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You're fully aware of the Imperial Intelligence Agency that was run by Isard, right?

As in: Capturing Rebel informants, programming them into sleeper agents who go after the highest valued target in a blaze of explosives, after reporting back everything they can?

Or the Clone Intelligence Service from the twilight of the Republic, which was Commandos given fully cloaking armor on par if not above the Tau's Stealth Suits and weaponry that could shear through the shields of fightercraft to then punch through the cockpit?

On the subject of the Chaos Marines and Tyranids, etc...
The Black Fleet Crisis(Yvethans, nasty buggers who had spikes growing out of their bodies and were tactical freaking geniuses, originally a slave race of the Empire and then trained in it), the Chiss(Thrawn's race), the Noghri(masterful assassins that even Jedi found hard to detect, much less STOP, given that they trained extensively as kill-teams for taking out Jedi), the Yuuzhan Vong(about as close to Tyranids as you can get), the Ssiruuvi(I think that's right. Truce at Bakura era, literally days after the fall of the second Death Star. A race that used 'life energy' drained from prisoners of war to power their combat droids, and to actually CONTROL the droids.)

We can go on and on, because there's also tons of renegade Jedi factions from after the fall of the Republic that have grown into full fledged cults.

"Ssiruuvi"

Oh man I totally forgot about those guys. When I was starting to read some of the EU I at first thought these guys were the Yuzhan Vong... man, did I have that superbackwards or what.

Kanluwen wrote:Why wouldn't Palpatine trust them?
He was the one ordering them, originally. He also far overstated the threat to the Republic as JUST his way to get the Grand Army of the Republic made.
What would stop him from just telling the Trade Federation/Separatists to step up production and stop harassing his clones?

Well, according to wookiepedia he grew to distrust his clone troopers (due to them all being too similar).

I don't really know that he wouldn't trust droids if they could be put to a really good use, but it might be a factor if he had to choose between, say, droids and stormtroopers. Or droids and star destroyers.

Also, if I recall, the droids really sucked. Not counting the deathballs and the other special ones.

crazypsyko666, you overstate things far too much. While the Star Wars universe has seen little like the total war the Imperium faces they have well disciplined forces and vast industrial superiority to the Imperium. They also have a working government and can keep track of their entire empire so little is wasted. When you have an empire that can build a Death Star in secret subcontracting out transportation to a small shipping company then you start to see the scale.

Cyclonic bombs would need to head through ECM, shield,s and hull before finding air on the Death Star. Major worlds have planetary shields and even small bases such as the one on Hoth have theater shields capable of forcing a landing unless the enemy fleet wishes to pound them from orbit for a while. The empire can cause the same effect as that with a Base Delta Zero effect and have torpedo spheres as well.

Chaos is difficult, but can the warp pass through a full energy field to corrupt a star ship crew? I think they may not be able to, as well the force, not used by a Jedi, but as a whole does protect the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy.

The Eldar don't have the numbers and would need warp gates in the Ge held territory to strike from. That makes them losers here.

The DE are the same, but with lesser numbers and seemingly weaker weapons.

Tau control a few planets and even the Hutts or the CSA could beat them back with ease.

The assassins are better but assassins =/= a war won. You also have to respect what the bounty hunters and human replica droids can do especially if used on a large scale.

Nuns of war versus Monks with energy swords, I say they are equally interesting.

Kanluwen, they weren't used to avoid bring up memories of the war and as they were seen by many as the enemy. Their is little doubt that in a total war situation they would see action again.

If the forces of the Warp are in on it, Star Wars is probably a gonner.

The Warp is magic and it's ten times as magical as the Force.

If the powers of the Warp were united, and the Emperor was allied with them, all the Imperium would have to do is make all of their major systems into warp rifts. Then it's bye-bye any attempt to fight them, because the laws of physics no longer apply. Also, the Imperium could send their ships back in time, and attack a planet before they even left.

That's not even getting into what the Tyranids and united Orks could do against the Star Wars galaxy. Or the Necrons. Led by the Eldar. (Of course, you also have the issue in Star Wars of there being a hell of a lot of stuff that exists at different times, which complicates things further.)

Yes, it is true that the full force of the warp could cause much harm to the Star Wars universe, the IoM has shown that it can be held back. With far less natural psykers Chaos would have less of a foothold to start with and with the rate of technological advance in the GE Gellar fields may not be too hard for them to develop and improve upon. Though that is pure speculation.

the Tyranids would be nasty, but the GE has shown they will use BDZ attacks on lost worlds and the Nids in space are something of a joke attacking with melee and very short range weapons. They would have a very hard time gaining a foothold and not being able to claim biomass would end them shortly.

Ork are much the same, spores don't stick to shields and a BDZ attack will kill spores quickly. The GE may even be able to build bio weapons to kill orks and their spores as they certainly do have a wide range and a good record with such things.

Norade wrote:

EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.

EDIT 2: Star Wars does have capital scale ground vehicles see the link here for one such example: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/XR-85_tank_droid

Hey bub, movies are visual representations of a story. Obviously, I am not disputing that the movies are the highest form of canon. If you honestly believe Stormtroopers were as bad of shots as they were in the movie, have your head examined. If you also believe that the Battle of Hoth and Endor were as bloody on screen as they truly were, you are mistaken.

Marshal, I have a screen name and it isn't Bub, please use a bit more respect when dealing with me or I will make this unpleasant.

Now, when did I say they were bad shots? I was defending their accuracy in my post, and merely stating cannon as you seemed to be saying that EU was more important that the movies for this debate, I strongly disagree.

As for Hoth and Endor being bloodier on screen, as it seems to be your point, why wouldn't they be? The films show things exactly as they were as if they were shot by an in universe war corespondent. The books if anything would be akin to a news release and details would change in the retelling and details may be added or omitted as seen fit by the editor. Not to say they wil be wrong, but they will be different and the video would be a better first hand source of information that the report.

"As they truly were?"

Good to see I'm not the only one confused by that...

Norade wrote:Yes, it is true that the full force of the warp could cause much harm to the Star Wars universe, the IoM has shown that it can be held back. With far less natural psykers Chaos would have less of a foothold to start with and with the rate of technological advance in the GE Gellar fields may not be too hard for them to develop and improve upon. Though that is pure speculation.

It's only held back with the Emperor and the Necrons working against it. Now they'd be working with it.

Geller fields for the Empire seems unlikely, it's a technology they have no experience with, that interacts with a dimension they have no experience with.

I really do think the warp would be end-game. It's an infinite dimension of magic, it's not the kind of thing you can really fight. Once again, remember that the chaos gods know the future, and can guide ships along instantaneously.

the Tyranids would be nasty, but the GE has shown they will use BDZ attacks on lost worlds and the Nids in space are something of a joke attacking with melee and very short range weapons. They would have a very hard time gaining a foothold and not being able to claim biomass would end them shortly.

They'd go down fairly easily in space, but BDZing their worlds would still hurt a bit.

Ork are much the same, spores don't stick to shields and a BDZ attack will kill spores quickly. The GE may even be able to build bio weapons to kill orks and their spores as they certainly do have a wide range and a good record with such things.

I wouldn't be as worried about them on the ground as I would be space.

Their production capacity would far outweigh the Empire's if they were ever united. I think there was a calculation of at least a quadrillion orks in the Milky Way? And they live outside of it too. (I think they even built a Deathstar-ripoff once.)

They can't navigate very well, but if the chaos gods are guiding them, what are you supposed to do about that?

United Chaos is an oxymoron it simply can't happen and won't, and even if it did the IoM and Necron's would never go along. Both the GoM and the C'Tan hate Chaos and it may even reawaken some buried Nercon lords, those could certainly challenge the GE as they are said to be head and shoulders better than anybody else in 40k and that is with a fraction of their power.

The same goes for the Orks, they follow only Gork and Mork and theri Waaagh! Uniting them in greater numbers than Ghazghkull has would be nigh impossible.

Norade wrote:United Chaos is an oxymoron it simply can't happen and won't, and even if it did the IoM and Necron's would never go along. Both the GoM and the C'Tan hate Chaos and it may even reawaken some buried Nercon lords, those could certainly challenge the GE as they are said to be head and shoulders better than anybody else in 40k and that is with a fraction of their power.

The same goes for the Orks, they follow only Gork and Mork and theri Waaagh! Uniting them in greater numbers than Ghazghkull has would be nigh impossible.

It's more likely than them fighting against people from Star Wars!

Maybe, but it is still far worse than the Empire using droids to battle the IoM.

Well, I assumed that it was hypothetical battle between the two universes united against one another.

Of course it would never actually happen, but that's the nature of it being hypothetical.

Were you assuming the two galaxies just ended up right next to each other and the fighting broke out from there?

Yes, I had assumed they would come in as they were or the collective powers of the IoM were left in partial isolation and allowed to go against each other. The warring factions there would weaken the IoM more than the rebels would weaken the GE so I assumed it was far. If we were comparing everything vs everything then Chaos could win, assuming their is any warp at all in the SW side of things, and that is not a given.

Because modern filmaking technology cannot capture the scope of destruction and devastation that such high level technology would produce. Do you honestly think that the OT had the technological capabilities as the PT. The Battle of Coruscant and Kashyyk are two perfect examples of accurate representations as opposed to the Battle of Endor, where we don't see any ship to ship action in as great detail, we have to read about it. In the PT you see the devastation.

We are ont he same side of this argument. I ams till waiting for you to realize it.

And I seriously doubt you will make anything unpleasant in a background forum. We are all just here to have a good time, and calling someone ignorant is hardly the way to make yourself a nonchalant and playful participant.

Norade wrote:Yes, I had assumed they would come in as they were or the collective powers of the IoM were left in partial isolation and allowed to go against each other. The warring factions there would weaken the IoM more than the rebels would weaken the GE so I assumed it was far. If we were comparing everything vs everything then Chaos could win, assuming their is any warp at all in the SW side of things, and that is not a given.

Aaaahhhhhh.

Well, I guess that is quite different from what I was thinking.


In that case, yeah, I think the Imperium would buckle under its enemies. It's just too much, they're already on the edge without needing to fight someone close to their size.

In that case, I think it could go one of two ways: 1) The Emperor of Man is reborn, and then the plotline is actually a little similar to that of the movies. The Emperor leads a rebellion against Palpatine, and with everything else Palpatine is trying to fight off (probably including chaos corruption), the Emperor defeats him and becomes the true ruler of the Empire. Actually, much of the Empire may remain intact in that case, they're not so much different from the Imperium.
2) The Emperor is not reborn. He's just dead. Without the Astronomicon the Imperium ceases to exist in any real fashion. However, chaos quickly seeps into the Imperium's former worlds, and stuff gets corrupted fast. It probably migrates to the Star Wars galaxy, and with just the Dark Side to oppose it, they're in trouble (especially since the Dark Side and Chaos might as well be lovers). The Empire is eventually defeated in much the same way the Imperium might be; corruption from within, aliens from without.

I suppose other possible scenarios would be Emperor Palpatine ascends to daemonhood (which would still be more a victory for chaos than the Empire, all things considered), orks/nids/necrons show yet unknown potential and kill everything, the Imperium somehow survives but nothing ever happens (if GW writes it), the Force responds in an unpredicted manner to the existence of Chaos, and the Hutts and the orks band together and party.

I supposed I miss understood your stance then, please allow my to apologize but calling me Bub doesn't suit me very well.

Anyway, I'm fairly sure you may be right, but we do get impressive scenes such as the asteroid destruction by a light turbolaser, Alderan's explosion, and the dogfights through the fleet at Endor. The ground battles also showed much smaller scale conflicts as the most major ground operations we see are attacks on lightly defended outposts and there is still much damage done to each side. As a matter of taste I prefer these scene to the PT as the CGI takes away from the seeming reality of things and going back CGI always looks more dated than models.

I also have mention something else. Polotcis. The Star Wars universe would be crippled by indecision. (Even Empire had to appease the senate to some extent), Imperium would have no such problem. The citizens all know what is expected of them and would show little to no mercy against those they fight. They are more dedicated than Imperial soldiers (mostly).

Also, I don't see any COMPARISON between the productive achievements of the Imperium and the Empire. (I see the figures for star wars but what do they mean without figures from Imperium?)

Lastly, undeniably, it would be the Imperium to strike first. (due to thier intolerance towards rivallry to such an extent) This would give them the element of surprise as there would be little or no warning for Star Wars.

I have to say that 40k would win through sheer, unhinged savagery.

Sorry, but the Emperor is a dictator. Politics are not such a big deal to him. He controls the senate.

Imperial soldiers tend to all be brainwashed.

And I find your use of the word 'undeniably' interesting here. I deny it. The Emperor's always been one to send fleets of warships ravening around the galaxy, establishing new colonies, and kicking the crap out of other civilisations. Whilst the Imperium might get first strike if the Empire didn't know that they were there, the Holocomm system and their hyperdrives would allow the Empire to quickly respond, making any first strike advantage minimal.

Whilst Norade has exaggerated several of the Empires capabilities, in a nutshell, the conclusion that him, me and orkeosaurus seem to have reached is that it would be a close thing either way, in a scenario with the Empire against the Imperium, without involving alternate races into the equation.

Emperor's Faithful, the very first act in Episode IV was to disband the senate and appoint more power to the Moffs. The ISB, and COMPNOR keep things in line.

For production the Imperium has no innovation, few shipyards where everything is done by rote the most reliable way to avoid losing a piece of ancient technology. We know the operate refurbished hulks many thousands of years old and that alone speaks volumes about what they can produce.

As for a first strike it would be limited to the range of the Astronomicon and would likely take many times longer to arrive than it would take the GE's counter blow to arrive due to the nature of the warp. Even if they struck first planetary shields and quick response fleets would eat the IoM alive as they come in piecemeal due to the random nature of the warp. You also seem to forget that the GE can be savage as well and that they have more population to call upon in a total war for both fighting and production.

As well droids and automated ramships have no morale so how do you think savagery will win once flesh is replaced with unfeeling metal? How will the IoM deal with World Devestators eating their fleet and then worlds and turning them to factories. By the time they respond they face a fortress and a swarm of drone ships and the Devestator has already moved on bigger and better than before. Now before you respond these machines at entire fleets whole before the shut down code was used.

Don't forget the DS, Torpedo Sphere, Plagues Nurgle has yet to lay eyes upon. People seem to think the GE is soft, yet ignore the evil they use as a matter of course. One does not destroy billions without being able to take heavy losses and survive.


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Exaggerated, how so? My facts come from the ICS and other source books as well as calculations derived from, the movies and books. I have provide links that prove some of my points ans can back up everything I say.

Even the Emperor had to appease the Senate (somewhat).

And I'm not going to claim that THE Emprah is currently fully active as that would just be unfair. Mabye the Imperial Soldiers are brainwashed, but I mean the citizens? There was a widespread case of RA, remember? The Imperiums dogma and indoctrination of thier citizens is more "full on".

Also, compare the heads of power. The HQ. Terra is nigh impentrable, a whole sector fleet dedicated to the protection of one planet, not to mention the LEGION of custodes and such as well as the massive fortress itself. (As well as the billions of pilgrims that may/may not sacrifice themselves in it's defence). Corusant on the other hand is VERY vulnerable to attack. (Note the Sepratist kiddnapping of palpatine). A single chapter, or even just a company could be enough to drop pod down, sluaghter senate/whatever and then cuase untold havoc.

I don't think you should even START to argue that Palpatine is as agressive as the Imperium. Not saying it is a good thing (could be manipulated), but the Imperium WOULD strike first, and HARD. (Note the above scenario)

Okay Norade. Let's see what I can find in that one post of yours....

Well for a start, your claim that the Empire has more men under arms then the Imperium. As Lieutenant Kage once said, 'I come from a city with a billion humans on. There are thirteen such cities on my world, and tens of thousands of world like that in the Imperium'. The Empire maintains huge numbers of men under arms, but without including droids, which are NOT standard infantry in the Empire, and aliens, which are not allowed to serve in their armies, I don't see how the Empire can match these kinds of numbers. They have some densely populated planets, such as Coruscant, and Kuat, but they lack the sheer multitude of humanity in the GW Universe.

You keepo bringing up the World Devastators, but then you must as well start including the Galaxy Gun, and the Sun Crusher. We're considering the Empire immediately subsequent to the construction of the first Death Star, NOT everything ever available in the extended SW universe. I could stretch to including Eclipse class Star Destroyers, but once you start pulling in weaponry from all over the SW series, the 40K Universe gets to go back and start adding Primarchs and vortex weaponry. If you don't stick to one chronologically fixed period, the whole thing is meaningless. So in other words, no clones, no battle droids. There are some standard droid models, like Tank Droids, and robot TIE's, but as a general rule of thumb, droids are not the be all and end all of SW.

You fail to see that the Imperial worlds are controlled by fear, fear of the Empire, fer of external threats, fear of the ISB. The moment the attack comes the rebellion will crumble and you will see a united Empire, unlike the NR when the Vong attacked Palpatine would accept no less. After all he had prepared for an extra galactic attack before and while not the same would have plans for this.

How would Terra deal with a single Death Star Blast? What magic do they have that will strike back at 10 light minutes when the Death Star jumps in and sets itself up? What do they have to expose its weakness? What do they have that can harm those shields? Nothing, so your best world is exactly what the Death Star was made for.

Even a fleet of ISD's would do the job, micro-jumps, hit and fade eat away at a range they can never match. Fighters in Star Wars can pull 90% of the speed of light swiftly when going all out so, where is your trump card, your ace?


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WD's were based on existing construction technology not something wild an new, that is a basic factory with AI and military grade defenses not some massive leap. They have mobile droid factories already, even if you simply game them an escort fleet it is too much to counter for a system that has lost entire sectors. You presume too much in trying to make this fight fair, I use things that are still there to be used, you call upon the past even with Primarchs and Vortexs the will not win as they can never choose their battles the way the GE can.

As for population the GE controls more territory than the IoM and while not militarized it means they have a large pool to draw from. We know they have an edge in R&D, production, and population, if they go all out they will not be stopped.

As for clones and droids you must not know any of Palpatine's plans, he had an entire secret stash of flash cloning vasts set to produce thousands of close perfectly loyal to him each weak. He had many droid programs running at once and with the rebels not their to foil him most would reach fruition. Once they are in full use again then what will the IoM do, they are at their limits and not producing enough to win, even if they're twice as good and kill twice as much they can never win against superior production. Ask Hitler about that his tanks averaged 5 to 1 kills to deaths but were ground out by sheer numbers, and once supplies were cut his troops starved or froze in Russia. Now imagine that your supplies were cut by a force moving with a speed you can't counter, your shipyards are dead and it take weeks for news to reach you and longer to send any help. Each time this happens the IoM loses a little more. Even if they aren't used to start why would they not see use if they are needed Palpatine didn't have a need and so many things were never used, but he had many reserves and was far more cunning than given credit for.


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People also seem to think that an IoM alpha strike will happen but they need intel to choose targets and the GE will beat the their too. Probe droids can map far faster than the methods of the IoM and the IoM will nevrr see them coming until it is too late. Simply put the Empire may seem soft, but they have all the advantages in the end.

They do not have the edge in population, as I just established. Not only that, but the Empire does not militarise most of the planets under it's control. It maintains a basic garrison of so many thousands of troops per world, and that's it. That's because most Imperial human populated world's are actually quite happily pacified living under the Empire. The Empire has never once had to to go to a complete war footing, it's always had the luxury of taking troops from where they're not needed, and moving them to where they're critically needed. Their logistical support is second to none, but they are severely out numbered in terms of actual forces being raised, and overall population.

I'm going to ignore the section on the Emperors cloning vats, because including that is like including the ones Thrawn found on Wayland, or Cloaking Shields. We're keeping it fixed at a specific chronological period here. Saying, 'ah, but the emperor had many other things that would have worked if it hadn't been for those pesky kids and their meddling dog' isn't valid. Sorry. Use what the Empire has in the established period, in mass production and circulation, not one off super weapons, or research projects. SW isn't the only one with things like that, if you start bringing in droids, I reserve the rights to bring in uncorrupted Iron Men, you bring in World Devastators, I bring in vortex weaponry capable of tearing world devastators a new one.

Stick to the period and you'll have a viable argument. As things stand, I know a lot of both ends of the fluff, and the specifics, and you still exaggerating a lot. Not only that, as War Studies student, I have to say, your analogy with the use on Hitler is groundless, and meaningless without taking into account exactly who he was fighting, the tactics used, and the models of tanks involved. General Guderians diaries should provide a wealth of information for you there.

Norade wrote:You fail to see that the Imperial worlds are controlled by fear, fear of the Empire, fer of external threats, fear of the ISB. The moment the attack comes the rebellion will crumble and you will see a united Empire, unlike the NR when the Vong attacked Palpatine would accept no less. After all he had prepared for an extra galactic attack before and while not the same would have plans for this.

How would Terra deal with a single Death Star Blast? What magic do they have that will strike back at 10 light minutes when the Death Star jumps in and sets itself up? What do they have to expose its weakness? What do they have that can harm those shields? Nothing, so your best world is exactly what the Death Star was made for.

Even a fleet of ISD's would do the job, micro-jumps, hit and fade eat away at a range they can never match. Fighters in Star Wars can pull 90% of the speed of light swiftly when going all out so, where is your trump card, your ace?

As for population the GE controls more territory than the IoM and while not militarized it means they have a large pool to draw from. We know they have an edge in R&D, production, and population, if they go all out they will not be stopped.

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People also seem to think that an IoM alpha strike will happen but they need intel to choose targets and the GE will beat the their too. Probe droids can map far faster than the methods of the IoM and the IoM will nevrr see them coming until it is too late. Simply put the Empire may seem soft, but they have all the advantages in the end.

Okay, for the Death Star and all, What did I say about Terra having its own ROUND the CLOCK sector fleet? Also, don't forget that the Astropath choir would sense their coming. (Now that you mention it, the emperors Tarot would come in use a lot.) Also, Terra is heavily shielded...HEAVILY shielded. (I don't know much about how the Death Star would cope with a shield of that magnitude, it only took out a defenceless planet and a few smallish ships). Don't know what ISD's are so can't comment. How can you say it controls more territory?
1) I would hardly call the Outer Rim "terrirtory" of the Empire. (to any great extent)
2) How many countries supply troops to the Empire? Compared to EVERY SINGLE ONE in the Imperium.

Lastly, callidus assasins and such would pick the targets. And also, astropaths and pskers WOULD see them coming.


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Also, according to my lessons on Stalingrad, Hitlers troops killed relatively evenly (a slight slant to Germany) but the Russians had more troops to fill the gaps.

Hardly a 1 to 5 ratio though. Point stands though.

You ignore the sheer Scale of the GE's resources compared to the IoM, how do you counter when each ship lost is a thousand years of lost technology and each dreadnought the same? While you remain static the expect the GE to do the same and we have seen it is never that way. They developed throughout the entire clone wars, and even through the rebellion no less than three new models of fighter with several variants were introduced. You also discount that I am using things that exist and are already in use wide scale, cloning of new limbs and soldiers have been used before to great effect by Palpatine, the same goes for droids. The Stash at Wayland was fully operational before the Emperors first death, and was never used because he never saw a need.

You claim they have less population yet you forget the hundreds of city worlds that could contain as many as 387,654,720,000 citizens to themselves at low estimate. They hold a million full member worlds and many more smaller systems for resources. How many worlds does the IoM have? I would like numbers here not vague statements.

I am unfamiliar with uncorrupted Iron Men, but does the IoM in the 41st century have the ability to make more? Same with vortex weapons, they must have a limited stock if they aren't used more. You forget that each loss the IoM takes is irreplaceable and each lose the the GE can be remade again better than before.

You also fail to bring any counter to the speed, range, targeting, ECM, data management, infrastructure, production, supply and many other issues of no small import. So please tell me how the larger slower and only equally armed and under aimed ships of the IoM will win when they can never choose a stand, never catch a fleeing foe, and feel each lose more keenly? I am eager for an answer.

The model of weapon is irrelevant what matters is being outclassed and outproduced. Imagine if the Russians tanks were at the same quality as Germanies but were faster more reliable more replaceable and could strike anywhere at will and Germany had slower less reliable tanks than Russia with the survivability of a Sherman and production problems. That is the situation here the tactics suddenly cease to matter as the force parity vanishes and is replaced by a massive divide. Strategically you end up with no counter and tactics don't win wars and in this case can't even win most battles.


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Emperor if you don't even know what an ISD is get out of this debate, your lack of knowledge of the most basic Star Destroyer will be your undoing.

Bring me proof that an entire sector fleet could do more than scratch the Death Stars armor, the burden of proof is on you. Even if they see it coming, and the Tarot and Astropaths have been wrong before, what will they do to stop it? As for shields it is your job to quantify them not mine I know the Death Star can produce between 2.240E+32 and 1.214E+40 joules of energy per shot so prove that the shield will hold. You also forget that even with normal guns the Death Star could destroy entire worlds with ease.

The territories mentioned in the million worlds quote were full member worlds, there would doubtless be even more that produce goods and food that are too small or not well enough under control to mention. Even if we give each only an average of ten billion people per world, and that is a low estimate given that Coruscant with a surface area of Earth and the same density as Beijing would give 387.7 billion people to one world and would require many worlds with under 10 billion population to bring the average down.

The analogy was for tanks in the war, not overall, and imagine in the Germans could maneuver on average many weeks faster than the Russians and bypass all defenses as they do so. Imagine if they have the industrial capacity of Germany and Germany had that of Russia. Only more so, as that is the gap that exists between the two galaxies.

EDIT: How will you assassins board a ship or infiltrate a planet when they don't know anything about it, don't speak the language and can't catch a single ship to board? They will also look different act different and hold such shockingly different views that I can't believe fopr a second they have a chance at infiltrating anything even remotely important in the SW universe.

All these things you mention ARE produced, but at a very slow, meticulous rate. Also, when it comes to planets, vague figures are all that we have. I do know that there are at least a half-dozen worlds that give up several million REGIMENTS annualy. Cadia, Mordia, Macharia to name but a few.

Also, I'd judge the world pop to be relatively equal, but the MILITARY forces that are gleaned from each planet are vastly bigger figures for the Imperium.

Iron Men are strange, and rare. Mentioned obscurely in a few books (there are factories for them) let's just leave cheapy stuff out like that okay? Also, if a Primarch were involved the war would be a slaughterfest so let's just leave that out okay?

Imperium could easily choose a stand. If they go on the offensive. And all that requires is declaring a crusade. What do you mean feel each loss more keenly? They have VAST amount of reserves. This is just it. Imperium could easily block all the major hyperspace routes with thier fleets. They would not have to be omnipresent.

Also, I have yet to see your answer to Space Marines.

P.S. Didn't get the anology. You say they are the same quality, yet the russians have better quality?

Emperors Faithful wrote:All these things you mention ARE produced, but at a very slow, meticulous rate. Also, when it comes to planets, vague figures are all that we have. I do know that there are at least a half-dozen worlds that give up several million REGIMENTS annualy. Cadia, Mordia, Macharia to name but a few.

Also, I'd judge the world pop to be relatively equal, but the MILITARY forces that are gleaned from each planet are vastly bigger figures for the Imperium.

So you have numbers on the ground, in space that means nothing but more blue bloated bodies to fill the void. Even if those worlds to give up between 5 and say 20 billion men annually that is replaceable by birthrate and there is no reason Star Wars cannot do the same. You also ignore that fact that due to superior medical technology and bacta the GE's men will be able to survive things that no IoM soldier could.

Iron Men are strange, and rare. Mentioned obscurely in a few books (there are factories for them) let's just leave cheapy stuff out like that okay? Also, if a Primarch were involved the war would be a slaughterfest so let's just leave that out okay?

So elite ground forces, great, how do they help win the war in space again? If you hold space, the planet doesn't matter. That Primarch could die as his ship is breached by a turbolaser, or even by something as simple as a bad airlock never reaching the ground. If he doesn't hit the ground his skill and strength mean nothing. If he is blown away from orbit it means nothing.

Imperium could easily choose a stand. If they go on the offensive. And all that requires is declaring a crusade. What do you mean feel each loss more keenly? They have VAST amount of reserves. This is just it. Imperium could easily block all the major hyperspace routes with thier fleets. They would not have to be omnipresent.

Even if they park their ship in the lanes they don't have the capability to interdict and are thus leaving themselves open for a killing blow straight to the gut as everything flows by and kills the things they can no longer defend. If the pool in one place then everything else dies, that is what being slower means in this war. You defend Cadia, we kill off the planets that provide it food and materials, you defend those and Cadia is blown away. Either way you lose, if you can't hold it all you hold nothing against a foe that can choose every battle and will always fight your weakest known point.

Also, I have yet to see your answer to Space Marines.

A turbolaser tearing their battle barge in half and fighters killing them while they float in space. An orbital bombardment while the attack a world on the ground.

P.S. Didn't get the anology. You say they are the same quality, yet the russians have better quality?

I was saying that that what if the Russians had better things in all ways than the Germans in the same numbers and Germany had worse than what they really had in the same numbers. If we reverse the tank losses Germany now losses 7 to one in Russia the war ends very quickly. Now imagine that the Russian tanks can teleport moving many times faster and passing through lines without an defenses that can stop them. That is the situation the IoM faces.