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If a bunch of stormtroopers couldn't hold up against a bunch of 3 foot teddy bears waving sticks,how well do you think they would do against a mob of Orkz..especialy considering the stormtroopers are worse shots.

Noble713 wrote:The typical framework for debate is the M41 Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire at it's height (usually post-Yavin, so no Death Star but the Executor's are coming into service).

So Palpatine's already dead? That's no fun. Half the point is having two Emperors go at it.

-Strategic initiative lies with the GE. With hyperdrive, capital ships can cross a galaxy in a few weeks... tops. Combine that with reliable instantaneous interstellar comms and the Empire can concentrate its forces for local superiority at almost every occasion.

True, that's the Empire's biggest advantage. The Imperium would have to go on the offensive.

On the other hand, ships in Star Wars only ever engage each other at close range. That puts a huge tactical advantage with the Imperium.

(I'm sure there's some counter-argument about them wanting to engage each other at clase range or similar nonsense, but I take it for what it is. They're shown engaging in close range in the movies.)

-Production capacity lies with the GE. The shear quantity of material that went into producing the Death Star and Death Star II is something like tens of thousands of Star Destroyers EACH. Both of which were built in secret without a serious impact on the galaxy's GDP (unlike the Soviet Union's military in the Cold War).

How do you know it didn't have a serious impact on the galaxy's GDP?

-Capital ship firepower lies with the GE. Thanks to astrophysicist Curtis Saxton writing the ICS, Star Wars capital ships have been blessed with GT to TT (teraton) levels of firepower, when most major sci-fi shows/races are in the kT to MT range. I think 40k is low GT at best.

Lances can destroy continents. I've heard them thrown in the Petaton range.

-The ground capabilities of the Imperium aren't very relevant. Once SW ships are parked in orbit, any concentrated ground forces can be reduced from space and the Stormtroopers et al. only have to mop up.

They're relevant for the Imperium's boardings and invasions. Why would the Imperium sit there and let themselves be bombarded?

Any other conclusion is either poorly researched or simply ridiculous 40k fanboi spank, and I say that as probably a bigger 40k fan than SW fan. I like to think that I'm rational and mature enough to concede when one of my "pet" universes is outmatched. For example, Babylon 5 and to a lesser extent Renegade Legion (remember that game? I love that universe) are both pretty low on the totem pole of sci-fi phallus-waving.

Maybe you should drink a glass of cool water and sit down? Of course power has nothing to do with how well it's made. And I like Star Wars too, if you only count the actual movies, and not the DBZ sillyness that the books aparently contain.

You guys are forgetting the true power of the Star Wars universe.



The Mandalorians.


That is all.

Can Mandalorians defeat... Grots?

Seriously though, I think I underestimated the Empire's industrial capacity and quality of ships.

So far it looks like:

Empire..............................Imperium
Very Powerful Ships...........Very Powerful Ships
Very Fast..........................Very Slow
Very Short Ranged.............Very Long Range
More Productive Capacity...Less Productive Capacity
Less Internal Loyalty..........More Internal Loyalty

If the ships are assumed to be equal, it's likely a matter of the Empire's production versus their control over that production. That's probably not going to be something that's particularly quantifiable.

If the ships are several magnitudes away from equal, one side is going to blow the other away. I'm still leaning towards the Imperium as having the more powerful ships, from the descriptions of the lance batteries being used against planets.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:You guys are forgetting the true power of the Star Wars universe.



The Mandalorians.


That is all.

They got their arses handed to them by the Jedi, remember?

The only good Mandalorians were Jango Fett, who actually got gak done, and Canderous Ordo, who looks like Sly Marbo.

I don't think you can really compare the production capacity of the Imperium vs the Empire. I am also equally unimpressed with the Stormtrooper marksmanship program, and how they all seem to die instantly to a single lasbolt.

I also seem to recall a .gif of a star destroyer on a black background. Over a few seconds, a 40k Imperial Battleship floats up behind it. The star destroyer is about the size of one of it's medium gun turrets. If that is the actual scale, any one of the segmentum battlefleets could probably just steamroll over anything the Empire could hope to throw up in defense on their way to turn Coruscant to a blasted wasteland. Those fleets fight of Tyranid hive fleets with millions of ships. Wow.

I'd have to give the space fight to the empire hands down. Considering the fact that Star Wars ships are much smaller in comparison to 40k ships, I'd go ahead and say that the Imperium would find it difficult, if not impossible to bring any sort of weaponry to bear against them.

PS: The secret answer is that this is a nerdfight over whose fictional space dad can beat up whoever elses fictional space dad. I choose to like Warhams more. It has less incestuous undertones.

edit for spelling

chaos0xomega wrote:I'd have to give the space fight to the empire hands down. Considering the fact that Star Wars ships are much smaller in comparison to 40k ships, I'd go ahead and say that the Imperium would find it difficult, if not impossible to bring any sort of weaponry to bear against them.

Once again, grots.

Just look at what the ewoks did. It would be a massacre!

Imperial ships are huge. As in, their battleships are a few dozen kilometres long (according to sources). Not to mention the fact that a single lance blast would utterly destroy an Imperial Star Destroyer.

So as long as they can throw up enough firepower to blanket the general vincinity of space the opposing fleet happens to be in, they should easily wipeout anything not inordinately powerful and rare, like some of the Super Star Destroyers and maybe a completed Deathstar. Which is, funnily enough, exactly what they seem to base their tactics on.


I don't think even the Big'uns would take those hits very well though.

Imperial ships don't have to saturate space with firepower to win. They can just ram everyone.

The Empire has a lot of ships though.

On the other hand, how necessary are they to maintaining control of their empire? They seem to use fear as their primary motivator. Without their military present they might end up in trouble...

I've read that too. That generally speaking, most conflicts are ended just by the sight of Star Destroyer popping in and cowing a world into submission. Which is supposedly the reason that old Empie Lightninghands had such a thing for big flashy superweapons like the Death Stars and Super Star Destroyers. I've read about some gigantor Star Destroyer in one of those old "Vehicles of Star Wars" books called the Eclipse that would terrify a planet completely out of it's mind. Looks cool, but the thing was destroyed by a Warp...ur, Force Storm or some such business.


Edir: So I think that if it were a war of conquest, then you wouldn't really see widescale resistance from the Empire so much as you would see fewer major skirmishes around particular vital points, if the Empire ever figured out the effective range and speed of warp travel to predict where would be the best places to put up a fight. The Imperium has a lot of ships too.

deadratman wrote:People keep saying that clone troopers are better than space marines. What the hell?There are over one thousand chapters with 1000 men each.And that is only one imperial organization. And besides 1000 x 1000=1000000 men! Plus Imperial guardsmen are numbering billions!That could over power rebels any day!

The clones, even just your basic footslogging meatshield grunt clone variant, went through training on par--if not better-- than the training the Space Marines recieve.
The only difference is that the clones are genetically modified to rapidly age and attain maturity fast. Add in flash learning, etc and it gives an interesting advantage to the Republic(because we're NOT talking about Empire v. Imperium if we're talking about the Grand Army of the Republic. They died out by, according to alot of the background and barring a few cases like some of the Commandos and ARCs who recieved a 'cure' later on, the time the Death Star was being built) in that they can have fully trained troopers built up, in their MILLIONS, within a year.

It takes DECADES to get a Space Marine ready, and months for the basic training for a Guardsman. A Clone Commando, ARC Trooper, Imperial Marine, etc could be flashtrained with their skills and the combat experience of the host template(in this case, we'd be talking about Jango Fett. One of the few survivors of a battle against a legion of Jedi. Hard enough for you?) within a year.
Bear in mind, that even goes into vehicle crews, artillery crews, etc. Which the Imperium has to dedicate even MORE time training.

Assuming we're using Movie Marines, one Space Marine is more than a match for a dozen or more clones in open battle. Look how fast clones die in the movies; their armour is pretty much useless.

Space Marines can make a dent in a Rhino's armour. I'm pretty sure they could pulverise a clone.

Again.

Clone grunts were the ones we saw in the movies.

And you'd do well to take notice of the ones from the Airborne particularly(E3, the guys with the orange shoulderflashes that Kenobi had with him) or the 41st Elite(the swamp troopers that Yoda had with him), who shredded apart much more powerful and numerically superior armies.

But if you want a real comparison between Marines and something else, it'd have to be the ARCs or the Commandos. And the Commandos carry more than enough kit to bring down starships, pretty sure a SM wouldn't be too hard for 'em.

They aren't a complete copy. Mostly skills, training, and physical capabilities. All sorts of things like personal initiative and intelligence are borked with to make different classes of soldiers. How that matches up to how ludicrously idiosyncratic Space Marines tend to be portrayed as, I don't know. Depends on your author of choice.

For me, the comparison is guy with equivalent Warhams 40k stormtrooper training and equipment, who has all sorts of great training and specialized skills and tactical knowledge but is still a human in carapace armor, versus a guy with all the same skills and more (in certain areas, especially close quarters combat) but who is also an 8-9 foot tall in armor superhuman that spits acid, eats rocks and can pop human skulls in his bare hands for fun in a half-ton of super space age armor with a gun that shoots miniature rpg rounds that blow people in half. It takes more time to make a Space Marine, but you really get back what you invest.

If the flash training made them as good as Jango, they wouldn't have also been trained by Jango.

Jango didn't train the grunts though

The grunts got flash training, and that was it.

The Commandos and ARCs got trained by Jango and a score of other mercs(a few Mandos and some others, as far as I recall).

Noble713 wrote:EDIT: Oh, and if you get off on this sort of "my universe can beat up your universe" thing, just read Iain M. Banks' Culture novels and become a Culture fanboi, since they are pretty much at the top of the food chain. Them and races like the Xeelee.

Why don't you just say the Q Continuum and be done with it?

Kanluwen wrote:Jango didn't train the grunts though

The grunts got flash training, and that was it.

The Commandos and ARCs got trained by Jango and a score of other mercs(a few Mandos and some others, as far as I recall).

Well, that's what I'm saying. They're based off of Jango, but they're not equal to him without further training and experience.

Still good though.

As far as the normal Clones have been protrayed, I was disappointed. I thought they were supposed to be more capable and threatening then they seemed to be in the movies. The only time I remember seeing them seem any better than any other soldier shown in a Star Wars movie was when they gunned down the Jedi.

If, AT ANY POINT, there is close combat in this conflict, Imperium will win hands down. Even the Imperial Guard are gritty fighters mostly. I don't even see the point of arguing that a clone is the equal of a Spaz Marin. There is NO WAY that is the case.

Also, It is difficult to determine who has the more productive force. Imperium has whole WOLRDS dedicated to manufactureing, also Imperium is far more united. Not really held back by polotics or "rights of xenos". I have to say that through sheer savagery the Imperium would annihilate the Star Wars Universe.

Star Wars gets pwned. End of story.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:You guys are forgetting the true power of the Star Wars universe.



The Mandalorians.


That is all.

They got their arses handed to them by the Jedi, remember?

The only good Mandalorians were Jango Fett, who actually got gak done, and Canderous Ordo, who looks like Sly Marbo.

Actually Fett's clan got their asses handed to them. Or do you mean the Mandalorian Wars? I believe it took a sneaky low down superweapon to kill them off then. Then they came back. You cant dick with a Mandalorian. They kick ass and take names. Don't forget, technically all the clones are Mandalorians. Think about it, Jango Fett got his revenge with Order 66. So who's laughing?

Edit: Yes, Guardsmen Ordo, is actually present in the IG I am working on.

For more examples of why the Mandalorains are the best in any fictional universe I give you this

Emperors Faithful wrote:Wait, what what?

followed by:

whatwhat wrote:Star Wars would probably start crying once 40k stole it's lunch money.

Sheer win.

Also, cease all this LucasFilms jibber-jabber amid my fluff threads.

What?

Also, at best, mandolorians can provide sport for marinz. But Khorne Beserkers are much, much more nasty.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Death Star 2 was never even finished.

He wouldn't even get a chance to say that against eldar or somesuch.

Oh I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite opperational when your eldar friends arive.