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Thor665 wrote:I think we're all missing the point. GW is in the business of game models, not in the business of game rules.

They sell both, though I would agree that the models drive the business...

For my Game-of-choice I have both PDFs and hardcover. I find I really like both for different reasons. The hardcover is better for actual gaming use and easier to read for long sections or a few minutes here and there.

The PDF is great for portability, like making army lists while traveling. There's also the search feature and ease of updates, too.

I certainly think people should buy their books. i don't know if I'd stop playing someone using a unauthorized copy, but I do think it's ripping off the company that produces it. It's never come up, personally. I guess I'd treat it like I do unpainted models: It's disrespectful, but if it doesn't persist, I don't really mind.

I don't buy the "I won't buy stuff because I don't respect the company" as I feel it's a cop-out. If you don't respect the company, don't do business with them at all. Much the same with music and such.

Why? Because there's no *possibility* that at some point a short swarthy man ran about trying to sell a book of 'do' and 'don't' to roman citizens? "Chicken Soup for the Athenian Soul" is somehow a new idea? Some pre-Aristotlean Tony Robbins is just as likely to have been running around hawking his fevered writings hoping to make the world a better place.

Heimdall is legit, quit bad-mouthing my ancestors' gods!

Thor665 wrote:I think we're all missing the point. GW is in the business of game models, not in the business of game rules.

Indeed, and they've apparently admitted this themselves. So why do they insist on charging inflated prices for their rulebooks anyway?

And my god could beat up your god.

I have every codex on PDF. but my IG and Tau army have original codexs. I just got the others for the fluff. I mean who has enough money to have it printed out? That money should be spent on either more troops or in fact put towards an original codex. in closing, its fine to have PDFs, but out of principle one should buy the original codex!

The amount of anti-social elitism seen here is amazing. Does it really matter if the rules the person is using is on shiny bound paper, flat draft paper, or a greasy piece of cardboard that serves as an official army list while the codex is in the person's head? This IS a GAME, isn't it? Isn't the point of it to have fun, hopefully get a few good laughs, and then maybe catch a beer or two afterwards? I'm sorry if your opponent skipping the $30 on a codex secretly fills you with guilt over the amount of money you poured into a book that fell apart on you after 3 months of use. It doesn't me. Hell, someone could field a Space Wolf army out of bottlecaps against me if they wanted to, so long as they can keep track of what is what. This game is a moneysink, and costs more than what it's worth. If people want to circumvent that cost, I'm not a "good" enough person to tell them not to. I'm glad there are enough of you who have such honest and perfect lives to be able to vigilantly police this without tire or hypocritical guilt.

Excellent post.

I personally have no problems with copied codexes/books etc as long as they are fully complete and reasonably legible.
Something that is missing 1/2 the army list and has been savaged by a loveable if overzealous pet isnt going to help anyone.

In addition its all well and good spouting you have this and that, all offical, all above board, what about the kids and yes I do mean kids that rly on their parents that dont have the disposable income at hand?
Economic elitism FTL, Im afraid.

There is the other argument though that it hurts GWs business in the long run.
Now I can see where that comment is going but lets say, sales of new codexes dropped to say 20% worldwide, what do you think the implicatons would be for other prices / GWs view of their market.
I see profits are down for them already over the last 2 years and whilst I do have some issues with GWs pricing policy in certain areas and lack of quality in others, all in all I think most of us respect them to some degree and what they provide for us - which is fun.

The New Romance wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Not having a offical dex shows lack of respect for GW, not you, your club or your FLGS.

That's why I'm perfectly okay with pirated/printed/whatever unofficial codices, because it just gives GW the finger. You're already buying their expensive miniatures in order to play, I think that's enough. After all, they're a miniatures company, not a rules company, right? I mean, there's so many threads on Dakka where GW is attacked for this and that, and yet people seem to buy everything they publish - and afterwards still be angry with GW and, obviously, even with people who sort of avoided the GW money trap. I can understand the feeling of being cheated when you buy a real rulebook and others just download it, but just a little. After all, nobody has forced you to do so, especially when you're not 100 % convinced of GW. If you are, other's wrongs shouldn't really bother you.
It's pretty much the same as being angry with someone who owns an MP3 player or iPod or something, because there's no way in hell all of those 40 GB of music are legit. If you apply the same standards to that, most posters in this thread ought to be angry with nearly the whole world. I for one am not angry when buying an original CD, nor has anyone ever been with me because I might own some MP3s that weren't so paid-for.

QFT

ricekake87 wrote:I have every codex on PDF. but my IG and Tau army have original codexs. I just got the others for the fluff. I mean who has enough money to have it printed out? That money should be spent on either more troops or in fact put towards an original codex. in closing, its fine to have PDFs, but out of principle one should buy the original codex!

So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Ratius wrote:In addition its all well and good spouting you have this and that, all official, all above board, what about the kids and yes I do mean kids that rly on their parents that dont have the disposable income at hand?
Economic elitism FTL, Im afraid.

"Won't somebody think of the children?" :(

The kids should be learning a very useful lesson about living in the real world:
If you can't afford it, you can't have it. Save up your pocket-money/paper-round money and buy it when you can afford it.

Teaching them that it's OK to steal luxuries, if they can't afford them (or even if they can) is not my idea of a good way to live.

Amen.

Teach them to listen to the radio and go to libraries, where content is free.

ph34r wrote:So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone using "counts as" or using a non GW model to represent something?

Thor665 wrote:

ph34r wrote:So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone using "counts as" or using a non GW model to represent something?

Irrelevant .

LunaHound wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

ph34r wrote:So not paying for codexes that you have a pdf copy of is okay? Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for me to download black library books without paying for them? How about any books? Why should I ever pay for books by your logic, I'm not made of money!

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone using "counts as" or using a non GW model to represent something?

Irrelevant .

I will concede it is irrelevant to the specific question of playing with someone with a printed out codex, but it is not irrelevant to my curiosity nor to perhaps a deeper understanding of what mental differences someone draws between the two 'infractions' against the game developers. I'm curious how a more hard line person reacts to the latter. I see no reason to dismiss my question out of hand.

Thor665 wrote:
I will concede it is irrelevant to the specific question of playing with someone with a printed out codex, but it is not irrelevant to my curiosity nor to perhaps a deeper understanding of what mental differences someone draws between the two 'infractions' against the game developers. I'm curious how a more hard line person reacts to the latter. I see no reason to dismiss my question out of hand.

I answered irrelevant because i think the reasons for the 2 choices can be very different , here is what i meant:

- A person specifically uses internet downloaded codex and doesnt own a real codex is trying to avoid paying.
However:
- A count as model can very well be because the alternative looks better esthetically , and they are still atleast paying for it.

I totally understand and would agree with you , if you compared to dled codex is equal to illegal recasts of miniatures.

LunaHound wrote:I totally understand and would agree with you , if you compared to dled codex is equal to illegal recasts of miniatures.

Playing with a printed out codex does not necessarily equal playing with a downloaded codex (for instance, what if two people went in halfsies on a codex and one used a copier to get a copy in order to play his army. Or maybe they asked to copy pages from someone else's codex so they didn't need to reference a store/friend copy)

What I would point out as similarities betwixt and between a printed codex and 'counts as' or non-GW models in an army is that they can both be being used to test things that have not been purchased, or as a stop gap for things that are currently out of the price range of the consumer, or that they consider too expensive.

I use some (poorly) scratch built Drop Pods made out of PVC pipe. I don't feel it is worth my money to pay $30 a pop to purchase GW drop pods. I am thus denying GW profit and yet still being able to play my drop pod army.

How is that any different that getting a (poor quality/incomplete) printout of a set of rules for an army because you don't want to pay $30 for some paper and a thin bit of fluff. (heck, the evil codex person is denying GW less profit then I am)

Is the person using a printout more or less evil then someone using a store copy of a codex? Are they more or less evil then my scratch built Drop Pods?

Thor665 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I totally understand and would agree with you , if you compared to dled codex is equal to illegal recasts of miniatures.

Playing with a printed out codex does not necessarily equal playing with a downloaded codex (for instance, what if two people went in halfsies on a codex and one used a copier to get a copy in order to play his army. Or maybe they asked to copy pages from someone else's codex so they didn't need to reference a store/friend copy)

What I would point out as similarities betwixt and between a printed codex and 'counts as' or non-GW models in an army is that they can both be being used to test things that have not been purchased, or as a stop gap for things that are currently out of the price range of the consumer, or that they consider too expensive.

I use some (poorly) scratch built Drop Pods made out of PVC pipe. I don't feel it is worth my money to pay $30 a pop to purchase GW drop pods. I am thus denying GW profit and yet still being able to play my drop pod army.

How is that any different that getting a (poor quality/incomplete) printout of a set of rules for an army because you don't want to pay $30 for some paper and a thin bit of fluff. (heck, the evil codex person is denying GW less profit then I am)

Is the person using a printout more or less evil then someone using a store copy of a codex? Are they more or less evil then my scratch built Drop Pods?

I see your point Thor , however a few points worth mentioning:
- GW's hobby aspect do encourage scratch builds . You are denying a direct profit yes , but scratch builds are what encourages the hobby's aspect. Indirectly , you are still supporting / glorifying GW's hobby crowd.
- I understand if the guy is borrowing a "temporary" codex to start , testing if they'll like the army. But usually when someone is already playing the army , chances of are they are still in the borrowing stage is quite slim.
thus if they dont buy a codex by then , they probably wouldnt at all.

LunaHound wrote:- GW's hobby aspect do encourage scratch builds . You are denying a direct profit yes , but scratch builds are what encourages the hobby's aspect. Indirectly , you are still supporting / glorifying GW's hobby crowd.

But cannot the same argument be made for someone acquiring rules on the cheap so he can play the army? By getting an army, painting, and playing he too is supporting the hobby irregardless of how he accessed the rules.

Both valid and good points to make, however.

Thor665 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:- GW's hobby aspect do encourage scratch builds . You are denying a direct profit yes , but scratch builds are what encourages the hobby's aspect. Indirectly , you are still supporting / glorifying GW's hobby crowd.

But cannot the same argument be made for someone acquiring rules on the cheap so he can play the army? By getting an army, painting, and playing he too is supporting the hobby irregardless of how he accessed the rules.

Both valid and good points to make, however.

The example you give via the "copied codex" might be more fitting along the line of ... Fan Made Chaos Dwarf Army Book , in that essence its similar to scratch builds i guess?

Selling codices and army books does seem important to GW. When an new codex comes out, for instance, you don't necessarily need (many) new models. But you must have the new codex. Plus, a gamer like myself doesn't play all the armies but does like to have all the codices (DE excluded) and I have bought every one of them. I don't think it's acceptable to pirate intellectual property just because you don't play the army and are just curious about it. Peruse it at your FLGS (and don't tell me one is not near, because I live pretty far from a decent one myself and still manage). If you are willing to buy the models to play an army, I can't see not going ahead and getting the dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thor665 wrote:By getting an army, painting, and playing he too is supporting the hobby irregardless of how he accessed the rules.

Ahem, sorry.

I must sdmit the only time ive used one online is ti research different armies before i buy, its no differentto borrowing one from a library and then buy the codex with that army, a load of loose sheets of paper would be hassel, and if every one looked after there dexes they would last for ages lol

Teaching them that it's OK to steal luxuries, if they can't afford them (or even if they can) is not my idea of a good way to live.

Point conceded.

How do people feel about owning the original but using a photocopy?
akin to owning a CD but making a backup.

Ratius wrote:

Teaching them that it's OK to steal luxuries, if they can't afford them (or even if they can) is not my idea of a good way to live.

Point conceded.

How do people feel about owning the original but using a photocopy?
akin to owning a CD but making a backup.

Perfectly acceptable.
Photocopies, or print-outs from downloads are fine by me IF you have the original book. Keeping your (often fragile) Codex safe and in good condition is a good reason to use print-outs.
The problem is the burden of proof. If you've "left your Codex at home" and brought print-outs, should I complain, or take you at your word?

What I don't like much is the excuse I've seen a couple of times here "I only downloaded an illegal copy because I wanted the information in it".
"I only wanted it for the fluff"
"I only wanted it for the army lists"
"I only wanted it for the points costs/upgrades".

Maybe I'm in a minority, but I don't get this idea of "I only wanted to have the stuff without paying for it!" mentality.

Manchu wrote:Ahem, sorry.

Aw, c'mon now, you're acting like it ain't a word.

That particular foible makes me go wulfen. I was astonished to see it in your polished prose, of all people. Only Polonius's grammar slips shock me more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSpike wrote:Maybe I'm in a minority, but I don't get this idea of "I only wanted to have the stuff without paying for it!" mentality.

Agree 100%

Do you own the actual codex? Great.
Are you only using a printout/scan/copy you downloaded so I don't get my grubby hands all over your actual Codex because you'd like to keep your Codex in as good condition as possible? Cool.
Do you mind if I look at the actual Codex if something seems wonky to me? Awesome.

Can we play our game now please?

Bunker wrote:Do you own the actual codex? Great.
Are you only using a printout/scan/copy you downloaded so I don't get my grubby hands all over your actual Codex because you'd like to keep your Codex in as good condition as possible? Great.
Do you mind if I look at the actual Codex if something seems wonky to me? Great.

Can we play our game now please?

Seems reasonable to me. How can there be objections?

Manchu wrote:

Bunker wrote:Do you own the actual codex? Great.
Are you only using a printout/scan/copy you downloaded so I don't get my grubby hands all over your actual Codex because you'd like to keep your Codex in as good condition as possible? Great.
Do you mind if I look at the actual Codex if something seems wonky to me? Great.

Can we play our game now please?

Seems reasonable to me. How can there be objections?

This is the only objection (IMHO):

Bunker wrote:Do you own the actual codex?

1) No, I just have these print-outs.
2) Yes (hehehe, I don't really)

That's taken care of the "see the actual Codex if things seem weird" option at the bottom. People are going to lie to you and you can't always tell. But Bunker's idea seems generally spot on.

Manchu wrote:That particular foible makes me go wulfen. I was astonished to see it in your polished prose, of all people. Only Polonius's grammar slips shock me more.

Alliterative accolades allotments always accrue amicable avowments of avoiding anger arising adverbs.

Though seeing as how I was raised and ed-ju-ma-cated in Florida I'm lucky to understand how to type, much less avoid questionable words.

True.

TBH, the amount of money people spend on miniatures/paint/scenery/etc, a few teef on your own Codex and a copy of the Base rules isn't much.