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It's hard to set a time period for them to fighting in. I presume by 'The Imperium' we mean the Imperium of the 41st century, and by 'The Empire', we mean the Empire shortly previous to the construction and demise of the first Death Star.

If you start mucking around in the Empire storyline, you have to take into account several superweapons, from the Galaxy Gun, to the the three Death Stars, to the Sun Crusher. However, as all of these were rare occurences in the SW universe, it's better if you just discount them all together, and set the confrontation period where The Empire has just reached the heigh of it's power, but before it begins spending all its dosh on gigantic planet destroying superweapons.

I'd give them the Death Star.

It's too iconic to leave out. I'd place the Empire at the start of the first movie.

@Ketar: I'm interested in how you believe that Star Wars has a greater production rate than the Imperium?

While Star Wars may be able to come up with new weaponry and such, Imperium has WHOLE PLANETS dedicated to the creation and replacement of thier existing armements.

Also, with the Dark Troopers (did i get it right?) I think there are way more Marinz thsn their are Dark Troopers.
Also. Titans. BIG titans. Would wipe the field with Tank Battles.

If it comes to a land battle, I think the Imperium would win. Only through Naval conflicts would the Empire or whatever stand a chance. And even then, even if they could go toe to toe with the Imperiums Navy, the space marinz would honestly do soemthing crazy and luanch thier boarding craft or drop-pods onto the bridge...AND WIN.

Combat would almost ALWAYS result in victory to Imperium.

There were actually several variations of the Dark Trooper.
The original didn't have too many produced, but many of the variations were mass produced. To be perfectly honest, I'd be surprised if there weren't more copies of a armoured exoskeleton than there are space marines(considering there's only so many marines about). And if there weren't, that would be easily rectified by the setting up of new production facilities.

As to production rates, I estimate the Empire having a higher one due to the fact that they not only have mass production worlds(like the Imperium's Forge Worlds), but they have a regular habit of setting up military production facilities on just about every planet they have. You might be able to present a case for equal munitions production rates, but I would argue that the fact that the Imperium cannot physically replace much of the technology it fields once destroyed(certain types of leman russ, vortex weaponry, etc), it can't actually replenish it's losses effectively.

Warhound Titans are smaller than an AT-AT. Not only that, but the Empire makes use of light atmospheric capable spacecraft carrying large payloads of bombs capable of cracking a starships shield, never mind a titan. This isn't even including the millions of variations on tanks and artillery the Empire can field, which are all capable of inflicting damage on a titan in great enough numbers. I still judge the land battle to be even.

Emperor Class Titan?
Also, Imperium Forge worlds would be more Productive than Empire worlds. This is mainly becuase they REALLY take advantage of everything and work people to death and such, stripping worlds of resources, they are UTTERLY dedicated to production above all else. Not great for long term Ideas, but just fine for war.

Don't forget that every Imperium planet is responsible for raising, manning and maintaining thier own regiments. Easily gathering millions (if not billions) of soldiers through that alone.

I've already mentioned in my earlier post that the Imperium far outmans the Empire. Do you think that the Imperium is somehow nastier than the Empire? The people that go around blowing up planets with billions of people on? They don't just work people to death, they work thousands of alien species to death as well.

I'm very familiar with both fluff, and so far, I've heard nothing to disprove my initial judgment.

As for the emperor class titan, we both know that's a relatively rare model, and considering that smallest of star destroyers carries at least 10 AT-AT's, it's just a matter od diverting firepower accordingly. 'Size matters not', remember?

Still counting out the Mandalorians. This is a mistake.

40k is grittier and nastier becuase they have been fightnig for thier very survival for over 10,000 years. Star Wars is just too...nice.

Go read the Yuuzhan Vong saga and say that.

I'm starting the get the impression now your argument derives from, 'Spass Marines is well ard and owns everyting!', whether that's the case or not.

Imperium would win over the Empire any day with mass destruction weapons. Sure the Death Star can destroy a planet in one second but you would have to recharge the laser. Plus you would have to keep getting operators because of all the people dying of lukiemia.And is every one forgeting that the death star was destroyed by an 18-year old firing torpedos into a hole. All the imperium would hae to do is virus-bomb the planet.Plus the imperium can set up hidden research outposts because the planet would still hold together.

That post was literate, and detailed well all of the vast strategic and tactical advantages the Imperium holds over the Empire, whilst at the same time, providing a profound insight into the fluff and background of both worlds. I hereby recant everything I have said up until this point, and will now subscribe to all your posts, as such an encyclopaedic knowledge of the fluff can only serve to better my mind, and enlighten me.

You mean my post?

I don't know that an AT-AT can match what Warhounds field. They're well armored, but they only have one gun, and it's not even that powerful.

They're not called "armored transports" for nothing. Warhounds are built to kill titan-class enemies, we're pretty much comparing a destroyer to a transport here.

(Also, the higher level titans carry starship-level weaponry and shielding on them themselves. The Imperium also has air support, although they don't tend to get as much mention. I don't think that the Empire would roll over in a ground battle, I think the Imperium is favored by a decent amount.)

The Empire has the technological edge over the Imperium. Blaster arn't lasguns, but more like long range versions of the Tau weapons. I used to own a source book for Episode 2 and it described the clone assault blaster as being able to tear a 3 meter chunk out of armored targets at maximum power.

The walkers from Episode 2 carry starship class weaponry, as do the AT-HE's I believe, although few of those were made.

The most accurate comparison would be equivalent to Eldar in the 40K universe, only with more manpower. Their basic fighting forces arn't awesome and capable of destroying everything, but they are still well trained and well disciplined and have powerful weaponry and machinery to back them up.

Using the Rebel Alliance as a tool to show the Empire's weakness is also not accurate. Remove Luke Skywalker and what do you have? The Empire winning. Without the Jedi the RA couldn't have pulled it together. The Imperium has only had one instance of rebellion on such scale and it ruined the Imperium, though granted it was only because of the Space Marines that the destruction was so widespread.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:The Empire has the technological edge over the Imperium. Blaster arn't lasguns, but more like long range versions of the Tau weapons. I used to own a source book for Episode 2 and it described the clone assault blaster as being able to tear a 3 meter chunk out of armored targets at maximum power.

I don't know what a "clone assault blaster" is, but the blaster rifles used by stormtroopers in the movies were doing nothing of sort.

The walkers from Episode 2 carry starship class weaponry, as do the AT-HE's I believe, although few of those were made.

Starship class is relative, though. And not necessarily very descriptive, considering how small the fighters in Star Wars can end up.

The most accurate comparison would be equivalent to Eldar in the 40K universe, only with more manpower. Their basic fighting forces arn't awesome and capable of destroying everything, but they are still well trained and well disciplined and have powerful weaponry and machinery to back them up.

What? Watch the movies again. The stormtroopers aren't flipping and killing everything, even when they're not against Jedi.

You seriously underestimate the amount of training the Imperial Guard can go through as well. Cadians are raised to fight from birth. Catachans live on hell. How are the Empire's troops trained better? Do they live for hundreds of years like the Eldar do?

Using the Rebel Alliance as a tool to show the Empire's weakness is also not accurate. Remove Luke Skywalker and what do you have? The Empire winning. Without the Jedi the RA couldn't have pulled it together. The Imperium has only had one instance of rebellion on such scale and it ruined the Imperium, though granted it was only because of the Space Marines that the destruction was so widespread.

They seemed pretty bothered by the rebels prior to Luke showing up, though.

Maybe they wouldn't have been destroyed by them, but Palpatine's apprentice was personally working on fighting them.

Then there's the matter of the need to build the Deathstar to intimidate planetary populations. Whether or not those populations are actually affiliated with the Rebel Alliance, it shows a real weakness in the Empire's hold over the rest of the galaxy.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:The Empire has the technological edge over the Imperium. Blaster arn't lasguns, but more like long range versions of the Tau weapons. I used to own a source book for Episode 2 and it described the clone assault blaster as being able to tear a 3 meter chunk out of armored targets at maximum power.

I don't know what a "clone assault blaster" is, but the blaster rifles used by stormtroopers in the movies were doing nothing of sort.

Movies=Black Library. Star War EU= 40K universe. What the movies show, and what the background describes are two different things. Often in the books it is far bloodier than the movies. Consider the movies were also products of the 40's/50's/60's action movies with infinite magazines, nazis with no aim, and furries. The books are what we have to use when comparing the two universes. Stormtroopers are very much elite in the books. Unless they are fighting Jedi or main characters, and as all villains, they can't handle them.

The walkers from Episode 2 carry starship class weaponry, as do the AT-HE's I believe, although few of those were made.

Starship class is relative, though. And not necessarily very descriptive, considering how small the fighters in Star Wars can end up.

Beginning of episode three when they are flying through the battle, do you remember the beam shot from the hanger of the Assault Ship? It is the same thing on the back of those walkers. It blew the frigate in half, pretty powerful if you ask me.

The most accurate comparison would be equivalent to Eldar in the 40K universe, only with more manpower. Their basic fighting forces arn't awesome and capable of destroying everything, but they are still well trained and well disciplined and have powerful weaponry and machinery to back them up.

What? Watch the movies again. The stormtroopers aren't flipping and killing everything, even when they're not against Jedi.

You seriously underestimate the amount of training the Imperial Guard can go through as well. Cadians are raised to fight from birth. Catachans live on hell. How are the Empire's troops trained better? Do they live for hundreds of years like the Eldar do?

Trained by Mandalorian supercommando (the toughest beings in the galaxy), conditioned to be unquestioningly obedient, good fighters in the books. I think you underestimate the clones .

Using the Rebel Alliance as a tool to show the Empire's weakness is also not accurate. Remove Luke Skywalker and what do you have? The Empire winning. Without the Jedi the RA couldn't have pulled it together. The Imperium has only had one instance of rebellion on such scale and it ruined the Imperium, though granted it was only because of the Space Marines that the destruction was so widespread.

They seemed pretty bothered by the rebels prior to Luke showing up.

Maybe they wouldn't have been destroyed by them, but Palpatine's apprentice was personally working on destroying them. That implies enough importance.

Then there's the matter of the need to build the Deathstar to intimidate planetary populations. Whether or not those populations are actually affiliated with the Rebel Alliance, it shows a real weakness in the Empire's hold over the rest of the galaxy.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Movies=Black Library. Star War EU= 40K universe. What the movies show, and what the background describes are two different things. Often in the books it is far bloodier than the movies. Consider the movies were also products of the 40's/50's/60's action movies with infinite magazines, nazis with no aim, and furries. The books are what we have to use when comparing the two universes. Stormtroopers are very much elite in the books. Unless they are fighting Jedi or main characters, and as all villains, they can't handle them.

What are you talking about? The movies are the highest form of canon in the Star Wars; George Lucas himself wrote and directed them.

Yes, the movies were limited by special effects, but the setting was made for the movies. That the movies are limited in what they can show is irrelevent, as the setting was made for the movies themselves, and thus is shaped to reflect that. It's like land battles, and assault in 40k. Yeah, they could just shoot at each other with guns from long distances, or seige each other with ships, but the setting was built around a game, and that game involves ground battles with close combat. The setting is what it is.

If you want to argue based on books that say blasters can blow up boulders, feel free, but we'd be talking past each other. For me, Star Wars is based off of the movies first and foremost, and I think that's true for the majority of the population as well.

Beginning of episode three when they are flying through the battle, do you remember the beam shot from the hanger of the Assault Ship? It is the same thing on the back of those walkers. It blew the frigate in half, pretty powerful if you ask me.

I don't remember that move all that well, it was almost too crammed with stuff, but from your description is does sound pretty powerful.

(Wait, are you talking about those six-legged ones, or are those a different AT?)

Trained by Mandalorian supercommando (the toughest beings in the galaxy), conditioned to be unquestioningly obedient, good fighters in the books. I think you underestimate the clones .

Clones?

I thought you were talking about the stormtroopers. Yeah, I'll admit the clones were very well trained.

Sith being Sith, and the people of the 40K are far less independent and concerned with personal rights. If Palpatine had ruled the 40K galaxy he would have found it much more to hs liking. In fact, in 40K things happen that would make Palpatine go: 'Wait, we can't do that!'.

He probably should have declared himself a god. He can strike people down with lightning, it might have caught on eventually.

Okay it seems like people are ignorant about the technical end of Star Wars here so I'm going to start filling people in. I've just skimmed so feel free to let me know if I've missed any key points.

First off how is the Imperium getting to the Star Wars universe? Wormhole, are the galaxies merged somehow, did they send a fleet on a voyage that juts reached the Wars universe? It makes a huge difference.

On the production end Star Wars wins big, they have factories, as shown in Episode II, that can, on a single line, produce a battle droid every second. That equals 5,184,000 droids in a day if they are droid run factories operating 24 hours a day, over a year that is 1,892,160,000 from a single line in a single factory.

For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.

In space the Empire has the advantage of crossing the galaxy in under a day, as evidenced when Palpatine saved Anakin at the end of Episode III or by the attack on the Death Star in Episdoe VI. This is no small matter as they can now choose targets and force the fight on their terms, and if you can win in space the ground game doesn't matter.

The firepower is also similarly lopsided with a mile long ISD packing the same punch as a six-mile long ship from the Imperium. While we can't say whose ships are tougher, if I am not mistaken a battle barges shields only cover their front arc and some of their sides and must drop to fire a bow weapon or broadside. I may be wrong on this point though.

I also see people saying that Stormtroopers suck, that is untrue, first off many of their 'deaths' on screen could have been due to shock as many people pass out even after a bullet is stopped by a bullet proof vest. This is further supported by the fact that we never see any penetration of their armor when hit by a blaster and in most other cases we see chunks blown from walls. We also have a seen from the Young Jedi Knights books where a stormtrooper is hit by a spear and thrown across a room, he survives and his armor only takes the faintest nick. It has also failed to noted that stormtroopers are not the main fighting force of the Empire, while not shown as often their is the entire Imperial Army to deal with.

EDIT: Some may complain of accuracy issues, but in many cases they were firing from the hip, which is not conducive to accuracy but rather to suppressing fire. On a cushy assignment IE the Death Star, or were the rear guard and reserve force, as seen in Episode VI when the rebels down the shields. For the types of fighting they were doing they are more accurate than a modern special operations team, however due to the way Hollywood portrays gunfights on screen the numbers seem far lower than they really are.

Now some will claim that Psykers and the warp will save the Imperium, and that may be a valid point. However we must also note that in Dark Empire, Palpatine can destroy a vessel tougher than a Super Star Destroyer with a force storm and use the force to teleport an ISD over some great distance. The force has also been shown to protect and ring balance to the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy being true and having Anakin bring ballance to the force by killing Emperor Paplatine.

Once again if I've missed a point or something has already been debated to an end excuse me as I have merely skimmed this topic.

EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.

EDIT 2: Star Wars does have capital scale ground vehicles see the link here for one such example: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/XR-85_tank_droid

@Norade: That was awesome. Will you have my babies?!

djphranq, as a man that is sadly impossible. I will however accept your thanks and point you to bbs.stardestroyer.net for more Star Wars information.

EDIT: This is a thread from that topic on this very debate, they also have a very good set of calculations on 40k weapons in the other Sci-Fi section. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=60102


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To those saying that the Death Star was a huge money sink for the Empire, it wasn't it was a small enough project to be kept hidden and supplied by one transport company. It's destruction was due to fluke and the shot would likely not be made by a far larger 40k fighter, which are scaled to match a Star Wars Corvette and would be easier for the surface turbolasers to hit.

For those claiming the Imperium has an easier time destroying worlds look up a Base Delta Zero attack that a single ISD can do in under a day and a small group can accomplish in under four hours. They have also possessed the ability to make world devastators and large scale super lasers since well before they were first deployed.

For those who think that the Imperium holds more worlds or citizens than Star Wars think again a fraction of the Galaxy is held by the Imperium and the vast majority of the universe is held by the Empire and later the New Republic. They are said to have a million core worlds and many more small worlds as well. Using a conservative average of 10 billion people a world (when Coruscant has more like a Trillion or more) and 1.5 million worlds we get a total population of 15,000,000,000,000,000 people in the Galactic Empire, more would surely join them in the face of the Imperium. If only 1 in 100 were trained to fight that would give them 150,000,000,000,000 organic soldiers not to mention the droids as I have pointed out above.

EDIT: By the end of the war cloning techniques designed to produce thousands of fully flash trained clones per week were ready and working and could have been expanded as needed. Thoughh the time frame for doing so is beyond me.

Norade wrote:First off how is the Imperium getting to the Star Wars universe? Wormhole, are the galaxies merged somehow, did they send a fleet on a voyage that juts reached the Wars universe? It makes a huge difference.

In my world, the galaxies were merged some how. The easiest way to do this would probably to put one on top of the other.

I'd also assume that the warp permeates the Star Wars galaxy (and is as moody as it is the Milky Way), and that the Empire knows the Milky Way well enough to make jumps in (if not as well as they may in their own galaxy; more like jumping around the outskirts).

Finally, neither side is under attack by outside factions, but neither side has the absolute loyalty of their empire. This means no orks or tyranids for the Imperium, and it means no chaos marines or malicious gods either. However, the warp remains as dangerous to psykers as ever, and navigating the warp isn't any easier, as this would give the Imperium way more capabilities than they rightfully should have. The Rebel Alliance and Jedis also don't exist. However, there is still as much rebellion and dissent as there was before, and both sides will have to maintain control of their empire through some manner or let the worlds defect.

(Once again, my scenario, anyone's free to come up with a different one.)

On the production end Star Wars wins big, they have factories, as shown in Episode II, that can, on a single line, produce a battle droid every second. That equals 5,184,000 droids in a day if they are droid run factories operating 24 hours a day, over a year that is 1,892,160,000 from a single line in a single factory.

That's assuming they have all the pieces available; the factory was just the assemply of the droid.

Also, battle droid legions aren't used by the Empire, so that's a question of era.

For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.

Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.

However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.

In space the Empire has the advantage of crossing the galaxy in under a day, as evidenced when Palpatine saved Anakin at the end of Episode III or by the attack on the Death Star in Episdoe VI. This is no small matter as they can now choose targets and force the fight on their terms, and if you can win in space the ground game doesn't matter.

That depends somewhat on what they know of the space, but even if takes a week that's immensely faster than the Imperium over such distances.

(Barring the times when ships arrive in the past, of course. But they'd just as soon turn up a few centuries later...)

The firepower is also similarly lopsided with a mile long ISD packing the same punch as a six-mile long ship from the Imperium. While we can't say whose ships are tougher, if I am not mistaken a battle barges shields only cover their front arc and some of their sides and must drop to fire a bow weapon or broadside. I may be wrong on this point though.

This one I have my doubts on. Lances level mountain ranges.

EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.

Well, you have to clairify what you're talking about if you're going to do a discussion like this.

I'm only arguing from the perspective of the movies being the foremost

I also see people saying that Stormtroopers suck, that is untrue, first off many of their 'deaths' on screen could have been due to shock as many people pass out even after a bullet is stopped by a bullet proof vest. This is further supported by the fact that we never see any penetration of their armor when hit by a blaster and in most other cases we see chunks blown from walls. We also have a seen from the Young Jedi Knights books where a stormtrooper is hit by a spear and thrown across a room, he survives and his armor only takes the faintest nick. It has also failed to noted that stormtroopers are not the main fighting force of the Empire, while not shown as often their is the entire Imperial Army to deal with.

Even if they're just going into shock, they're still incapacitated. I always figured the black burn mark was the penetration, though.

I don't ever remember having seen chunks blown out of walls, at least not in the original trilogy. I could double check though, that'd bump the blaster's power up a notch.

Now some will claim that Psykers and the warp will save the Imperium, and that may be a valid point. However we must also note that in Dark Empire, Palpatine can destroy a vessel tougher than a Super Star Destroyer with a force storm and use the force to teleport an ISD over some great distance. The force has also been shown to protect and ring balance to the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy being true and having Anakin bring ballance to the force by killing Emperor Paplatine.

I think psykers may be a powerful asset; aside from being necessary for travel and communication, their predictive abilities are a huge asset against an enemy as fast the Empire, and they can also act sort of a catch-all problem solver.

Psykers have never been the big guns of the Imperium, though. Too dangerous, too unreliable. Now, if it was some sort of "universe vs universe" thing it'd be another story, as the warp would be on their side, but as it stands they're not a game winner.

Once again if I've missed a point or something has already been debated to an end excuse me as I have merely skimmed this topic.

There's the issue of ranges in ship to ship combat. As much of a difference in speed there is between the Empire and the Imperium, is the difference in their ranges of engagement. As befitting a setting made for a movie, ships in star wars only fight each other within hundreds of kilometers. At least, the ones in the movies do.

In contrast, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a "few thousand kilometers".

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Norade wrote:First off how is the Imperium getting to the Star Wars universe? Wormhole, are the galaxies merged somehow, did they send a fleet on a voyage that juts reached the Wars universe? It makes a huge difference.

In my world, the galaxies were merged some how. The easiest way to do this would probably to put one on top of the other.

I'd also assume that the warp permeates the Star Wars galaxy (and is as moody as it is the Milky Way), and that the Empire knows the Milky Way well enough to make jumps in (if not as well as they may in their own galaxy; more like jumping around the outskirts).

Finally, neither side is under attack by outside factions, but neither side has the absolute loyalty of their empire. This means no orks or tyranids for the Imperium, and it means no chaos marines or malicious gods either. However, the warp remains as dangerous to psykers as ever, and navigating the warp isn't any easier, as this would give the Imperium way more capabilities than they rightfully should have. The Rebel Alliance and Jedis also don't exist. However, there is still as much rebellion and dissent as there was before, and both sides will have to maintain control of their empire through some manner or let the worlds defect.

(Once again, my scenario, anyone's free to come up with a different one.)

Excellent, that seems the best way to do things.

On the production end Star Wars wins big, they have factories, as shown in Episode II, that can, on a single line, produce a battle droid every second. That equals 5,184,000 droids in a day if they are droid run factories operating 24 hours a day, over a year that is 1,892,160,000 from a single line in a single factory.

That's assuming they have all the pieces available; the factory was just the assemply of the droid.

Also, battle droid legions aren't used by the Empire, so that's a question of era.

They do use droids, but not on the battlefield for fear of reviving memories of the clone wars. In a total war scenario I see no troubles with using them again. They also use large droid vehicles, probe droids, and the Dark Trooper project as examples of limited droid use by the military.

For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.

Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.

However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.

In space the Empire has the advantage of crossing the galaxy in under a day, as evidenced when Palpatine saved Anakin at the end of Episode III or by the attack on the Death Star in Episdoe VI. This is no small matter as they can now choose targets and force the fight on their terms, and if you can win in space the ground game doesn't matter.

That depends somewhat on what they know of the space, but even if takes a week that's immensely faster than the Imperium over such distances.

(Barring the times when ships arrive in the past, of course. But they'd just as soon turn up a few centuries later...)

Will they be able to see the Astronomicon at in the SW galaxy? As I recall it has dimmed recently and some sectors have been cut off due to this.

The firepower is also similarly lopsided with a mile long ISD packing the same punch as a six-mile long ship from the Imperium. While we can't say whose ships are tougher, if I am not mistaken a battle barges shields only cover their front arc and some of their sides and must drop to fire a bow weapon or broadside. I may be wrong on this point though.

This one I have my doubts on. Lances level mountain ranges.

EDIT: Clearly Marshal2Crusaders is ignorant of Star Wars Cannon, the movies override the books and the books override gameplay. It is also stated that the books show larger and bloodier battles than the movies, this is false the movies show ISD's being used to chase smuggling vessels, where as in the books that galaxy's fate can hang on the balance of a few such vessels. They also make things take far longer to build than they should, especially seeing as the second DS was built in under a year in secret.

Well, you have to clairify what you're talking about if you're going to do a discussion like this.

I'm only arguing from the perspective of the movies being the foremost.

Then we agree, however offical Lucas Arts cannon is movies > books > gameplay.

I also see people saying that Stormtroopers suck, that is untrue, first off many of their 'deaths' on screen could have been due to shock as many people pass out even after a bullet is stopped by a bullet proof vest. This is further supported by the fact that we never see any penetration of their armor when hit by a blaster and in most other cases we see chunks blown from walls. We also have a seen from the Young Jedi Knights books where a stormtrooper is hit by a spear and thrown across a room, he survives and his armor only takes the faintest nick. It has also failed to noted that stormtroopers are not the main fighting force of the Empire, while not shown as often their is the entire Imperial Army to deal with.

Even if they're just going into shock, they're still incapacitated. I always figured the black burn mark was the penetration, though.

I don't ever remember having seen chunks blown out of walls, at least not in the original trilogy. I could double check though, that'd bump the blaster's power up a notch.

See the Cantina scene in Episode 1, not Han v Greedo, but when the Stormtroopers shoot. That is IIRC, it has been a while.

Now some will claim that Psykers and the warp will save the Imperium, and that may be a valid point. However we must also note that in Dark Empire, Palpatine can destroy a vessel tougher than a Super Star Destroyer with a force storm and use the force to teleport an ISD over some great distance. The force has also been shown to protect and ring balance to the galaxy as evidenced by the son of suns prophecy being true and having Anakin bring ballance to the force by killing Emperor Paplatine.

I think psykers may be a powerful asset; aside from being necessary for travel and communication, their predictive abilities are a huge asset against an enemy as fast the Empire, and they can also act sort of a catch-all problem solver.

Psykers have never been the big guns of the Imperium, though. Too dangerous, too unreliable. Now, if it was some sort of "universe vs universe" thing it'd be another story, as the warp would be on their side, but as it stands they're not a game winner.

Some people like to claim that so I addressed it straight away.

There's the issue of ranges in ship to ship combat. As much of a difference in speed there is between the Empire and the Imperium, is the difference in their ranges of engagement. As befitting a setting made for a movie, ships in star wars only fight each other within hundreds of kilometers. At least, the ones in the movies do.

In contrast, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a few thousand kilometers.

In books they can hit targets on a predictable path from 10 light minutes out. In many movie scenes the battle dictates the range such as the DS trench run, the Falcon vs. Ties, were either in tight or they were fighting under heavy ECM. At Endor they we're order to close in to avoid giving the DS any clear shots.

Sly. Marbo.

40k Wins

I SOOO want to put all of this thread on the back of a T-Shirt

[sarcasm]Thank you for the informative post Dreadwinter, I shall have to post a many page rebuttal to counter your masterful use of the words 'Sly' 'Marbo' and 'Wins' and then decipher what 40k could refer to. [/sarcasm]

Really, why is it so hard to put some thought into a post...?

Norade wrote:They do use droids, but not on the battlefield for fear of reviving memories of the clone wars. In a total war scenario I see no troubles with using them again. They also use large droid vehicles, probe droids, and the Dark Trooper project as examples of limited droid use by the military.

Ah, I know they use a lot of droids, just not the huge armies of them, a la Phantom Menace.

Saying they would start producing them is awfully speculative, though. How do you know they wouldn't be even more worried about the political repercussions? How do you know they can get the facilities producing them in sizable quantities fast enough? (Without sacrificing their other industrial capabilities, might I add?) How do you know Palpatine would trust them?

I mean, it's kind of like speculating about the Starchild or something. Yeah, he could be reborn and unite humanity, and cause all of the Empire's planets to defect, and destroy fifty battlecrusiers with his awesome abilities, but the Imperium doesn't have the Starchild, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the versus thread to give them abilities they don't have at the start of the battle.

For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.

Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.

However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.

Will they be able to see the Astronomicon at in the SW galaxy? As I recall it has dimmed recently and some sectors have been cut off due to this.

If the galaxies were on top of one another, the Imperium would be able to see a little less in the Star Wars galaxy than they could in their own, as it's now going up a little bit in addition to out.

See the Cantina scene in Episode 1, not Han v Greedo, but when the Stormtroopers shoot. That is IIRC, it has been a while.

Eh, I don't want to go try and get my VCR to work, and I can't find my DVD.

In books they can hit targets on a predictable path from 10 light minutes out. In many movie scenes the battle dictates the range such as the DS trench run, the Falcon vs. Ties, were either in tight or they were fighting under heavy ECM. At Endor they we're order to close in to avoid giving the DS any clear shots.

Well... in space something going in a truly predictable path would be hard to miss. After all, nothing's really influencing the shot, it's just a lot of trig.

The scene where the Millennium Falcon needs to wait for the Tie Fighter to get in range seems to be a big one. The Falcon certainly isn't going to have the same capabilities as a capital ship, but at the same time, it's the same technology in play. The slow speed of the bolts is also going to be a factor; with astronomical distances, those things are going way to slow to hit anything with some maneuverability.


I think whatever side of the fight you favor, though, it would be close. (Unless, of course, the weapon power actually happened to be way out of scale, which isn't an impossibility.) Either one may actually end up dead not too soon after the other (Empire unable to maintain control with its lack of military enforcement, Imperium unable to replenish losses before orks come back fer unnuva go, etc).

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Norade wrote:They do use droids, but not on the battlefield for fear of reviving memories of the clone wars. In a total war scenario I see no troubles with using them again. They also use large droid vehicles, probe droids, and the Dark Trooper project as examples of limited droid use by the military.

Ah, I know they use a lot of droids, just not the huge armies of them, a la Phantom Menace.

Saying they would start producing them is awfully speculative, though. How do you know they wouldn't be even more worried about the political repercussions? How do you know they can get the facilities producing them in sizable quantities fast enough? (Without sacrificing their other industrial capabilities, might I add?) How do you know Palpatine would trust them?

I mean, it's kind of like speculating about the Starchild or something. Yeah, he could be reborn and unite humanity, and cause all of the Empire's planets to defect, and destroy fifty battlecrusiers with his awesome abilities, but the Imperium doesn't have the Starchild, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the versus thread to give them abilities they don't have at the start of the battle.

That is true, but unlike the Starchild debate I am giving them nothing new. They have many high quality armed security droids already in production that could be drafted. You also must consider that the production in the Clone Wars was done by a bunch of big corporations with limited government support. You can only imagine what would happen if the empire built a droid to make droids making factories (This capacity is later demonstrated by World Devestators, but available and used well before that.) The resource drain would also be limited as they send these factories to an unused asteroid field and they mow down and pump out droids. The sheer scale of an entire galaxy makes producing droids in numbers a trivial task.

For star ships things are even worse, they can build a Mon Calamari in six months and those are far less standardized than an ISD and done at a civilian shipyard, however even assuming they can only build them that fast it will be many times faster than the Imperium builds things. As a standing fleet they also have 25,000 ISD's with many more smaller supports ships from Cruisers, down to Frigates, and Corvettes, and hundreds if not more larger ships such as the Executor and her sister ships.

Yep, the Empire has a lot of production in that regard. I would guess that Mon Calamari is also partially an assembly of pre-fabricated parts? It's impressive either way.

However, 25,000 ISDs isn't hugely outmatching the Imperium. They're outnumbered, definately, but not by a huge amount.

Ketara wrote:Go read the Yuuzhan Vong saga and say that.

I'm starting the get the impression now your argument derives from, 'Spass Marines is well ard and owns everyting!', whether that's the case or not.

I think the point is that while, yes, the empire has dealt with a few things on a similar plane in terms of grittiness and brutal warfare, the Imperium of Man does it just about everyday like it's nothing. What a space marine may lack in intelligence and tactical intelligence they make up for tenfold in brute force, true power, mansauce, and experience. we're talking soldiers who are HUNDREDS of years old at least.

Mandalorians kick ass, but the guard are nearly limitless. Assuming the mandalorians don't sleep, i don't see a clear victory from them anytime soon.

Cyclonic Bombs. I don't need to say anymore. (except for those of you who don't know what those are. they literally make the atmoshpere around you catch on fire. if they have some sort of atmospheric generator on any of the death stars, it'll be gone. if not, shoot it down before their sensors even realise the imperial ships exist)

Then, there's the chaos marines. they would win through sheer brutality, and to the star wars empire, sheer weirdness. it's an enemy unlike anything they've ever encountered. terrifying little beasts growing out of their arms and bodies, altering their weapons and gear, possessing their bodies, driving them mad, opening rifts into what they could only describe as hell, stuff the Imperium has dealt with for ages.

THEN there are the Tyranids. Assuming that they destroy the imperium (though, I personally can't see why. I've already had this argument between 40k and a star wars fanatic a long time ago, and i won, multiple times.) they'd have to deal with biological monsters that keep changing. the closest they had to that was some alien planet with some bugs of about the same height as a sentinel. (you probably know what i'm talking about ketara. that weird jungle place that was distinctly star-wars alien style, lots of bright colors. the most well known reference to it was in the *third* movie according the *earlier* trilogy where the clone troopers killed the twi'lek who used dual-lightsabers on the planet i'm trying to describe)

lastly, Eldar. they'd sense as close to chaos as the empire gets, which is palpatine/darth vader. Ulthwe would see them coming a million miles away like they did with horus during the heresey, and Abbadon during the 13th black crusade. they would NEVER let this happen. they'd send the orks on them. ALL of them. I dunno. they'd find a way.

The dark eldar would just have new toys to play with, and the T'au would assimilate them into the greater good, i.e. concentration camps after they got the kroot to hand their asses to them.

The Empire has a lack of long term infiltration methods. they have short-term cloaking devices that make you mostly invisible, which works incredibly well for short situations. IMHO, callidus assassins beats that hands down. so here we are at the temple assassins. after the callidus i'd go for the eversors. one eversor assassin killed 130 people with a plastic butterknife and a wooden spoon. the Culexus assassins, assuming the force powers are of the same property as to warp powers, would easily infiltrate into where ever the hell palpatine was hiding and beat the living gak out of the old man. same applies to Darth Vader. Vindicares would be useful on the battlefield just for taking out the commanders. I can't think of any better use. A culexus coupled with a callidus invading any of their superweapon-spaceshippy things would end the problems of super-weapons immediatley.

I don't think they're prepared for this kind of universe. they have gritty wars with people on equal footing. the imperium has gritty warfare with giant bloodthirsty demons, acid spitting bio-monsters, hedonistic hardcore S&M pirate elves and undead omnicidal robots. the imperial NUNS are their own fighting force. the bar for badass is raised in 40k.

On the subject of battle droids..

Why wouldn't Palpatine trust them?
He was the one ordering them, originally. He also far overstated the threat to the Republic as JUST his way to get the Grand Army of the Republic made.
What would stop him from just telling the Trade Federation/Separatists to step up production and stop harassing his clones?

Kanluwen wrote:On the subject of battle droids..

Why wouldn't Palpatine trust them?
He was the one ordering them, originally. He also far overstated the threat to the Republic as JUST his way to get the Grand Army of the Republic made.
What would stop him from just telling the Trade Federation/Separatists to step up production and stop harassing his clones?

Palpsy actually had a droid fetish but was too embarassed to have the others in the senate find out so he made it look like he didn't like them by having them fight clones... his other fetish. Star Wars is actually full of fetishes.