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YMTC debates are usually heated due to the same reason, one person raising points and the other using a wall of ignorance to try and debate them. That will raise the hackles of the person putting in effort every time.

Modquisition on:
It can be considered violating Rule #: BE POLITE.

If posters cannot argue the merits of an issue in a polite manner then they should refrain from posting in the specific thread or agree to disagree. This is designed to insure that all posters have a positive experience having fun.

Beyond that you run the risk of running afoul of the Moderators, who frankly are not used to handling problems in the background forum. We can discuss this privately if you so desire.

But again this is a public warning to all posters. In case you're not aware, I'm the cranky Moderator and am surprised I'm having to look at something in the background section. You might consider that and go back to posting in the casual semi-humorous manner that has been occurring in the first 4 or so pages.

I will be monitoring this thread in the future.

Modquisition off:





Automatically Appended Next Post:

deadratman wrote:
Yes but technically we are not debating each force.We are debating where lasers come from or who can boil an ocean. And were actually talking about The Empire and the Imperium.

And the deadratboy cuts to the heart of the matter. Lets not get our panties in a wad when discussing who has more Fzoggle: stormtroopers or, er, stormtroopers

Yeah guys. Come on. There is no reason for language like that!

In the future I will try to express myself in a less confrontational way, however a serious debate has been started and it would a disservice to end it here over a few insults both ways. Though if I don't receive any numbers from Ork soon I will have to call this debate in my favor as I don't fancy beating on a wall of ignorance forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any debate about two empires will be broken down by military might at some point. To understand military might we must know what it can do and how it works. Just because some people want an uninformed no numbers debate that will solve nothing doesn't mean I do.

Yaeh. I am pretty sure any thing in the 40k univerese would own.

Empire<Imperium
Rebel Alliance><IG
What ever race Jar Jar is><Orks
Geonosisians(bug guys)><Tyranids
Droids><Necrons
Basic Dark side><Chaos
Fruity peace-loving Republic><Tau empire>

Norade wrote:Cannon is concerning the evidence that can be used for a side and it has been decided that the order of priority goes as follows Movies > Books > Gameplay. If something in a book is not directly contradicted in a movie it stands as being true. As for me proving that Star Wars vessels are capable to producing massive firepower BDZ attacks, asteroid destruction (by their lightest guns), combined with figures for reactor output, which could be directed from either guns or through the main drives to great effect, is proof of their firepower. Now why don't you go do some math for the IoM instead of mounting baseless attacks on my supported position with your ignorance.

The asteroids could be destroyed by several megatons of force. That's powerful, but it's more like a nuclear bomb than a continent destroying superblast.

Seriously thicken your skin, and learn to do some research of your own.

Did you miss the part that states that edible fish can be found 100m down in water and could be found as deep as 1000m down? Also 1000m =/= an entire ocean. You also ignore the fact that the atmosphere was blasted away, not burned away by a virus bomb but expelled away by explosive force. Your cherry picking of examples is growing tiresome

"Blasted" is pretty vague. Considering that the hand weapons in the Empire are called "blasters".

Also, the upper third of the ocean is still not fisheries. Places where fish are caught or bred are fisheries.

Furthermore, it's ridiculous to claim that it would require boiling the water to kill all of them off. And even if they could boil oceans, under what time frame and with how many ships?

You also fail to mention Caamas in your example so let me post that:

'records are sketchy about this operation, but it has been established that it was performed shortly after the Clone Wars by forces loyal to Emperor Palpatine. There were no living witnesses to the attack, which means that there were no survivors anywhere on the entire planet (not even animals, plants, or people in buried shelters, according to the official records). This meant that the only surviving Caamasi were those who had been off-world during the attack. It is also known that the attack took less than a day, although we don't know how much less, and the size and composition of the attacking force is still unknown. Moreover, we also learned that the environmental devastation was so great that even after 40 years, it would have actually been easier to terraform a barren planet to Caamas's original specifications than it would have been to restore Caamas itself! This suggests that Caamas was massively irradiated, or that so much of its surface material was blasted up into the upper atmosphere that it rendered normal terraforming operations impractical. It was effectively destroyed as a habitable world, although not as literally or permanently as Alderaan.'

That's pretty devastating.

However, that's with an unknown force, and it took a while (not a huge amount of time, but a dozen hours of non-stop bombardment is quite a bit).

Cloaking, you are ignorant and unwilling read what I have written so let me try again, ECM is active jamming of communication and senors and disruption of electronics via EMP not cloaking. Also the burden of proof is on you to prove that your sensors would work, not on me to show that they wouldn't. Juts because you have done no research and have taken to attacking my claims with no evidence or support for your own side and have taken to cherry picking my examples as opposed to showing examples, with math to back them up, shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the knowledge needed to carry on this debate.

How is the burden of proof on me?

You're just making up rules as it suits you. How do you know an EMP can get through a void shield? Or a Battleship's hull? Or that it's effective against AI based on organic components?

deadratman wrote:Yaeh. I am pretty sure any thing in the 40k univerese would own.

Empire<Imperium
Rebel Alliance><IG
What ever race Jar Jar is><Orks
Geonosisians(bug guys)><Tyranids
Droids><Necrons
Basic Dark side><Chaos
Fruity peace-loving Republic><Tau empire>

Jawas><Squats

Who are Eldar like?>

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Norade wrote:Cannon is concerning the evidence that can be used for a side and it has been decided that the order of priority goes as follows Movies > Books > Gameplay. If something in a book is not directly contradicted in a movie it stands as being true. As for me proving that Star Wars vessels are capable to producing massive firepower BDZ attacks, asteroid destruction (by their lightest guns), combined with figures for reactor output, which could be directed from either guns or through the main drives to great effect, is proof of their firepower. Now why don't you go do some math for the IoM instead of mounting baseless attacks on my supported position with your ignorance.

The asteroids could be destroyed by several megatons of force. That's powerful, but it's more like a nuclear bomb than a continent destroying superblast.

To be fair "asteroid" is a nebulous size there. It would take substantially more energy to wump the asteroids the SD was shooting in ESB vs. a multiple hundred mile long rock.

Its sad, I've only seen ESB about 85 times (no joke). I'll have to get a refresher whilst the wife is off on her leadership training this weekend (after shooting of course). Need to watch soemthing whilst work on the old bloodcrusher conversions...

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Norade wrote:Cannon is concerning the evidence that can be used for a side and it has been decided that the order of priority goes as follows Movies > Books > Gameplay. If something in a book is not directly contradicted in a movie it stands as being true. As for me proving that Star Wars vessels are capable to producing massive firepower BDZ attacks, asteroid destruction (by their lightest guns), combined with figures for reactor output, which could be directed from either guns or through the main drives to great effect, is proof of their firepower. Now why don't you go do some math for the IoM instead of mounting baseless attacks on my supported position with your ignorance.

The asteroids could be destroyed by several megatons of force. That's powerful, but it's more like a nuclear bomb than a continent destroying superblast.

Yes, but it shows a well defined lower limit that the books later expanded upon to show much wider spread destruction.

Seriously thicken your skin, and learn to do some research of your own.

I'm juts not going to touch this anymore.

Did you miss the part that states that edible fish can be found 100m down in water and could be found as deep as 1000m down? Also 1000m =/= an entire ocean. You also ignore the fact that the atmosphere was blasted away, not burned away by a virus bomb but expelled away by explosive force. Your cherry picking of examples is growing tiresome

"Blasted" is pretty vague. Considering that the hand weapons in the Empire are called "blasters".

Also, the upper third of the ocean is still not fisheries. Places where fish are caught or bred are fisheries.

Furthermore, it's ridiculous to claim that it would require boiling the water to kill all of them off. And even if they could boil oceans, under what time frame and with how many ships?

As was listed in my link it would take about four hours for single vessel and less for even a modest fleet. I will provide a quote:

'First and foremost, even if we assume that a Star Destroyer can fire 50 shots per second continuously for hours, with zero downtime for cooling or service (a rather questionable assumption to say the least), it would take more than a full day to accomplish this task. That is a ridiculously long timeframe for an operation which can and has been carried out without leaving any witnesses. Even if we disregard the possibility of reinforcements arriving, the chance of random travellers simply happening to arrive during such a period is far too great, especially considering the cheap availability of interstellar craft.

A more reasonable timeframe is one or two hours, which requires that we dramatically increase the per-shot yield. According to conventional scaling laws20, the blast radius of a 20 megaton bomb at optimum height is approximately 20 kilometres. The area of a 40 kilometre wide circle is approximately 1250 km², and the Earth's surface area is slightly over 500 million km², so a naïve observer might conclude that one could therefore use 630,000 such blasts (5E22 J instead of 2E24 J) in order to execute a Base Delta Zero. The number of shots is not unreasonable; given 15% downtime for cooling and service, with a firing rate of 50 shots per second, a Star Destroyer could accomplish this task in roughly 4 hours.'

This is also ignores that such effects wouldn't be enough to destroy a modern bunker and thus I will post the last part of the article as well seeing as you didn't read the page I linked to:

'However, this is where we run into yet another problem. This analysis, while not as preposterous as the previous one (based on one megaton blasts) is still an enormous underestimate because like the previous one, it is based on conventional blast radii. Conventional blast radii are calculated based on a mere five psi of atmospheric overpressure, which is so low that the unprotected human body can easily survive!

Blast radii are calculated for 5 psi overpressure because that is the overpressure required to demolish most civilian structures, but it is totally inadequate for destroying hardened military targets. In Earth's twentieth century, American Atlas missile silos were designed to withstand two hundred psi of overpressure, not five! Are these people arguing that an Imperial BDZ would be useless against 1960s-era American missile silos? Given the requirements of a BDZ (not to mention the effects of past BDZ operations), that is patently ridiculous. If we use the destruction of all surface targets up to and including missile silos as a baseline, and assume that their protection technology is no greater than that of the 1960s-era United States, we would need to blanket the entire surface with 200 psi overpressure instead of 5 psi. This raises the yield requirement by a factor of forty21, so instead of 630,000 20 megaton blasts, we would need 630,000 eight hundred megaton blasts. The energy yield adds up to a total of roughly 2E24 J, which (coincidentally enough) is precisely the figure that the naysayers are attempting to debunk!

But of course, it gets better. Modern nuclear attack simulations often use blast overpressure figures as high as 2000 psi, to ensure destruction of hardened targets (remember: this is a zero-survivor mission). That raises the figure by another order of magnitude, so we need 630,000 8 gigaton blasts. And while this would undoubtedly exterminate all surface life, it still wouldn't destroy the fish!'

You also fail to mention Caamas in your example so let me post that:

'records are sketchy about this operation, but it has been established that it was performed shortly after the Clone Wars by forces loyal to Emperor Palpatine. There were no living witnesses to the attack, which means that there were no survivors anywhere on the entire planet (not even animals, plants, or people in buried shelters, according to the official records). This meant that the only surviving Caamasi were those who had been off-world during the attack. It is also known that the attack took less than a day, although we don't know how much less, and the size and composition of the attacking force is still unknown. Moreover, we also learned that the environmental devastation was so great that even after 40 years, it would have actually been easier to terraform a barren planet to Caamas's original specifications than it would have been to restore Caamas itself! This suggests that Caamas was massively irradiated, or that so much of its surface material was blasted up into the upper atmosphere that it rendered normal terraforming operations impractical. It was effectively destroyed as a habitable world, although not as literally or permanently as Alderaan.'

That's pretty devastating.

However, that's with an unknown force, and it took a while (not a huge amount of time, but a dozen hours of non-stop bombardment is quite a bit).

Exarch_Nektel wrote:

deadratman wrote:Yaeh. I am pretty sure any thing in the 40k univerese would own.

Empire<Imperium
Rebel Alliance><IG
What ever race Jar Jar is><Orks
Geonosisians(bug guys)><Tyranids
Droids><Necrons
Basic Dark side><Chaos
Fruity peace-loving Republic><Tau empire>

Jawas><Squats

Who are Eldar like?>

Well Eldar can be simalar to Jedi because of all that force psycic thing.

Seriously? Star Wars could possibly be compared against 40K? I mean an untrained Psyker could probably make Darth Vader cry blood out his bunghole from 2 miles away.

Additional points:
Imperial Guard - Okay, so their tanks don't float. They still have bigger guns than anything I've seen from the Star Wars franchise
Chaos - 40K's Rebels are evil, and have Daemons!
Tau - I see no Space Commies in Star Wars. Instant Fail.
The Death Star was blown up by an emotional Teenager.
Storm Troopers in 40K Can actually hit what they're aiming at
The Black and White Spehss Mehreen on a Black and White bike. Nuff' Said.

Calculations based on the asteroid scene: http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Metallifan, do you care to offer proof for any of this? Or is this juts more smoke, do you have any numbers or evidence at all, page numbers from books? Have you calculated Stormtrooper accuracy? Do you assume that there will be a warp in the Star Wars universe for Psykers to work with?

Please do try to defend your points with research and logic.

Thats a video version of a stat comparison. theasteroid scene had astyeroids of many many different sizes. The visual dynamic and normal ranges of SW firing in movies would denote them shooting up rocks substantially smaller than they are.

Er, not getting into this though at this level of detail. It makes my butt itch and not in the good way...

True, back when those calculations were all we had to go by that would be perfectly valid, however with the numbers cropping up in the EU novelizations and the Incredible Cross Sections books we now find that they are fairly accurate and prove that the books numbers are correct. If anybody cares to do the math and measuring for themselves feel free.

I would also welcome similar numbers for the 40k side as we have had none so far and only vague descriptions of the numbers of guard they can produce. I would like to see fleet numbers, calculations for weapons output, and the like to go against my own sources. I am limited in 40k knowledge, but will read any links and well thought out arguments and articles on such subjects.

Norade wrote:Calculations based on the asteroid scene: http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Metallifan, do you care to offer proof for any of this? Or is this juts more smoke, do you have any numbers or evidence at all, page numbers from books? Have you calculated Stormtrooper accuracy? Do you assume that there will be a warp in the Star Wars universe for Psykers to work with?

Please do try to defend your points with research and logic.

No, because I really don't care that much about a movie franchise to take creepy steps like that to prove a point that has no effect on my overall life. I'm just throwing in my two grains. I apologize if I've offended the Star Wars Mecca in any way. We'll all stop saying mean, hurtful things about Star Wars now, mmkay?

Norade wrote:As was listed in my link it would take about four hours for single vessel and less for even a modest fleet. I will provide a quote:

'First and foremost, even if we assume that a Star Destroyer can fire 50 shots per second continuously for hours, with zero downtime for cooling or service (a rather questionable assumption to say the least), it would take more than a full day to accomplish this task. That is a ridiculously long timeframe for an operation which can and has been carried out without leaving any witnesses. Even if we disregard the possibility of reinforcements arriving, the chance of random travellers simply happening to arrive during such a period is far too great, especially considering the cheap availability of interstellar craft.

A more reasonable timeframe is one or two hours, which requires that we dramatically increase the per-shot yield. According to conventional scaling laws20, the blast radius of a 20 megaton bomb at optimum height is approximately 20 kilometres. The area of a 40 kilometre wide circle is approximately 1250 km², and the Earth's surface area is slightly over 500 million km², so a naïve observer might conclude that one could therefore use 630,000 such blasts (5E22 J instead of 2E24 J) in order to execute a Base Delta Zero. The number of shots is not unreasonable; given 15% downtime for cooling and service, with a firing rate of 50 shots per second, a Star Destroyer could accomplish this task in roughly 4 hours.'

I'm not seeing where the "two hours" estimate comes from.

If something says "less than a day" that rarely means "two hours". Maybe there were no witnesses because they were all shot down? Or maybe no one was visiting, who knows.

Less than a day implies more than half a day. Probably around 16 hours or so, not quite enough to round down, but not enough to round up.

This is also ignores that such effects wouldn't be enough to destroy a modern bunker and thus I will post the last part of the article as well seeing as you didn't read the page I linked to:

'However, this is where we run into yet another problem. This analysis, while not as preposterous as the previous one (based on one megaton blasts) is still an enormous underestimate because like the previous one, it is based on conventional blast radii. Conventional blast radii are calculated based on a mere five psi of atmospheric overpressure, which is so low that the unprotected human body can easily survive!

Blast radii are calculated for 5 psi overpressure because that is the overpressure required to demolish most civilian structures, but it is totally inadequate for destroying hardened military targets. In Earth's twentieth century, American Atlas missile silos were designed to withstand two hundred psi of overpressure, not five! Are these people arguing that an Imperial BDZ would be useless against 1960s-era American missile silos? Given the requirements of a BDZ (not to mention the effects of past BDZ operations), that is patently ridiculous. If we use the destruction of all surface targets up to and including missile silos as a baseline, and assume that their protection technology is no greater than that of the 1960s-era United States, we would need to blanket the entire surface with 200 psi overpressure instead of 5 psi. This raises the yield requirement by a factor of forty21, so instead of 630,000 20 megaton blasts, we would need 630,000 eight hundred megaton blasts. The energy yield adds up to a total of roughly 2E24 J, which (coincidentally enough) is precisely the figure that the naysayers are attempting to debunk!

But of course, it gets better. Modern nuclear attack simulations often use blast overpressure figures as high as 2000 psi, to ensure destruction of hardened targets (remember: this is a zero-survivor mission). That raises the figure by another order of magnitude, so we need 630,000 8 gigaton blasts. And while this would undoubtedly exterminate all surface life, it still wouldn't destroy the fish!'

8 gigaton blasts sounds about right.

I generally figured the most powerful turbolasers would be in the mid/high-gigaton range, with the smaller ones closer to the mid-megaton range.

Does the Imperium use radar or radio or even laser pulses for communications? If yes they can be jammed. Do they uses X-rays, infrared, and/or these can be jammed without effecting the sensors of the target ship overly much. ECM isn't just EMP or jamming, but a combination of many things to deny the enemy information on the battlefield.

Hmm. Not sure on this one, I can't find anything in the Battlefleet gothic rulebook.

Well, for communications they use the astropaths, of course, but I don't know if they use them in targeting.

@Norade: You asked for the names of a few city planets (called Hive planets). Here we go:
-Necromunda
-Coronis Agathon
-Macharia
-Canta IX
Each of these planets are fortress world. This means that the whole population will be militarised. I was mistaken earlier, these planets only produce 100 regiments a year, but due to thier size these regiments are easily more than a miliion strong each.
Heavily populated forge worlds and such, like Armageddon and Minea also provide regiments but most of the pop is dedicated to making arms.
Minea is the only EXACT pop reference I can get at 154 billion. Also, on page 115 of the big red book, it that the approx amount of Hive worlds in the Imperium is:

-3.238 X 10(to the power of 4)
Can't be bothered to figure it out but it sounds like a lot.

They use the Astropaths for psychic jamming as well. their powers have also been used at the Cadian Gate as weapons against Daemon Possessed-Ships, though they're rarely used for this purpose elsewhere, as this usually kills most of the Astropaths in the process, which would thus leave the ship without the means to make Warp Travel.

Imperial Ships, from what I've read in most BL novels, have short and long range Vox systems, which are similar to a wireless radio, for inter-ship communications.

I didn't. How about you read my post?

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Norade wrote:As was listed in my link it would take about four hours for single vessel and less for even a modest fleet. I will provide a quote:

'First and foremost, even if we assume that a Star Destroyer can fire 50 shots per second continuously for hours, with zero downtime for cooling or service (a rather questionable assumption to say the least), it would take more than a full day to accomplish this task. That is a ridiculously long timeframe for an operation which can and has been carried out without leaving any witnesses. Even if we disregard the possibility of reinforcements arriving, the chance of random travellers simply happening to arrive during such a period is far too great, especially considering the cheap availability of interstellar craft.

A more reasonable timeframe is one or two hours, which requires that we dramatically increase the per-shot yield. According to conventional scaling laws20, the blast radius of a 20 megaton bomb at optimum height is approximately 20 kilometres. The area of a 40 kilometre wide circle is approximately 1250 km², and the Earth's surface area is slightly over 500 million km², so a naïve observer might conclude that one could therefore use 630,000 such blasts (5E22 J instead of 2E24 J) in order to execute a Base Delta Zero. The number of shots is not unreasonable; given 15% downtime for cooling and service, with a firing rate of 50 shots per second, a Star Destroyer could accomplish this task in roughly 4 hours.'

I'm not seeing where the "two hours" estimate comes from.

If something says "less than a day" that rarely means "two hours". Maybe there were no witnesses because they were all shot down? Or maybe no one was visiting, who knows.

Less than a day implies more than half a day. Probably around 16 hours or so, not quite enough to round down, but not enough to round up.

No traffic around a relatively populous world seems unlikely as some ships would have been in hyperspace as the attack started and wouldn't have known of the attack. It also seems unlikely that any ship seeing such a thing would fail to turn and leave ASAP and get word out, though I can't confirm that. Without many examples to go by less than a day could mean 23 hours 59 minutes, or 1 minute we simply cannot say however using the evidence I think we can say 8 to 16 hours would be a fair range for a trio of Star Destroyers.

This is also ignores that such effects wouldn't be enough to destroy a modern bunker and thus I will post the last part of the article as well seeing as you didn't read the page I linked to:

'However, this is where we run into yet another problem. This analysis, while not as preposterous as the previous one (based on one megaton blasts) is still an enormous underestimate because like the previous one, it is based on conventional blast radii. Conventional blast radii are calculated based on a mere five psi of atmospheric overpressure, which is so low that the unprotected human body can easily survive!

Blast radii are calculated for 5 psi overpressure because that is the overpressure required to demolish most civilian structures, but it is totally inadequate for destroying hardened military targets. In Earth's twentieth century, American Atlas missile silos were designed to withstand two hundred psi of overpressure, not five! Are these people arguing that an Imperial BDZ would be useless against 1960s-era American missile silos? Given the requirements of a BDZ (not to mention the effects of past BDZ operations), that is patently ridiculous. If we use the destruction of all surface targets up to and including missile silos as a baseline, and assume that their protection technology is no greater than that of the 1960s-era United States, we would need to blanket the entire surface with 200 psi overpressure instead of 5 psi. This raises the yield requirement by a factor of forty21, so instead of 630,000 20 megaton blasts, we would need 630,000 eight hundred megaton blasts. The energy yield adds up to a total of roughly 2E24 J, which (coincidentally enough) is precisely the figure that the naysayers are attempting to debunk!

But of course, it gets better. Modern nuclear attack simulations often use blast overpressure figures as high as 2000 psi, to ensure destruction of hardened targets (remember: this is a zero-survivor mission). That raises the figure by another order of magnitude, so we need 630,000 8 gigaton blasts. And while this would undoubtedly exterminate all surface life, it still wouldn't destroy the fish!'

8 gigaton blasts sounds about right.

I generally figured the most powerful turbolasers would be in the mid/high-gigaton range, with the smaller ones closer to the mid-megaton range.

That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.

Does the Imperium use radar or radio or even laser pulses for communications? If yes they can be jammed. Do they uses X-rays, infrared, and/or these can be jammed without effecting the sensors of the target ship overly much. ECM isn't just EMP or jamming, but a combination of many things to deny the enemy information on the battlefield.

Hmm. Not sure on this one, I can't find anything in the Battlefleet gothic rulebook.

Well, for communications they use the astropaths, of course, but I don't know if they use them in targeting.

So it comes again to the fact that we simply don't know. Do we have any sources telling us average and maximum engagement ranges and rates of fire for lances and missiles?

You cheat, you edited that out!
Now I just sound crazy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, was talking to metallifan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is an honest question Norade. Are you arguing that:
1) Star Wars shields are better than Imperium shields?
2) Imperial weaponry is better than Imperium weaponry?
3) Imperial's can attack and move without detection?

MWUHAHAHA!

I know I edited it after I saw it at the bottom. I was hoping to catch it before you did. It worked with partial success

Put it back! Put it back! Waaaaaaaaaaaah!!! MOMMY!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is an honest question Norade. Are you arguing that:
1) Star Wars shields are better than Imperium shields?
2) Imperial weaponry is better than Imperium weaponry?
3) Imperial's can attack and move without detection?

1) No, though I have no numbers for the Imperium thus far and can't establish the facts.

2) Yes, based on evidence I have prevented. I will change my stance if counter evidence with numbers is presented. I will not accept virus bomb will kill death star because it contains air (An example from a few pages back) as evidence.

3) Yes, Hyperdrive is, on average, much faster than warp (I will provide numbers when I find them) and without Interdictors and sensors able to see into hyperspace they have no way to stop or track a ship in hyperspace. This will allow the Galactice Empire (GE) to attack undefended worlds as long as they use probe droids (Use established in Empire Strikes Back) to keep intelligence fresh. Using this speed also allows rapid response to attack with overwhelming force. Greater accuracy and control of the exit from hyperspace means less confusion post FTL transit than with warp.

1) Shields work vastly differently. They lack the finnese of Imperial ships (whose shields "hug" the ship I think) but are extremely powerful where they are placed. They often leave flanks or such exposed to power the shields where the fighting is going on.

2)Okay, the is an example of Imperial (moreso Space Amrine) lance weaponry tearing a planet apart (ACTUALLy destroying it death star stlye) when the Night Lords (1 legions navy worth) aimed all thier weapons at a single point against thier own planet.

3) Warp works completly differently. Hyperdrive IS faster, but if Imperial Ships were in Imperium space, they would probably have serious problems with the warp. I really think that the Star Wars hyperdrive is just a cleaner version of warp travel. Also, Warp travel is by no means reliably slow. In some cases, Imperium actually arrives at thier destination before they have left. Or a hundred years later. Or at the exact same moment. Not exactly relaible. Also, Psykers and Astropaths can detect movements of other fleets. (If they are biggish)

Norade wrote:That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.

But does that mean that all of the energy from their reactors is transferred to the target?

So it comes again to the fact that we simply don't know. Do we have any sources telling us average and maximum engagement ranges and rates of fire for lances and missiles?

Well, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a few thousand kilometers.

On that level, it would seem somewhere around 3 or 5 thousand kilometers per centimeter, and I believe lances actually have a range of around 20 centimeters.

Torpedoes have a different set of rules, I think they move across the battlefield in large groups or something.

Just something I noticed on page 5-

When you have an empire that can build a Death Star in secret subcontracting out transportation to a small shipping company then you start to see the scale.

I think that the IoM could get away with much larger heresy and sneakiness than that. Or at least they could if there wasn't an entire sector of the IoM devoting to rooting out these sort of things. Thus, the Planet Killers and large weapons of the IoM are made legally and with much less hassle as all of the sneakiness is bypassed by it being sanctioned by the High Lords of Terra or some higher force and is made quicker and more efficiently.

Also, on the subject of sheilds, most space marine ships have full shields. I got this information from Graham McNeils Ultramarine series as it describes the battle barges and strike cruisers of having full round sheilds. also you do not have to lower them to fire out of them.

Also, there are chaos marines built for seiging things. Iron Warriors. As i'm sure your aware, they are masters of seige and can penetrate almost any enemy stronghold, even the impregnable-Storm of Iron, Graham McNeil. The Iron Warriors have access to extensive weaponry capable of destroying most things and also have many planetary weapons that can break through sheilds. The sheild breaking weaponry was taken from Deus Encarmine by James Swallow or Dark Apostle, i'm not sure which. It decribes a scence where a weapon of the Iron Warriors, a mine is able to destroy the battle barge at full strenghth with one blast. They bypass this mine field with a failsafe but it proves that the Iron Warriors have access to sheild bypassing weaponry and advanced seige warfare tactics.

Emperors Faithful wrote:1) Shields work vastly differently. They lack the finnese of Imperial ships (whose shields "hug" the ship I think) but are extremely powerful where they are placed. They often leave flanks or such exposed to power the shields where the fighting is going on.

Shields the leave a flank exposed invite torpedo armed fighters and torpedo boats to make attack runs on unshielded regions, that is their primary goal in the universe and dog fighting is a result of counters to this tactic.

2)Okay, the is an example of Imperial (more so Space Marine) lance weaponry tearing a planet apart (Actually destroying it death star style) when the Night Lords (1 legions navy worth) aimed all their weapons at a single point against their own planet.

Can I please get a description or a quote on this? Even a page number and a book so I can look this up myself later.

3) Warp works completly differently. Hyperdrive IS faster, but if Imperial Ships were in Imperium space, they would probably have serious problems with the warp. I really think that the Star Wars hyperdrive is just a cleaner version of warp travel. Also, Warp travel is by no means reliably slow. In some cases, Imperium actually arrives at thier destination before they have left. Or a hundred years later. Or at the exact same moment. Not exactly relaible. Also, Psykers and Astropaths can detect movements of other fleets. (If they are biggish)

Hyperdrive =/= Warp, they are two completely different things. Hyperspace is stated to transform a vessel into Tachyons and shunt them into a sort of mirrored dimension where mass shadows from gravity and energy are transferred though, but only on a large scale. Warp doesn't seem to work the same way so you would need to show them being the same to convince me that they use the same methods to travel. Also arriving in an unpredictable fashion doesn't seem like an advantage as it makes planning very difficult. We also have no evidence that Psykers could detect ships in hyperspace.


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Orkeosaurus wrote:

Norade wrote:That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.

But does that mean that all of the energy from their reactors is transferred to the target?

So it comes again to the fact that we simply don't know. Do we have any sources telling us average and maximum engagement ranges and rates of fire for lances and missiles?

Well, base contact in Battlefleet Gothic is a few thousand kilometers.

On that level, it would seem somewhere around 3 or 5 thousand kilometers per centimeter, and I believe lances actually have a range of around 20 centimeters.

Torpedoes have a different set of rules, I think they move across the battlefield in large groups or something.

So lances have between a 60,000km and a 100,000km range where as turbolasers have a maximum range of 179,875,475km (10 light minutes). I do not know typical combat ranges, but due to some strange properties, turbolasers seem to have a fixed time to target and not a fixed speed (Google Curtis Saxton and find out what I mean, it is beyond me to explain it) so it would likely be dependent on that effect. We also know that fighters can swiftly accelerate to 90% of the speed of light so I would say light seconds (299,792 km = 1 light second) would be a range with 10 light seconds being a rough maximum.


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Great Unlclean One wrote:Just something I noticed on page 5-

When you have an empire that can build a Death Star in secret subcontracting out transportation to a small shipping company then you start to see the scale.

I think that the IoM could get away with much larger heresy and sneakiness than that. Or at least they could if there wasn't an entire sector of the IoM devoting to rooting out these sort of things. Thus, the Planet Killers and large weapons of the IoM are made legally and with much less hassle as all of the sneakiness is bypassed by it being sanctioned by the High Lords of Terra or some higher force and is made quicker and more efficiently.

That was an example to the GE in industrial capacity, if they can do it in decade (From prototype to finshed design with delays) in secret for the first DS, and in under a year for what was finished on the second DS, think of what they can do in public on a larger scale? As well they could have been kept secret the way our government keeps things secret to hide the prohect from enemies. As for routing things out the ISB, COMPNOR, and the like are the GE's equivalent and they work very well, in fact they likely played a big part in keeping the projects secret.

Also, on the subject of sheilds, most space marine ships have full shields. I got this information from Graham McNeils Ultramarine series as it describes the battle barges and strike cruisers of having full round sheilds. also you do not have to lower them to fire out of them.

Thanks for the correction, I wasn't really up-to-speed on that facet of IoM tech and this is the first answer I have gained from my questions on it.

Also, there are chaos marines built for seiging things. Iron Warriors. As i'm sure your aware, they are masters of seige and can penetrate almost any enemy stronghold, even the impregnable-Storm of Iron, Graham McNeil. The Iron Warriors have access to extensive weaponry capable of destroying most things and also have many planetary weapons that can break through sheilds. The sheild breaking weaponry was taken from Deus Encarmine by James Swallow or Dark Apostle, i'm not sure which. It decribes a scence where a weapon of the Iron Warriors, a mine is able to destroy the battle barge at full strenghth with one blast. They bypass this mine field with a failsafe but it proves that the Iron Warriors have access to sheild bypassing weaponry and advanced seige warfare tactics.

We need to know how strong and by what mechanisms the shields defend before we can tell if such a shield bypass would effect an ISD. The same goes for sieges, just because a modern marine team can siege a small taliban fort doesn't mean that can siege a large city. We need numbers for the type of armor they penetrated, its strength and thickness, the effectiveness of shields against them before we can get started on the Iron Warriors.


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Orkeosaurus wrote:

Norade wrote:That would be right if other sources in the EU, IE the Lucrehulks (sp?) (Trade Fed Battleships) could put all their reactors output through their main weapons if needed. It has been said that any dedicated warship could do the same.

But does that mean that all of the energy from their reactors is transferred to the target?

They would transfer at the same efficiency as a normal blast so even if we say that's only 1% that would give a full powered blast about 48 teratons of force, and I think we can agree that 10% is really low-balling things. Keep in mind that this is for an ISD with an estimated total reactor capacity of 2 × 10e25 watts and a bolt that is only 2 x 10e23 watts and also assuming that if it takes a bolt a full second to strike, so we can agree I'm being generous here by a wide margin. Now think of what an SSD we get an output of 7.73 × 10e26 watts and a shot of 7.73 x 10e24 watts raising our numbers even higher.

Canon.

To every dang one of you who misspelled it repeatedly in this thread, I have to say this:

GET IT RIGHT BEFORE I FIRE MY CANONS!

And seriously. This thread has gone waaaay out there.

Way out there, unlike the first page were getting things done now. I'm actually learning about the IoM now, not just 'RAWR SPACE MARINES ARE WIN!'