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Yes, the Feds can fire weapons at FTL speed,


the main problem with that is that is used primarly for engaging other ships going at FTL speeds.

the IoM doesn't use FTL travel.


yes the Federation could do a drive by, but the only way to do that is if they know exactly where the IoM ship in question is and it would require a very split second firing mechanism because they would have less then a millisecond of time where their weapon would be able to connect with the enemy.

IIRC: phasers require the beam to be on the target for a pieriod of time before damage can be done. Ship Sized phasers might only need a few Milliseconds to do their damage, but it might not be possable for a ship traveling at FTL speeds to target a stationary object, no matter how big it is. especially considering how the object in question will only be there for less then a millisecond before speeding away.

Torpedoes?

given the size descrepency of the ships, the Federation torpedos wouldn't even dent the IoM ships.


are Federation torpedos FTL capable?

Very doubtful. Imagine the cost of installing FTL capability on a torpedo.

yeah, although IoM torpedos are almost as big as Fed ships.


"Cap'n, the enemy 'peers to be sendin a parley ship, it'sa headin right fer us"

"Hail them and allow them to come aboard Scotty"

30 seconds later.

Star Trek = Primarily space bound combat
Star Wars = Neither best at Space or Land based combant, even army of jedi
40k = Ownage of space and Ownage of Land

sniperjolly wrote:40K on the other hand, is, as stated, (LOL OMG LIEK SPESS MARHINES ARE THE R0CKZORZ!!! and TYRANOSAURS ARE BETTER CAUSE THEY ARE BUG DINOSAURS! ) As over the top as physicaly possible and even then, the rule of cool has long supplanted the laws of physics in 40K.

Pretty much this. 40K is the DragonBall Z of sci-fi settings, you can't judge it by the same pseudo-scientific measures as the others. There's always something more ridiculous and over the top in 40K. Q is actually one of Tzeench's daemon princes!

sorry, ive wanted to say this for a while, other than warp drive/pyskers/chaos everything in 40k, tau, IoM, eldar weaponry and defences, even the nids have a basis in reality, plasma, a substance that is neither liquid, gas or solid, being held in magnetic fields and discharged and high rates of fire, fair enoug this sounds far fetched but so did having mobile phone that had 2ghz processors in them 20 years go, 20 years ago american defence systems controlled by super computers bearly had 2ghz in them, now look at them, with multipul cores there in the Thz range in processing, lasors (lazors? not sure if its s or z) scientific proof these exist, we use them in almost everything, and im sure in a few thousend years we'd have them weaponised, rockets, explosives, biological weapons bacterial and genetic enhancement (incudling more advanced forms, the nids) happening every day, always improving always evolving, and considering the size of the hive fleets and the distances, incuding the sheer size, they must be about as old as the necrons, billions of years old, and if you dont believe in creationisum that is more than enough time to create a hive mind (ants, bees etc) and rapid mutation even we have mutations, some useful some not, (downs syndrome for example, or the woman who had 4 kidneys) as are new genes, minerals technologys, and increased micronisation means smaller faster more effecent computers, as well as stronger metals or more reactive metalls (dont get into the specific terms you all know what i mean)

as for the warp, it could follow the same principle as biology, the biological hylix, it mirrors its self, so if one side gets damaged it can replicate its self and repair, this could be what the warp is, and if you follow any good sci-fi the sheilds are either projected energy or using subspace as a barrier (warp anyone?), stealth fields could use the same princeple or micro cameras and prejectors, necrons can phase tunnel, this could be knocking the ships almost into the warp, or into another dimension entierly, eldar webways, could use a replicated version of the warp (there also millions upon millions yes?) that is stablised by giant gates, created by the old ones, even humans have developed mild forms of esp and other physic gifts, so you know everything could be explained if you think about it, so yes, 40k might be over the top occasionally, but in this arguement its science is based on this universe, (depends on your view on the warp as subspace/hyperspace which the other two universes use)

and about creatures that devlop unatural ages, with the right foods and tecnology, has the average lift span of a human in the past few hundread years not gone up from 60 to 80? now add a few thousend/million years to the process, and if you dont manage it, you could always go the same way as the necrons >=]

Void shields actually do use something similer to Subspace as a defense.

incoming objects are transported into the warp. naturally, this requires energy and is why the shields can be overloaded.


for this reason, 40k shields are supierior to any other sci-fi shield that doesn't use a similer principal because they work against all projectiles, energy and solid.

Grey Templar wrote:Void shields actually do use something similer to Subspace as a defense.

incoming objects are transported into the warp. naturally, this requires energy and is why the shields can be overloaded.

Anything to back that statement up?

Also do Void shields work under water?

Cheers

Andrew

"The shields use Warp technology to displace ranged attacks. It is unclear whether Void Shields neutralize the projectile, transport it to the Warp, or exactly how the shielding is accomplished"

this is the only official cannon on them.

considering that the shields work on both solid and energy weapons, it seems most likely that they work using the latter method.


a field of energy, without some sort of space displacement, shouldn't stop a solid particle from passing through. Energy weapons are the only weapon type that will likely be stopped(assuming that energy fields can stop any thing at all)


hence why i belive they open up a warp portal in response to incoming objects and energy streams.



Void shields might work under water. a really fast current could trigger the shields to protect the thing they are protecting and this could drain the shields quickly.

Grey Templar wrote:"The shields use Warp technology to displace ranged attacks. It is unclear whether Void Shields neutralize the projectile, transport it to the Warp, or exactly how the shielding is accomplished"

this is the only official cannon on them.

Which is from?

The reason that I question this is because time and time again, it is hammered in the background to 40K is how dangerous and uncontrollable the warp is. Yet the answers nearly constantly given is, oh it's warp powered, or it opens a portal to the warp. For something that has the most powerful psyker constantly vying against it, it seems pretty mundane to have it fitted onto a ship/titan to deflect a bullet. Or the ultimate power source to work a door.

Cheers

Andrew

PS the question about the water, was if shields don't work under water thens species 841117565464534 (whatever, you know the ones I'm talking about) win by default as they are unassailable in their home galaxy.

Clumpski wrote:fair enoug this sounds far fetched but so did having mobile phone that had 2ghz processors in them 20 years go

Actually, we still don't have that, although it's not too far off. A few of the new phones do have two 1Ghz cores, however.

sorry, It's from the Void Shield entry on Lexicanum.

i belive the reason voids arn't bad is because they don't have the risk of opening a self sustaining warp portal. i think this is because there are many fail safes built into the equipment(one of which may be a shutdown after so much incoming damage)




Species bla bla bla.... would a still be screwed. just virus bomb them from orbit.

Grey Templar wrote:Species bla bla bla.... would a still be screwed. just virus bomb them from orbit.

They live in a separate reality ("Fluidic Space") and don't have planets, as everything they have is alive. Think of them as a mix between the Tyranids and Chaos. They're even telepathic.

Grey Templar wrote:given the size descrepency of the ships, the Federation torpedos wouldn't even dent the IoM ships.


are Federation torpedos FTL capable?

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but there are examples of Star Trek torpedoes phasing out of space-time and then phasing back in when they reach their designated target, letting them effectively explode inside enemy ships, rupturing plasma reactors. And considering that they've been fired during warp travel on-screen on numerous occations, they're at least launchable while at warp speeds.

Ok, so the Federation Torps can explode inside the IoM ships.

the sheer size of IoM ships would be still able to take quite a bit of damage before being crippled.

this tactic would also require the Feds knowing exactly where all the vulnerable bits of a IoM ship are.

Terminus wrote:

Clumpski wrote:fair enoug this sounds far fetched but so did having mobile phone that had 2ghz processors in them 20 years go

Actually, we still don't have that, although it's not too far off. A few of the new phones do have two 1Ghz cores, however. [/quote

just a reference to some american/british army tech phone ive seen and since military forces are generally 12 years ahead of current technology would it supprise you?

Grey Templar wrote:Ok, so the Federation Torps can explode inside the IoM ships.

the sheer size of IoM ships would be still able to take quite a bit of damage before being crippled.

this tactic would also require the Feds knowing exactly where all the vulnerable bits of a IoM ship are.

Subspace scanning technology solves that.

IoM ship gets wrecked and enemy's breach warp drive, enemys get sucked into warp. IoM then goes back to fighting xenos/chaos.

Not likely but hey it could work

and it isn't unknown for the Captain of a crippled ship to deliberatly implode his warp drive.


it's how Hive Fleet Leviathan was destroyed.

Even if we assume the Trek ships can deliver each one of their missiles dead on target and destroy one ship per missile, they'll be long out of missiles before even 1% of the Imperial Forces are depleted.

I think the primary strength that 40k has, and a weakness of other sci-fi universes, is in the realm of Psycological warfare.


the IoM couldn't be defeated quickly under any circumstances, and that itself would erode the will of other factions to fight. the Impierium makes war over centuries if needed and they have the capability to do it.

the Federation, having a core of citizens that leave realitivly sheltered lives, wouldn't be able to do warfare on the scale and time the IoM does. they would get tired and surrender, likely within 20-30 years.

the star wars factions face a similer problem. the Old Republic wen't a thousand years without a galactic scale war(no small miracle in itself) and so would have very little stomach for a long scale war. they barely liked one that only involved using Clones as soldiers. a war with the IoM would suck up the capacity to produce clones and would require using normal people.

the Empire? the war with the Seperatists and Rebels could hardly be called a real war, at least by 40k standards. the Empire lacked a source of true Military ability. with the main Government not having had an army for more then a couple of decades, there wasn't time for them to perfect the art of war.


the IoM has waged war, in a galaxy of only war, for 10,000 years and has another 15,000+ years of Human existance among the stars to draw upon. the IoM also has 1 million worlds to draw upon for resources and men. the GE has about that many planets, but there isn't any free access to the material even with the Emperor's dominion. everything has a political implication in SW.

the same can be said of the Federation who are in an even worse position then the IoM as far as resources go. although one could point out that Star Trek takes place in the Dark Age of Technology and as such has already lost to 40k in a sense.

A Chuck Norris roundhouse kick can freeze time and space. I don't care who or what you are. If your frozen in space time, you can't do gak. Ergo, chuck norris wins. And no, omnipotent /chaos/ old one BS won't work. Chucks beard has an "anti supreme being interference field" built in. It nullifies said beings power, and forces it's head into prime position for a roundhouse kick up it's own arse.

We disqualified Chuck from the competition.


We, after all, want a real competition and Chuck's kicks lead to only one conclusion...

Grey Templar wrote:sorry, It's from the Void Shield entry on Lexicanum.

But it's only one option out of 3 from an 'unofficial' ie non GW site. While it may be correct, it is not officially canon.

Species bla bla bla.... would a still be screwed. just virus bomb them from orbit.

As someone else has pointed out, they belong to another dimension in which 'space' is a fluid. Essentially an infinite ocean. There is nothing to virus bomb. Also their ships are essentially one 'man' fighters, which when combined (I can't remember how many it was, I think it was about 9) are capable of destroying a planet.

Could they defeat the IoM, I doubt it, the IoM is simply too big. Could IoM defeat them? No chance, and they would get their backsides kicked in the process. No void shields, engines not working properly, batteries flooding and missile tubes useless (or as near to as to make no difference).

Cheers

Andrew




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Terminus wrote:Even if we assume the Trek ships can deliver each one of their missiles dead on target and destroy one ship per missile, they'll be long out of missiles before even 1% of the Imperial Forces are depleted.

That is only correct if we assume that IoM can bring every ship to bear at the same time.

To put it another way, if I take 1 hour to build a torp that will destroy an IoM ship, then I will never be defeated as long as I only encounter 1 ship an hour. If I encounter 2, I'm screwed. I don't think that the IoM could bring it's entire forces to bear at the same time though. So the Federation could actually defend itself against the IoM.

Cheers

Andrew

Terminus wrote:Even if we assume the Trek ships can deliver each one of their missiles dead on target and destroy one ship per missile, they'll be long out of missiles before even 1% of the Imperial Forces are depleted.

Which is what I've been saying all along. Once the Federation runs out of torpedoes, they have to get the raw materials to make new ones from somewhere. Once that "somewhere" is destroyed by a Cyclonic torpedo, there's not much they can do.

Unless...

I'm gonna need help from someone who's more of a Trekkie than me on this one, just how does the replicator systems work? Because if it's one form of matter into another, or energy into matter, then the Federation actually stands a chance of winning, even if it would take a silly amount of time...

ok so what is species 8472 ???? and yes one on one th iom would win because they have HUGE ships if we take the biggest ship in all of the universes then the iom still wins because thier ships are bigger and would take a massive amount of beating before they would be damaged enough to destroy even one wepon and pu-lease SM versus storm troopers is well a slaughter but against trecky peps with "phasers" well a direct hit dosent always kill a normal human but one bolt round will nicely also klingon blades would do nothing against SM power armour but most boarding actions are by veterans in TERMINATOR ARMOUR



also where are trecks dreadnoughts ????????????

SW has walkers and realy rubbish tanks but one dred and they'd be obliterated with every "trooper" empire or rebel within a mile radius would be dead with half of him missing or crushed beyond recognition


also don't think of using FTL drives because they travel way to fast to target anything appart from ships moving at those speeds also there is a fleet for every chapter and more than one for some and they have exterminatus yup dethstar in a faster better warp capable ship


and if 40K can't stop some WAAAAGHS what chance does any other universe have treck is too ethical and wimpy and SW dosent have enough people :thought: oh none

one more if we eliminate all omnipotent biengs no one has a chance against 40K because treck has to persuade the Q's to get involved in the first place and since they are bored with existance and have explored everything the warp would prove quite interesting.


I rest my case

the Replicator, IIRC, just turns matter from one form/element into another.

naturally, certain Elements take more basic matter then others. it takes more mass to make Uranium then Helium etc.


One a side note: for the purposes of this comparason, we assume the entire resources of one faction are pitted against the entirety of the other. the IoM can commit their entire Navy and the IG into facing their foe. the Feds don't have to worry about anything else, no Klingons, no other Alien species and can commit 100% of their forces too.



The Feds would run out of Mass to make space ships from. The IoM can attack from any angle too. Warp Travel isn't restricted by planetary bodies and celestial phenomona, FTL is.

the IoM could just show up at the Feds lightly defended home front and just rape them. the Feds can perform hit and run attacks, but if their planets are being attacked they will be forced to stand and fight with predictable outcomes.

uuuur that was what i was trying to say in shorter terms but that also makes more sense

DarthSpader wrote:A Chuck Norris roundhouse kick can freeze time and space. I don't care who or what you are. If your frozen in space time, you can't do gak. Ergo, chuck norris wins. And no, omnipotent /chaos/ old one BS won't work. Chucks beard has an "anti supreme being interference field" built in. It nullifies said beings power, and forces it's head into prime position for a roundhouse kick up it's own arse.

Chuck Norris wrote:Noone can dodge my roundhouse kic-CREEEEEEEEDDD

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:the Replicator, IIRC, just turns matter from one form/element into another.

naturally, certain Elements take more basic matter then others. it takes more mass to make Uranium then Helium etc.


One a side note: for the purposes of this comparason, we assume the entire resources of one faction are pitted against the entirety of the other. the IoM can commit their entire Navy and the IG into facing their foe. the Feds don't have to worry about anything else, no Klingons, no other Alien species and can commit 100% of their forces too.



The Feds would run out of Mass to make space ships from. The IoM can attack from any angle too. Warp Travel isn't restricted by planetary bodies and celestial phenomona, FTL is.

the IoM could just show up at the Feds lightly defended home front and just rape them. the Feds can perform hit and run attacks, but if their planets are being attacked they will be forced to stand and fight with predictable outcomes.

I thought there was certain things tehy could not replicate like fuel (trilithium?, too unstable? i know other things they jsut make illegal to replicate like valuble ore etc)