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I believe that LordofHats is the champion of the 40k camp in this thread.

Hail to you, Lord General!

LordofHats wrote: You assume Star Fleet would suddenly cast aside the prime directive and all that good jazz to start destroying planets simply for convenience. The Imperials once on a planet would dig in, leaving Star Fleet no ability to bombard them from orbit unless their morals suddenly went down the tube and killing civilians is okay in their book now. Watch the show and you'll see the Star Fleet you suggest doesn't exist. They don't blow up planets just cause they don't like the people on them.

1. Prime directive doesnt apply. It protects PRE WARP civilisations or planets that are incapable of space travel.

2. Didnt Janeway get promoted to Admiral for her hand in pretty much destroying the Borg....you know, A RACE, a civilisation that was attempting to destroy the Federation? Feds commit Genocide FTW!


It's also beside THIS point but I figure since Genestealer (you know, big lobsters) claws can get thru Terminator armour....I figure phasers wont have much trouble with it OR power armour.

Deadshane1 wrote:again, No, all I'm saying is that you can vortex a planet OR virus it if you're looking to not harm the real estate. OR set ships phasers on Stun to make security forces jobs easy.

Virus bombing destroys the entire ecosystem. The Imperium has pretty limited terraforming ability, the virus bombs make a world dead to them.

What I'm saying is that Ground Combat in either universe is a needless waste of time, effort, and lives. Ergo...obsolete. 40k doesnt recognise this.

It's not a needless waste, because they need to control the planet's population. Guardsmen grow on their own in huge numbers, they require very little programing prior to use, little manufactured equipment, are reusable much of the time, can seek out and investigate things independently, are close to local problems, provide a visible sign of the Imperium's strength and support. They're extremely efficient at what they're there for.

Because America doesnt have starships in orbit to Phaser-stun all of the Iraqi troops.

Imperial ships can't "phaser stun" populations, but how would "orbital stunning" be a good method of occupying a planet? I mean you can't set it to only stun people who don't like you. You can't just continuously stun everyone on the planet, 24/7.

Hail the Lordofhats it is he who delivers retribution furries and trekkies.

I'll tell you why 40k loses against Star Trek.

Because the security forces stand 25" away from the marine bolters. Also any vehicles stay at least 49" away from any lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote: You can't just continuously stun everyone on the planet, 24/7.

And how do you know this? I thought this was Sci-Fi where pretty much anything could happen?

Deadshane1 wrote:Genestealer (you know, big lobsters)

Deadshane1 wrote:I'll tell you why 40k loses against Star Trek.

Because the security forces stand 25" away from the marine bolters. Also any vehicles stay at least 49" away from any lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote: You can't just continuously stun everyone on the planet, 24/7.

And how do you know this? I thought this was Sci-Fi where pretty much anything could happen?

Since power ratings don't exist for a lance strike, we'll go by the tenous example:

Lance strike = destroying a CONTINENT in one hit...

Using the size of say - AFRICA as a benchmark, and noting complete destruction to a depth of 10 km, we can conclude that the power of one lance shot = the energy to vaporize 300.22 million square km of rock.

So... using a conversion factor of 3 tons / cubic meter, that's 9 x10^14 tons destroyed. Using the ever unreliable Google, an electron beam uses around 2.5J to vaporize one g of rock... This scales to 2.25 x10^21 J to vaporize Africa.

(This is roughly 5x the energy consumption of the entire world... it was 5 x10^20 J in 2008.)

Converting to Megatons: 538157.27 Megatons per shot.

DON'T MESS WITH THE SPEHSS EMPRAH. The laws of physics don't apply!

-edit- As an engineer, this kind of fiction is an affront to my sensibilities, as short of using magic, this kind of power expenditure is not only infeasable at best, but downright ridiculous at worst. Talking matter / antimatter reactions being highly efficient, where the aforementioned 1.5kg of each only results in 65MT, you'd need 12.4 TONS each of matter / antimatter to achieve our one lance shot. Unfortunately, the Imperium doesn't use matter / antimatter reactors.

The Imperium uses fusion reactors - technology in its infancy now, so there is no way to accurately determine what would be needed for sustained lance fire. The energy needed is equivalent to 1% of our planetary reserves of U238 in fast fission reactors - If one assumes a 10x efficiency boost to fusion we're still talking insane infrastructure.

I'd hate to see what the Orks build on their days off!

(Everything in 40k is XBOX HUEG, but that's part of the fun; it sort of works, when you have an empire of a million planets.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'd hate to see what the Orks build on their days off!

More Dakka!

And how do you know this? I thought this was Sci-Fi where pretty much anything could happen?

Oh, so I can make it up as I go along? Sweet. The Emperor is a 5000 Mile high super giant who can breath in space and eat entire worlds. His coming is foretold by a shiny metal man riding a surf board... I've read this somewhere before.

Since you like to just talk and give no supporting evidence to back up your claims I'll do the same.

Deadshane1 wrote:No my arguement is size doesnt matter.

And it wasn't the point I was addressing.

Yea, in real life, but we're not talking about real life...are we? We're talking about Science Fiction. Where you really dont have to "Prove" anything at all.

Yet we're discussing combat tactics between two factions. Standard concepts seem applicable, and the fact is that size does matter even in Star Trek. Borg cubes are nigh unstoppable simply because they're so big, and the Federation has had many problems dealing with larger more heavily armed opponents over the course of the series. To simply assume size doesn't matter seems improper especially when you give no reason for why it doesn't matter other than "i say so."

Denying that the Eldar use their superior technology to survive doesnt even deserve a retort.

Also, thank you for bringing up another reason that the Imperium wouldnt be able to wipe out the Feds...not only due to the Tech issue, but they're also embattled on all sides.

'Preciate it.

Saying they survive simply because of their technology and they magically exist in a bubble where all other factors don't apply doesn't deserve much of a retort, but I gave one anyway which you seem to have simply shrugged off without any real thought or argument other than "You're wrong cause I say so." The Eldar survive in 40k because everyone is busy fighting someone else and they exist on the fringe of the galaxy where you have to go through a lot of stuff to reach them. That has saved them from being wiped out, not a myth of their technological superiority, which, were they so superior, why are they still dying out?

We're discussing the Imperium vs Star Fleet indeed so we can cast aside the embattled on all sides idea. We've already magically transported them to another universe (and 38,000 into the past), so to suggest this as a point when discussing a war between the two seems a little pointless. We've already put the two into a bubble, there's no pulling one side out of it just because.

If you do not know the difference between a laser and a phaser, why are you even taking part in this discussion?

Perhaps you need to look up what a laser is?

You have little knowledge of Star Trek from what I've seen, and make constant logical fallacies as well as give no support to your claims, why are you taking part in the discussion? See, I can be a dick too. The answer to both questions is because it's fun and obviously we enjoy it. So maybe you should stop the rudeness? The only one who has been insulting and rude thus far is you.

Are we talking about two factions being at war and their capacity to destroy each other? Or are we going to begin going into the morals and philosophical implications of what they're doing? I thought we were simply talking about the ability of these two factions to make war.

Lastly, please try some decaf....you're getting a little too into this with your posts beginning to get borderline rude. We're just all nerding out here.

As I said earlier in the thread if you bothered to read at all, what's the point in discussing Federation vs Imperium if the Federation isn't going to fight like the Federation? We already know the Federation has no ability to make war seeing as they have no "warships" and tend to just sit around until they get attacked and then have poor battlefield planning and organization from most of the battles shown in the series and movies so yeah I guess we could just discuss the raw war making ability of the two factions but since the Federation isn't really a war machine I don't see how they'd fair any better.

PS: Again. The only one being rude and insulting is you.

Deadshane wrote:again, No, all I'm saying is that you can vortex a planet OR virus it if you're looking to not harm the real estate. OR set ships phasers on Stun to make security forces jobs easy.

What I'm saying is that Ground Combat in either universe is a needless waste of time, effort, and lives. Ergo...obsolete. 40k doesnt recognise this.

If we're discussing the war marking ability of two sides as you seem to think, why would you throw out a perfectly valid tactic that is just ignored in the Star Trek universe? According to your argument we're free to throw out anything that doesn't make sense, so: Warp Travel, being impossible given the power generation of Star Fleet ships makes no sense so they can't go to warp. See what happens? Just because it doesn't make sense isn't grounds to throw the idea out. And you continue to ignore the points others make and restate the same things without any real rebuttal. We've pointed out that you can't occupy a planet with ships in orbit in either universe. The difference is that Star Trek puts more focus into space combat and as such has little ground forces leaving it weak on a side the Imperium is very strong in. Instead of simply disregarding this because you say it is "obsolete" with no reason given for why you should explain?

How can I occupy a planet without putting troops on the ground?

Very little in either universe makes much sense so if we start throwing things out based on how reasonable they are all we get is the Emperor and Kirk having a slap fight over the last human woman in existence... wait, that actually be kind of cool XD.

The last time the Emperor got into a slap fight over a woman he ended up being put on the golden throne.

And then that woman turns out to be a Q.
And laughs in both of their faces and walks away with Chuck Norris.

Sanctjud wrote:And then that woman turns out to be a Q.
And laughs in both of their faces and walks away with Chuck Norris.

Makes me laugh. That is something I'd see Q doing just for kicks too XD.

Orkeosaurus wrote:The last time the Emperor got into a slap fight over a woman he ended up being put on the golden throne.

Indeed. Sanguninius was very pretty

...

keezus wrote:-edit- As an engineer, this kind of fiction is an affront to my sensibilities, as short of using magic, this kind of power expenditure is not only infeasable at best, but downright ridiculous at worst. Talking matter / antimatter reactions being highly efficient, where the aforementioned 1.5kg of each only results in 65MT, you'd need 12.4 TONS each of matter / antimatter to achieve our one lance shot. Unfortunately, the Imperium doesn't use matter / antimatter reactors.

The Imperium uses fusion reactors - technology in its infancy now, so there is no way to accurately determine what would be needed for sustained lance fire. The energy needed is equivalent to 1% of our planetary reserves of U238 in fast fission reactors - If one assumes a 10x efficiency boost to fusion we're still talking insane infrastructure.

There is a reason why the Imperiums ships are so massive. And it's nothing to do with small epeen ;P It's to power those continent levelling pewpew beams.

Edit- MUAHAHAHA Ninjaquote!

GWAR: Just moved my -edit- to the previous quote.

It gets even better...

Imperial ships have shields right? So the void shields need to be able to repulse 0.5 Million Megaton shots. I'm not even going to go into how this is utterly slowed.

:( *shake fist* :(

What IS the ground combat capability of the Federation?
Do they have any armoured vehichled perse? Ones that could match up to a Leman Russ?

This is the ground combat capability of the Federation.

Their hand phasers are reputed to be able to vaporize 10 cubic meters of rock... but that's not remotely feasable.

It's called a Shuttle?

Is there some sort of energy or ammo in a phaser?
If you use it on a very high setting (as oppoesed to stun) will it run out of juice?

LordofHats wrote:
So your arguement is, that a photon torpedo can destroy things many times its size, so it could destroy the Death Star.......?

Did you even SEE Star Wars?


(your arguements are loaded with this sort of stuff btw, its why I keep jumping around)

Keezus is right. The energy requirements of most of the things in sci-fi are insane XD. Some people have actually tried to create workable theories on war travel but the calculated energy needed greatly exceeds the output of Star Trek ships, and most of these theories present assume solutions for unsolved problems like the Einstein Field. Even the way ships maneuver (barrel rolls, loop-de-loops and other fancy moves) in most science fiction is impossible doe to the nature of space.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
What IS the ground combat capability of the Federation?
Do they have any armoured vehichled perse? Ones that could match up to a Leman Russ?

They don't, which was kind of my point. No Star Trek race has ever really shown a size able ground force, the Federation having never showed signs of any to my knowledge. Those we've seen are usually completely unprotected and carry only small arms (Cardassians, Romulans, Klingons etc). I can't think of there ever being any mention of tanks or other armored vehicles in the series, though they could use shuttle craft as air support (I think there's a DS9 episode where they did that).

Is there some sort of energy or ammo in a phaser?
If you use it on a very high setting (as oppoesed to stun) will it run out of juice?

They have battaries but I think they recharge over time on their own. I do know you can overload a phaser and it'll blow up in your hand XD. That's a bad day right there.

No matter what it's not as awesome as the lasguns. So many uses other than killing.

It recharges by the campfire!!

______________

I would not want a phaser...I wouldn't be able to distinguish it from my cell phone...

Do we know what kind of fusion is being used on Imperial Ships? It's possible that it's a type of fusion that's far different from the kind we know. The largest Imperial battleships are usually old as hell too, probably with some serious Dark Age technology.

Dark Age technology is some pretty crazy stuff, probably beyond most of Star Trek's capabilities. (That's where humanity really came into it's own from a technological standpoint.) Just look at that Dark Angel guy's jetbike, or at vortex weaponry, or at some of the other things the AdMech keeps behind closed doors.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Dark Age technology is some pretty crazy stuff, probably beyond most of Star Trek's capabilities. (That's where humanity really came into it's own from a technological standpoint.) Just look at that Dark Angel guy's jetbike, or at vortex weaponry, or at some of the other things the AdMech keeps behind closed doors.

Soul Spear XD. A black hole in the palm of your hand... Though why the guy holding it doesn't get sucked in is a good question...

PS: The Death Star was destroyed by a Proton torpedo, not a Photon Torpedo. And It wasn't the torpedo that really did it it was the explosion in the exhaust port causing a chain reaction. I still don't see how you're draw the conclusion that a randomly shot Photon Torpedo would blow the Death Star to bits, or what relevance it has to the discussion of Imperium vs Star Fleet. See Straw-Man argument.

40k and Star Trek are completly different time period

Are there any really important planet surface buildings or bases of operation?

Would Imperial Assassins be useful, or is everything important to Starfleet... in space/space stations?

Sanctjud wrote:Are there any really important planet surface buildings or bases of operation?

Would Imperial Assassins be useful, or is everything important to Starfleet... in space/space stations?

Star Fleet has some ground based facilities (like on Earth) but a lot of their stuff seems to go on in really big orbiting space stations like Deep Space Nine. Assassin's could be useful I guess. Sneak them onto some ship, dock it with a space station and let them have a blast XD.

Callidus as Kirk...much lolcakes.