a mountain of imbalance out of the tiny molehill that exists in 5E, primarily tied to legacy Codices? Because, as pretty much anybody recognizes, the 40k5 ruleset is actually *very* competent, particularly in relation to anything which came before. And balance-wise, in 40k, it's not like you have Codex matchups that are practically an auto-win/loss like on the Fantasy side of the house (e.g. Vampires / Daemons vs Ogres / Beasts).

aka_mythos wrote:
I apologize for not making it clearer. Despite my previous post being only 2 sentences it was in fact one idea:

That if GW wants more than just the current fans of the game to pick it up and continue playing it beyond a year, there has to be more to the game.

No, it was quite clear. Contrary to what many think, there doesn't have to be 'more to the game' to make it a success past its initial release.
Amazing how that game has lived on merely the merits for the rule of two single models for so long.

It is Space Hulk.
For those of you that want to play 40k it is down the hall, take a left when you see the Jervis Johnson statue and enter through the door that reads "broken and busted since forever".

It is perfectly serviceable on its present (past) merits without everyone who plays 40K wanting to add niggling rules to a surprisingly good (for GW) system. Just because it happens to share some icons and background of 40K doesn't make this a 40K game in the sense we all know of today. Its amazing how hard it seems for people to wrap their heads around the idea that this is a board game, not 40K.

It is the reason why the Genestealer expansion failed. Not because they were bad rules in and of themselves, but it eliminated how simple the game once was which was its main point of playing in the first place. Incredibly easy to learn, not so easy to master.

K.I.S.S. shall be the whole of the law.

Hmm, I'd love to run the Space Hulk gauntlet with a squad of penal legionnaries.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Honestly, do YOU beleive that GW has the ability to balance space hulk using every known race in the 41st millenium incorporated into the game? Think about how the majority of these game design veterans who have been with the company for 20+ years still cannot write a competent rule set

Hell, yes, I do. I don't think that Space Hulk can or should have perfect "balance", nor do I believe that it ever had perfect balance before. It was a good little game, and that's all it needs to be. The basic scenarios can be balanced for the forces included in the box, kind of like BfM / BfSP / AoBR. The rest can be the generalized skirmish rules that support small-scale gaming up to 500 pts, below the FOC.

Ahh you want 40K.
Down the hall, take a left when you see the Jervis Johnson statue and enter through the door that reads "broken and busted since forever".

JohnHwangDD wrote:Because, as pretty much anybody recognizes, the 40k5 ruleset is actually *very* competent, particularly in relation to anything which came before.

I do not subscribe to your version of "competent". You can keep it. Gold plating a turd makes it better than a non gold plated turd. But...it is still a turd.

As for Epic 40k / BFG / Warmaster / LotR / WotR. I do agree those are good games but this is basically turns into a debate of subjective tastes so I will leave it at that instead of this devolving into another thread of "who's opinions are more 'right' today".

BrookM wrote:Hmm, I'd love to run the Space Hulk gauntlet with a squad of penal legionnaries.

Whats to stop you from using the models?
Nothing wrong with proxying far more appropriate models to play the game. (aliens versus colonial marines, whatever you want to play)
Really dumb to mess with the core mechanics and insist new rules be accommodated for everything already present in 40K.

( "Why does my tau stealth suit have to only have 4 action points? I have frickking jump jets I should be able to fly all over the space hulk and shoot bugs and then jump back around the corner before they can touch me" ) Its so predictable it really isn't funny.

Sure it can be argues that a few wouldn't hurt, then you have the butt hurt babies crying about how their kroot aren't allowed to play, or that their space marine scouts were left in the dust. 40K players will absolutely never be happy until it gets turned into 40K in space hulk.

Hellfury wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Honestly, do YOU beleive that GW has the ability to balance space hulk using every known race in the 41st millenium incorporated into the game? Think about how the majority of these game design veterans who have been with the company for 20+ years still cannot write a competent rule set

Hell, yes, I do. I don't think that Space Hulk can or should have perfect "balance", nor do I believe that it ever had perfect balance before. It was a good little game, and that's all it needs to be. The basic scenarios can be balanced for the forces included in the box, kind of like BfM / BfSP / AoBR. The rest can be the generalized skirmish rules that support small-scale gaming up to 500 pts, below the FOC.

Ahh you want 40K.

As for Epic 40k / BFG / Warmaster / LotR / WotR. I do agree those are good games but this is basically turns into a debate of subjective tastes so I will leave it at that instead of this devolving into another thread of "who's opinions are more 'right' today".

Nope, I see SH as 40k "lite", just Infantry, with the occasional Walker or MC for "boss" fights. Maybe a Transport if doing a mega-scenario. That isn't 40k at all. I think it'd be cool to have Imperial Guard Stormtroopers / Veterans as the boarding team. Or Eldar Aspects / Tau Pathfinders. I think it'd be cool to go against Orks or Necrons. I don't think that expanding the SH options to leverage the 40k5 rules engine or the current point-build system is inherently wrong, nor would it necessarily spell the death of simplicity.

If those are agreed to be good games by the same design crew, then it's not the designer, but the legacy that they have to carry. GW does good work from a clean sheet.

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW does good work from a clean sheet.

Totally and emphatically agree.

What they are not good at is taking a good ruleset, and tweaking it for the purpose of sales which is solely what genestealer and all other attempts at adding other races to space hulk were.

It is a standalone boardgame, not 40K lite.

40K lite is killteam/combat patrol. Those rules are already present. To release space hulk under those auspices isn't going to garner more sales from outside sources, only alienate them. Quite counter productive to GW wanting to make this a successful game past their current consumer base.

People who play boardgames will look at it and say "Why the hell am I playing this? This is just 40K. I want Space Hulk back". This is indeed anecdotal, but evidence can be seen on any forum dedicated to boardgames.

Hellfury wrote:What they are not good at is taking a good ruleset, and tweaking it for the purpose of sales which is solely what genestealer and all other attempts at adding other races to space hulk were.

40K lite is killteam/combat patrol.

To release space hulk under those auspices isn't going to garner more sales from outside sources, only alienate them. Quite counter productive to GW wanting to make this a successful game past their current consumer base.

Oh, no doubt GW has a tendency to screw stuff up, where simplicity and sense previously ruled - Second Edition 40k is plenty proof of that!

Does GW still support Kill Team / Combat Patrol? I though those ideas died.

The way I see GW, is they're doing Space Hulk because it's supposed to bring people into 40k. If the appeal were to be as a pure board game that didn't tie to 40k, then it'd be like Dark Heresy / Talisman and not by GW. I imagine GW will be using SH as a way to expand their current customer base, and the easiest way to do that is to merge the Kill Team concepts into SH.

John, no offense meant and in all due respect you completely miss the trees for the woods.

You are looking at this from the perspective of a 40K player who is trying to garner more 40K players.

Look at it from the perspective of a person who plays only boardgames and has not ever been in the land of dollies.

Would they be more likely to get into 40K like many of us did originally buy seeing cool models, neat background and wondering where else I might explore this avenue when playing space hulk?

Or

Make space hulk a 40K expansion and expect people to jump on board with 40K?

It really would work either way, but40k already has its gateway drug, and that is AoBR. How many more loss lead products to push people into 40K does GW need to produce?

It does a great disservice not only to space hulk by attempting what you suggest, but it also is not going to reach out to a demographic GW hasn't attempted to reel in for years. Boardgamers. Which is what space hulk is. A boardgame.

Warhammer quest would be just as much of a draw into WHFB as space hulk is to 40K without sticking dirty fingers all over it expecting it to be a direct reflection of its nearest counterpart.

The only commonality those two board games share with their nearest counterparts is background and models. Rules differ vastly from those counterparts and there is is no reason to make them mimic such contrary to numerous wishlisting by people who want yet another way to play 40K.

You want kill team/combat patrol? Play them. It doesn't matter if GW no longer supports them. They hardly ever did anyways. 3 or 4 WD articles, a few GW website rule tweaks and that was it.

You want Necromunda? Play it.

Not every game that vaguely resembles 40K has to be incorporated into the the wargame. Many people enjoy the boardgame because it DOESN'T lead into 40K. Crazy as this may sound, not everyone enjoys the august pleasure of 40K's 'competent' rules.

@Hellfury: QFT.

Space Hulk 2nd edition was a very early purchase of mine. I specifically bought it because it was a self-contained BOARDGAME, with a tengential connection to 40k. I loved the atmosphere it invoked and still love the game.

If GW made it 40k lite, and added anything other than the bare minimum (termies and stealers), I would not buy it. Period.

Space Hulk second edition then led to my interest in the larger 40k, and I bought my first 40k army: Chaos Marines.

Who, is saying to not make it self contained. You can make it self contained while adding variety.

IMHO,Adding such variety will only enhance the games appeal.

Have any of you wondered why GW abandoned the game for a while, or why they felt the need to tinker with it through expansions in the first place.

Companies and Corporations usually do such to revive the sales of a leading product after it starts to lose its popularity.

Why would it lose popularity? I don't know, maybe because it was a very 2-demensional game with limited factions. If you want only two factions and KISS then why aren't you playing chess?

How many of you would constantly play risk or Axis and Allies if you were limited to only heads up games.

Actually Axis and Allies is a good comparison. Not because of game mechanics but because of the concious choice to include five different factions from five different situations in the game. They could have made the game just Axis(One player) vs Allies(One player) but they chose to make the game with more variety.

Thats all I'm hoping for. At some point to not be forced to play Marine Vs Tyanid game but something with more to it.

If they can design the game more factions and variety while following KISS. Whats the problem?


Now rip into me for my Blasphemy.