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The Nazi argument is hardly relevant, there are more than "some" die hard, there are a couple Legions of them. Its a Civil War because it never ended the Traitor Marines are still that, traitor marines.

According to the latest Black Crusade he has won, Abbadon that is.

...Abbadon won? First I heard.
Anyway, if he even tried to take on Terra he'd be screwed sideways.

Traitor Marinz fled the Imperium right?

Let's say that two politacal rivals get into civil war. 1 loses and flees the country. He is no longer a threat (not AS big as he started off) and the country is no longer in turmoil. Just becuase he is not dead does not mean the Civil War is still going on. Even if he does still make guerilla attacks.

From what GW has been telling me he won. And there isn't much between him and Terra.

You know what, Vietnam was similar to what you're describing and you know what that was? A Civil War. Just cause one side doesn't wanna call it that doesn't mean its not.

I don't think you understand how BIG the Imperium is. I think that CSM should be classed as renegades (which they are) they are not an army on equal terms with the Immperium.

How did Abbadon win? (honestly this is the first I've heard)

The Black Legion is still that a Legion united for the most part under the command of Abbadon, the Night Lords for the most part are a Legion still as well along with the Iron Warrior and the Word Bearers, only the Death Guard, 1ksons, Zerkers and Noise Marines are warbands, well them along with Renegade chapters and the Alpha Legion who does what ever it wants, then add in all the cultists that get drawn to them and the Traitor Guard and bam there goes Terra. The Cadian Gate isn't that far from Terra.

From what I've been told the 13th Black Crusade was a Major victory for Chaos on the ground with them controlling over 90% of the Planet and inspace they controlled roughly half. Strength through numbers and superior firepower.

Yeah, but storywise how did it go?
I heard something about Eldrad sacrificing himself to stop Abbadon.

Im not quite sure they've worked the story out, as Chaos winning means they have to move the story line forward.

I think Eldrad died in the 12th BC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taken From lexicanum:

The Thirteenth Black Crusade was the background to the worldwide Warhammer 40,000 Eye of Terror campaign, which resulted in a minor victory for the forces of Chaos and gave Abaddon a foothold in the Cadian Gate, though he suffered grevious losses to his fleet.

While the ground is largely controlled by the forces of Chaos, the skies above Cadia are almost entirely ruled by Admiral Quarren and the entire Battle Fleet Groups: Gothic and Solar and elements of several chapters of Space Marines, leaving the results open as the battle rages on. Having both space and air superiority gives a significant advantage to the Imperial forces, allowing the deployment of fresh troops and the bombardment of Abaddon's army.

There is rampant speculation among fans that Abaddon intends to eventually take the war to Terra itself, taking advantage of some type of conflict involving the Adepts of Mars and a big secret yet unrevealed.

SO apparently my Black Shirts havent been spot on but still. Foot Hold on Cadia ect.

Horus jumped the gun out of fear, because of it he failed.

Sanguinius held the Eternium Gate singlehanded and bitchslapped some Bloodthirsters around like little girls.

He then went onto Horus's battle barge with the Emperor and confronted Horus solo, knowing that Horus could pretty much kill him with a single stroke because he was backed by all 4 Chaos Gods. Instead of backing down, he tried to convince his brother to come back to the Imperium and Horus attempted to bring him to the side of chaos. Neither won and Sanguinius was struck down.

Even in a bloated and festering Chaos Barge, Sanguinius did not falter in his loyalty.

Sanguinius > Horus

As far as Abaddon winning Cadia goes, he owns the ground. Imperial Navy owns the skies and space. Hes not going anywhere for awhile.

So you follow Sanguinius because he was an optimist?


Unless he uses the Warp to get out. Another thing I heard is that Chaos should have completely won but GW dropped the hammer of RetCon because heaven forbid they advance the story.

RetCon?

Anyway Sanguinius beats Horus easy. Abbadon = Horus Wannabe.

Therefore Sanguinius (and Blood angels) beat Abbadon.

RetCon is when they change something that happens in the game to better suit them. Like rather than complete Chaos Victory, just a minor one.

But Sanguinius was killed by Horus, you may take the moral High Ground but you still lose the battle.

RetCon is a Portmanteau of Retroactive Continuity. Google it why don't you

...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Emperors Faithful wrote:...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Horus only fought the Emperor and Sanguinius in the first place BECAUSE Russ was days away from Terra. If Russ had not been en route, he would have stayed on his barge another month or two and easily won.

Gwar! wrote:RetCon is a Portmanteau of Retroactive Continuity. Google it why don't you

Sorry Gwar, my google-fu was feeling lazy.

Emperors Faithful wrote:...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Though not the war, yet anyway...

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:...and Horus was killed by Emprah, Sanguinius best buddy.

YOU LOSE THE BATTLE!

Horus only fought the Emperor and Sanguinius in the first place BECAUSE Russ was days away from Terra. If Russ had not been en route, he would have stayed on his barge another month or two and easily won.

Indeed, be glad Russ was on his way other wise Horus would have won and the Dark Angels would have helped to destroy the Space Wolves.

Lets be fair, the Dark Angels could in no way help destroy anybody. They were too busy being emo and destroying their home planet.

Saying that CSM are not brothers to the loyalists is just wrong, they are still indeed brothers, they have just been estranged by ten thousand years of warfare.

Also, Sangy's sacrifice accomplished a whole lot of nothing, Horus crushed him with no problems.
Then the Emprah was mortally wounded, and killed horus.

so if sangy didnt hurt horus, and horus was still killed by the emp, then if sangy didnt fight horus the emp would have still killed him, and then the Imperium would have been +1 primarch instead of +1 dead emo guy with wings.

I'm fairly certain that if it had just been Russ (and not his entire legion of Spess Puppies), Horus wouldn't have been overly worried.

Demogerg, a lot of fluff says that Flying Vampire Man put a chink in the armor of Horus that allowed the big E to defeat him. You can't truthfully ay he did nothing.

I will admit that Russ is likable. He is the least GRIMDARK of all the Primarch's ('cept maybe Vulkan) and he's easily the most entertaining.

RustyKnight wrote:I'm fairly certain that if it had just been Russ (and not his entire legion of Spess Puppies), Horus wouldn't have been overly worried.

Demogerg, a lot of fluff says that Flying Vampire Man put a chink in the armor of Horus that allowed the big E to defeat him. You can't truthfully ay he did nothing.

I will admit that Russ is likable. He is the least GRIMDARK of all the Primarch's ('cept maybe Vulkan) and he's easily the most entertaining.

"A lot of fluff says" is not an argument. It has been consistently stated that all fluff is bias and written from an In universe view.

Gwar! wrote:"A lot of fluff says" is not an argument..

Someone already linked Flying Vampire Primarch's Lexicanum page. It contains a lot of fluff. Guess what that fluff says. I'm sorry, I should have said,"LOLOL RUSS WINS!!1! ALL THE OTHERS ARE WORSE IN EVERY POSSIBLE MANNER!1!

Gwar! wrote:It has been consistently stated that all fluff is bias and written from an In universe view.

So, effectively, fluff is inadmissable as proof for anything and nothing is false? Demo said Flying Vampire did nothing. Fluff disagrees. Fluff is biased, so it doesn't matter. Demo can't be refuted?

Russ was a cross dressing furry with had a man crush on Horus. Horus duelled the Emperor to avoid being smother to death by Russ's kisses.

What the hell is all this furry talk there is no place in the 40k just war and emo Primarch guys

Chaos won Eye of Terror.

The Imperial claim that it was a "tie" because they held the space tiles is untrue. Games Workshop said as the campaign was going on that Chaos could pull supplies through warp gates, but the Imperial players ignored it.

Them claiming a tie is like claiming that you won an objective game because you had more of your army left, and you would totally kill your opponent if the game continued, when your opponent has more objectives and the game has ended. It just doesn't cut it.

Not that Games Workshop would dare advance the story.

RustyKnight wrote:

Gwar! wrote:"A lot of fluff says" is not an argument..

Someone already linked Flying Vampire Primarch's Lexicanum page. It contains a lot of fluff. Guess what that fluff says. I'm sorry, I should have said,"LOLOL RUSS WINS!!1! ALL THE OTHERS ARE WORSE IN EVERY POSSIBLE MANNER!1!

Gwar! wrote:It has been consistently stated that all fluff is bias and written from an In universe view.

So, effectively, fluff is inadmissable as proof for anything and nothing is false? Demo said Flying Vampire did nothing. Fluff disagrees. Fluff is biased, so it doesn't matter. Demo can't be refuted?

Russ was a cross dressing furry with had a man crush on Horus. Horus duelled the Emperor to avoid being smother to death by Russ's kisses.

If I say that Sanguinius is cool, will that settle things?

I thought Dreadwinter and I settled this a page ago.

Chaos won the Eye of Terror and the net effect was... nothing. Failbaddon still didn't take Cadia, and nothing changed except a few planets we didn't know existed until EoT got asploded.

It was nothingy result, riddled with GW's usual pathetic execution. Cascade effects in favur of the Imperium didn't work in the same manner as they did for Chaos so everything got skewed.

Gwar, why do you keep claiming that Horus was scared of Russ ALONE?

He was more scared of 3 entire legions bearing down on his ragged rear-end (Ultramarinz, Dark Angelz, and Spehz Puppehz) than one dude.

I don't see what the big argument is. Sanguinius and Russ are hands down the best Primarchs. Why you guys dick waving?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Gwar, why do you keep claiming that Horus was scared of Russ ALONE?

He was more scared of 3 entire legions bearing down on his ragged rear-end (Ultramarinz, Dark Angelz, and Spehz Puppehz) than one dude.

Sorry, but the Ultramarines and Dark Angels were boats of Fail and wouldn't have done anything.

Yeah. A Legion that ounumbered everyone else wouldn't have done "anything" to the foces of Chaos, especially when backed up by the Dar Angels and Woofs. No. Nothing at all.

But seriously Gwar!, I didn't have you pegged as a Woof fanboy.

hey, Rule #1, be nice.

but basically yea,

Demo can't be refuted?

pretty much.

also

fluff is inadmissable as proof for anything

true
this is science fiction, so yea, nothing is "true" or "real"
and because there is so much left to the imagination, we are all just a bunch of super nerds trying to make ourselves seem like we are the superior supernerds on a supernerd nerdrage forum.

no offense to anyone.

A critical amount of offence being taken over here, Demogerg. lol.

I like Russ, he's funny, especially when he either:
a) Throws a tantrum
b) Throws a tantrum and gets drunk
or c) Throws a tantrum, gets drunk and pummels someone

I just don't see why Gwar is madly frothing over the hairy space viking.